Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part 2

[Habit11]

This team need a d-man like Murray. A big-strong-mean guy who can play great on pk and clear the crease, while providind some physical backup to our smaller players.

Yoy cannot have 6 PK Subban on a team. No NHL team got that.

No team needs a dman who is a terrible skater, and can't do anything positive with the puck or a dman who bleeds chances and goals against. He excels at pinning the puck against the boards and being the "fat kid goalie" type on the PK, I'll give him that. The rest of his game hurts the team. Is Diaz one of 6 Subbans? Absolutely not, but he is unquestionably better than Murray.

 

[habitue*]

A team with 6 PK Subbans would be the best team in the NHL, assuming they could find competent forwards and still fit under the cap.

Unfortunately, with that not being possible, you instead go for the best players available for the defense.

They would not block many shots...

A D-Corp, like the rest of the team, is made of specialists. Murray is one, and a competent one. You need a balance.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I always had the perception that Diaz was worth a 4th or 5th round pick, which is probably what Weise could fetch in a trade. The difference is, we would not have been able to convert Diaz for any greater value than we did now since we shipped him off to a team that had an immediate need.

At the deadline, we may have not have had the opportunity to move him. I see Weise as a "market has spoken" kind of return -- if MB and his lackeys could have had more for him, they would not have settled for just Weise. All these articles about how Diaz is an undervalued asset and is metrically and analytically compelling are interesting but carry little weight where market perception or willingness to pay is not there.

You realize, of course, that it's a full month until the trade deadline, right?

I'd say it's the unwillingness to trust Diaz in a regular role, his depreciated evaluation within the Habs' defensive corps, the Habs' perception of Diaz as a liability during typically those more physical games and playoffs (should they get there), the return of Drewiske, their choice of going with Murray's grit and size and other Hamilton defensemen ready for prime time, and above all, the idea that Diaz might be lost for nothing as the trading deadline is close at hand, all contributed to getting him dealt now.

Okay, if fancy stats say he was probably no worse than the Habs' 4th best defenseman so far this year, how negatively could that possibly have affected his trade value? Could playing much better than your cap hit suggests negatively affect your value? How about being used "improperly"? Major possible effect. Being benched for "no reason" (no one has ever seen that before, so it would be weird, right?) Major possible effect. Continuing to be sat while spamming other, seemingly even more patient, GMs' phones for a week... or two? Major possible effect.

 

[googlymoogly]

Oh, I know that's what the org decided. I'm arguing that the org were being stupid.



They've been getting pasted 5-on-5, but sure, it was aesthetically pleasing.



You don't see a problem with moving a rookie to his wrong side to cover an underperforming veteran, when they could've kept a superior defenseman that would've allowed said rookie to develop more comfortably on his good side?

Beaulieu is only a RD because the Habs wanted to play Murray rather than Diaz. So the "Diaz was redundant because Beaulieu is a RD" argument doesn't hold water. Beaulieu is not, in fact, a RD.

Did you watch playoffs last year when Diaz looked like garbage and Murray played well for the Pens? Diaz was scared and losing puck battles all the time on the other hand Murray was doing the scaring. When Emelin hits an opponent he gets challenged because teams know he should not be fighting, when Murray hits someone no one on the other team seems to want to do anything about it. There's a reason why Diaz gets almost no return while a less skilled guy like Gill got us a second rounder. The playoffs is when it counts and big defensemen help you win the battles in the trenches, they are valuable during this time of the year.

 

[MathMan]

Well, you were actually arguing that NB didn't replace Diaz, but oh well.

I was arguing that there was no need for Beaulieu to replace Diaz and that they were not mutually exclusive.

Develop more comfortably... ok and you know that how? I think a Beaulieu-Diaz pairing would get absolutely manhandled down the stretch here. How's that for comfort? Poor Carey if that pairing was on the ice against STL, SJ, LA, BOS, OTT etc..

Even if it were true, and I don't think it is, I think Price would prefer it to trying to pick up after Murray versus offensive minnows.

Well they'd quite obviously have to want to play Beaulieu over diaz as well, no? Hahaha

They clearly want to play Beaulieu over Diaz. That's not a problem. The problem is wanting to play Murray over Diaz, too, which is ultimately what this transaction boils down to. Diaz should have been playing over Murray before Beaulieu showed up and he should have been playing over Murray after Beaulieu showed up. Beaulieu emerging only meant that they had too many defensemen in the press box and they, quite simply, traded the wrong one.

