Proposal: VAN + BUF

[Hasekperreault23]

Also worth noting is that Elias Pettersson has actually led his team to the playoffs, and produced. It's uncertain if Jack Eichel can do the same. A worry would be that he's grown accustomed to losing a la players on the pre-McDavid Oilers.




Because Elias Pettersson has led his team to the post-season/knows how to win. And don't say that the Canucks have a better roster b/c Sabres fans always claimed player X on the Canucks was inferior to player X on the Sabres. Haha





If you don't want to include his rookie season stats, then go by his current season where he only has two goals.

To say Pettersson is more valuable than Eichel because of playoffs is moronic.Not comparing the two because they are both great but hockey is a team game.One player doesn't decide if that team makes the playoffs.An argument could be made by goaltending.After Buffalo does make the playoffs than the next argument is they will never win the cup with Eichel.It will go on and on
I remember the same thing was said about Yzerman back in the day..its insane

 

[gianni]

To say Pettersson is more valuable than Eichel because of playoffs is moronic.Not comparing the two because they are both great but hockey is a team game.One player doesn't decide if that team makes the playoffs.An argument could be made by goaltending.After Buffalo does make the playoffs than the next argument is they will never win the cup with Eichel.It will go on and on
I remember the same thing was said about Yzerman back in the day..its insane

We can agree to disagree. Some players just aren't winners imo; sometimes it's them, sometimes it's just a perennial poorly assembled team/team culture. Eichel has been the face of the franchise for 6 years though, so it's fair to start wondering...

For example, Taylor Hall and Matt Duchene put up numbers, but I wouldn't want to build a team around them.

 

[Hasekperreault23]

We can agree to disagree. Some players just aren't winners imo; sometimes it's them, sometimes it's just a perennial poorly assembled team/team culture. Eichel has been the face of the franchise for 6 years though, so it's fair to start wondering...

For example, Taylor Hall and Matt Duchene put up numbers, but I wouldn't want to build a team around them.

 

[Hasekperreault23]

We can agree to disagree. Some players just aren't winners imo; sometimes it's them, sometimes it's just a perennial poorly assembled team/team culture. Eichel has been the face of the franchise for 6 years though, so it's fair to start wondering...

For example, Taylor Hall and Matt Duchene put up numbers, but I wouldn't want to build a team around them.

To say Eichel isn't a winner just by the fact he is in the NHL through hard work,dedication and talent is peculiar. Their has been numerous HOF players who never won a Stanley cup but nobody would say they are losers.Eichel can get a 120 points next year,kill penalties and dominate every game but if Buffalo doesn't get a decent goaltending tandem they aren't making the playoffs but that's on Eichel? I agree to disagree I guess...

 

[Samsonite23]

Better to rely on his current performance and health situation than soley handpicking his best season to reflect his value. Not everyone recovers 100% from a herniated disc btw, his current play could be him giving his all. No guarantee his health improves.




6pts more. Big whoop. Elias Pettersson is the face of the franchise and is worth multiple JT Millers.

But if you really feel that way, I'd gladly discuss, JT Miller for Jack Eichel

Did you forget about the part of my post referencing where Eichel still had more ppg than Pettersson with that herniated disc in his neck? Imagine how good he’ll be when he actually gets it treated....

Don’t want me use his LAST season to analyze his play (makes total sense ). OK, what about the we judge them on their last 2 seasons? Or their last 3 seasons then? See who comes out on top in those scenarios? Oh yeah, it’s still Eichel.

 

[Moose and Squirrel]

Buffalo takes this and runs. I don't think too many teams are offering up potential lottery picks on top of their franchise player for Eichel right now. When the inevitable trade request becomes public, no player of Pettersson's caliber is going to even be on the table

to be clear tho... if you're adding Holtby AND Ericsson... there'd have to be a bigger add for Buffalo to think about it

 

[mriswith]

Did you forget about the part of my post referencing where Eichel still had more ppg than Pettersson with that herniated disc in his neck? Imagine how good he’ll be when he actually gets it treated....

Don’t want me use his LAST season to analyze his play (makes total sense ). OK, what about the we judge them on their last 2 seasons? Or their last 3 seasons then? See who comes out on top in those scenarios? Oh yeah, it’s still Eichel.

Pettersson was playing injured this year as well... and as for the previous seasons to this, Pettersson is also two way monster. Advanced stat models had Pettersson as league MVP last year... argue with it and argue over PPG all you want, there's no motivation for Van to do this trade.

Trading Pettersson for Eichel makes no sense for Vancouver. Pettersson is younger so suits our contention window better, we aren't winning a cup anytime soon. Pointless for us to trade for Eichel who will be that much older when Van actually can contend. Even if you think Eichel is slightly better than EP, which is debatable, two extra years of Pettersson's prime during a window where Van actually contends>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>whatever minor difference you believe exists.

I get why Buffalo fans would love this trade though.

 

[Samsonite23]

Pettersson was playing injured this year as well... and as for the previous seasons to this, Pettersson is also two way monster. Advanced stat models had Pettersson as league MVP last year... argue with it and argue over PPG all you want, there's no motivation for Van to do this trade.

Trading Pettersson for Eichel makes no sense for Vancouver. Pettersson is younger so suits our contention window better, we aren't winning a cup anytime soon. Pointless for us to trade for Eichel who will be that much older when Van actually can contend. Even if you think Eichel is slightly better than EP, which is debatable, two extra years of Pettersson's prime during a window where Van actually contends>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>whatever minor difference you believe exists.

I get why Buffalo fans would love this trade though.

I never said Vancouver should or shouldn't do this trade.... not sure where you got that from.

The guy who proposed it isn't on the Sabres board either, so I assume he's not a Sabres fan.

 

[NextGoalIsHuge]

Call me an old softy but I don't like it when Sabres and Canucks fans clash. We got that shared history. Always pulled for you guys when it wasn't against us. So, it stings to see both fanbases nit-pick each others' best player.

That said, Eichel is great. I'm just too happy with EP40 to consider moving him at this point. Team chemistry is a thing and EP seems well suited to this young group we have.

Don't know Eichel, so I cannot say about him. Not willing to roll the