 

[Adriatic]

I'll just spell it out for all of you who can't seem to get it.


Markov - Subban
gorges - Emelin
Beaulieu - Diaz


Or even...

Markov - Subban
Gorges - Diaz (You know, that sweet second pairing that played really good for us until it was broken up)
beaulieu - Emelin



No, Murray does NOT need to play. Your arguments for toughness, bigness whatever doesn't matter when we're getting more goals scored on us and losing more games when he's on the ice.

Is this another one of your 1st round exit line-ups. A junk team like Ottawa would have an even easier time than last year getting through this butter. Beaulieu-Diaz is laughable on the same pair lol. Thank god you're not in charge!

 

[rafal majka]

This team need a d-man like Murray. A big-strong-mean guy who can play great on pk and clear the crease, while providind some physical backup to our smaller players.

You mean a guy that can't skate, can't pass, can't clear the zone, almost always puts himself out of position when he makes a hit, is a complete and total disaster 5-on-5, but gets to **** Tiger Woods ex-wife.

 

[417]

So... you see Beaulieu's future on the right side, and you see that as a positive? That's a pretty tough side to argue for a LH defenseman whose path of development to the NHL so far has been, to my knowledge, almost exclusively on the left side.Murray is the one with the experience of playing either side, and the one of the two that I actually see being swapped according to the roles laid out for everyone before the games. Coupled with the known commodities of his strengths (and weaknesses, for sure), obviously Murray isn't part of any "competition" involving Diaz, Beaulieu, or even Bouillon or Emelin.

Obviously they're going with Subban/Markov, and Gorges/Emelin, leaving Beaulieu/(Murray or Bouillon - formerly Diaz), right? Even if it ends up Beaulieu/Gorges (because I don't think Emelin's play is going to get him past Gorges OR Beaulieu, do you?), that leaves any two of Murray, Emelin, and Bouillon. I don't see a 3rd pairing in that mix that doesn't get better with Diaz instead, and Murray can still be inserted on either side as called upon.

I also don't see any problem with the scenario that Beaulieu gets sheltered a bit on a regular 3rd pairing with an all-round "veteran" (a little respect for someone with 62 international appearances as a professional, alone) guy like Diaz (as opposed to the alternatives implicating Beaulieu too predictably as the guy responsible for dealing with the puck). Obviously people agree and disagree, but I still digest this all the same way 24 hours later as I did when I first found out... poorly.

You'd be hard pressed to find a LHS dman who hasn't played the right side at some point in his life.

Beaulieu is a young player trying to make his mark in the NHL and find a role, he has to learn to play both sides. He'll become a much better dman because of it.

This isn't really a big issue to be honest. Ideally yes, he should be playing left side, but his mobilty actually is an asset playing is off-side

 

[habitue*]

No team needs a dman who is a terrible skater, and can't do anything positive with the puck or a dman who bleeds chances and goals against. He excels at pinning the puck against the boards and being the "fat kid goalie" type on the PK, I'll give him that. The rest of his game hurts the team. Is Diaz one of 6 Subbans? Absolutely not, but he is unquestionably better than Murray.

Not in the make up of a balanced d-Corp in Montreal. He might do better in Vancouver where they got way more size on D.

I am sorry. But Diaz cannot play like Murray , as Murray cannot play like Diaz. But as a peice of the puzzle, Murray fits better on the actual Habs d-corp and meets more urgent requirements. The guy has tons of experience and poise, and it will be very precious down the road in the Playoffs.

 

[HankyZetts]

I see Weise as a "market has spoken" kind of return

Absolutely.

What's funny is for all the criticism we give Therrien, even he recognized that Murray needed to be sheltered defensively and Diaz did not. Why he drew the conclusions he did from that, I do not know, but except for on the PK, where Murray has, to his credit, trended upward, his usage is more parallel to Parros than it is to a traditional, competent stay at home defenseman.

Murray is what he is man. He's slow as heck and needs to be sheltered, but what he brings is very important to a team in such a physical sport. The problem here has always been that players of such ilk are impossible to quantify onto a spreadsheet, so the fans who live and die by the numbers will think that a Beaulieu-Diaz pairing is a smart idea in the playoffs...

 

[rafal majka]

A junk team like Ottawa would have an even easier time than last year getting through this butter.

Why did Ottawa defeat the Habs last year?

 

[habitue*]

You'd be hard pressed to find a LHS dman who hasn't played the right side at some point in his life.

Beaulieu is a young player trying to make his mark in the NHL and find a role, he has to learn to play both sides. He'll become a much better dman because of it.

This isn't really a big issue to be honest. Ideally yes, he should be playing left side, but his mobilty actually is an asset playing is off-side

When he was in St-John in the Q, he was playing on the right side very often with Després on the left.

 

[417]

While allowing 36, 35, 36, 35, and 27 shots in those 5 games (and 34 in the game right before that). You're playing with fire when giving up those kind of shot totals night after night, no matter how good your goaltender is playing.

So the lesson in this is Raphael Diaz on his own and of course, minus Douglas Murray...shaves off what? 5 to 8 shots per game off those totals?

Damn...Diaz is some kind of dman

 

[417]

Why did Ottawa defeat the Habs last year?

Mostly because of goaltending...

But for sure, Ottawa's grinding style affected the way Montreal plays...

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Well, you were actually arguing that NB didn't replace Diaz, but oh well.

Though it misses the mark for relevance, it is still true.

Develop more comfortably... ok and you know that how? I think a Beaulieu-Diaz pairing would get absolutely manhandled down the stretch here. How's that for comfort? Poor Carey if that pairing was on the ice against STL, SJ, LA, BOS, OTT etc..

Well, playing consistently on the same side that you've always played is claimed to be easier by every player who has been asked to make the shift and had to answer a question in an interview about it (that's on top of the players that have also simply commented on it, without having gone through it). But when you load up with a guy like Murray to handle some playoff time if necessary, your 3rd pairing's most important role is to get you to the playoffs. Diaz has 34 points in 96 games against Eastern Conference teams. Not bad for a 3rd pairing guy who can perform on special teams as well.

Well they'd quite obviously have to want to play Beaulieu over diaz as well, no? Hahaha

They're more invested in Beaulieu's future and development, yes. Who would argue? Is this about any choice between them, though? Not impossible, but seems by far the least plausible. On top of everything else, They. Play. On. Different. Sides. And so they should.

 

[Habs]

Mostly because of goaltending...

But for sure, Ottawa's grinding style affected the way Montreal plays...

They physically dominated us for sure, and Price was average.

 

[LePoche69]

I don't want to defend Murray and its use, but we shouldn't underestimated the importance of the players loving the way the others are playing, sacrificing themselves, etc, and the fact that a team full of players who know their role and are happy to play it is automatically a better team.

All veterans said it after a nice showing in the playoffs. And Therrien, Daignault, Gallant and Bergevin know it.

Like I said, I'm not defending their management and their coaching, but I do recognize that the team slowly looks more united and happy. And it could give something interesting come playoffs time. Murray plays better now, Briere also, Bourque is trying harder... Only Eller seems not entirely happy with the situation, but that could change when Galchenyuk will return.

 

[MathMan]

Murray is on the ice for just over 3 mins per period at even strenght lol

Thank goodness he doesn't play much. The Habs still managed to get outscored 5-17 at 5-on-5 with Murray on the ice, despite him playing so little. That's quite the achievement. I'd hate to know where they'd be if that doubled.

The guys who don't play much are important too. They still need to be better than the opposition's "guys-who-don't-play-much". The goals they score and they allow count as much as the top-liners'.

Why you feel it necessary or justifiable to put all of the Habs problems on a player who is so insignificant in the grand scheme of things, I have no clue.

Diaz is not that insignificant, but he's ultimately a symptom of the deeper problem. The problem is in the philosophy. The problem is that this move is part of a sequence that saw the Habs sign Murray (an awful defenseman), sign Parros (actually a worse player than Murray), implement a dump-and-chase system, then trade Diaz, a superior player, to keep Murray in the lineup, and gradually go from one of the league's better 5-on-5 club to dangerously close to the worst. All to feed the belief that size is a magical quality that will make the team win more even when they play worse.

This is the same philosophy that guided the construction of the Maple Leafs. It's also the philosophy that led the Sabres to self-destruct.

As for Beaulieu playing RD...it's not that uncommon for LD to play RD in the NHL, matter of fact, i'm pretty sure Beaulieu's done it quite a bit in the AHL. In fact, it would be pretty dumb to ask a guy who's already got mobility issues (and that's putting it nicely) to play RD to accommodate a rookie who should be used to playing both sides (and who might have too depending on where this defense goes over the next few years).

Oh, I agree that if you want to have Murray in the lineup, you want to limit the damage and playing him on RD is only going to make things worse. But Murray has no business being in the lineup in the first place, so it's even less sensible to move a rookie to RD just because you insist on keeping him in the lineup.

Again...I blows my mind that Douglas Murray is such a topic of conversation with this team...talk about missing the point.

He's a big problem on his own, but worse, he's emblematic. The problem is the front office's belief that players like Murray are useful. That belief is the crack in the engine block. That Murray is so demonstrably bad and that the org still insists in playing him, even moving other players to make room, points to a pretty nasty long-term problem.

 

[Habit11]

Not in the make up of a balanced d-Corp in Montreal. He might do better in Vancouver where they got way more size on D.

I am sorry. But Diaz cannot play like Murray , as Murray cannot play like Diaz. But as a peice of the puzzle, Murray fits better on the actual Habs d-corp and meets more urgent requirements. The guy has tons of experience and poise, and it will be very precious down the road in the Playoffs.

The Habs' need less size on D than they do compared to upfront. The top 4 are all average size or bigger and Emelin/PK are much tougher to play against than Murray because of their overall capabilities. The Habs may need a guy like Murray, but minus all the things he's terrible at. They could use a guy with Murray's frame, but that player has to at least be able to tread water defensively in terms of GA.

 

[417]

I'm not one of those who's a proponent of 'size over everything'

But a defense corps that includes...

Subban/Gorges/Markov/Emelin/Diaz/Beaulieu...

Ugh...Might as well invite players camp out below our goaline and in front of Price all game long.

 

[MD thaivuN]

Why did Ottawa defeat the Habs last year?

Because the entire team showed up once every 2 games in that series.

 

[rafal majka]

So the lesson in this is Raphael Diaz on his own and of course, minus Douglas Murray...shaves off what? 5 to 8 shots per game off those totals?

No. Just being minus Murray is good enough.

 

[Et le But]

Murray is what he is man. He's slow as heck and needs to be sheltered, but what he brings is very important to a team in such a physical sport. The problem here has always been that players of such ilk are impossible to quantify onto a spreadsheet, so the fans who live and die by the numbers will think that a Beaulieu-Diaz pairing is a smart idea in the playoffs...

I understand why people are willing to give Murray the benefit of the doubt, the man was even on my Habs wish list a few years ago, but he's reached the point where his weaknesses far overshadow what he's good at.

I'm not sure why we are all still arguing this when it's clear most people don't want to be convinced otherwise, but I just can't overlook how badly the team's possession sinks when Murray is on the ice. And for me, things like clearing the crease and hits are supposed to serve the purpose of regaining possession, not give the opposing team another shot the way they do when Murray is on the ice. And yes, having a big guy like Murray out there over a soft player like Diaz will have a psychological effect on the opposition, but whatever the effect, it hasn't been significant enough to see it.

I just don't see how a few extra big hits can make up for giving up that many more scoring chances, especially when Murray is too slow to even make the most of his hitting ability.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/habs-bought-into-a-myth-when-they-dealt-diaz/

That quote by Dave Tippet is exactly how I feel about Murray vs Diaz.

 

[habitue*]

Mostly because of goaltending...

But for sure, Ottawa's grinding style affected the way Montreal plays...

The size of Ottawa players. Only Pageau and maybe Alfredsson were under 6' tall. They got a huge d-corp and big forwards. Playoffs= War, and the habs were not, and are still not very equipped to win one.

 

[habitue*]

I understand why people are willing to give Murray the benefit of the doubt, the man was even on my Habs wish list a few years ago, but he's reached the point where his weaknesses far overshadow what he's good at.

I'm not sure why we are all still arguing this when it's clear most people don't want to be convinced otherwise, but I just can't overlook how badly the team's possession sinks when Murray is on the ice. And for me, things like clearing the crease and hits are supposed to serve the purpose of regaining possession, not give the opposing team another shot the way they do when Murray is on the ice. And yes, having a big guy like Murray out there over a soft player like Diaz will have a psychological effect on the opposition, but whatever the effect, it hasn't been significant enough to see it.

I just don't see how a few extra big hits can make up for giving up that many more scoring chances, especially when Murray is too slow to even make the most of his hitting ability.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/habs-bought-into-a-myth-when-they-dealt-diaz/

That quote by Dave Tippet is exactly how I feel about Murray vs Diaz.

You cannot honesltly say that Murray NOW is worse than Murray from two months ago. The guy had no training camp and was playing one game every 2 or 3, with Bouillon in and out,too.

Stats don't tell the whole story. I am pretty sure the other players on the ice and Price feel more secure with Murray than with Diaz.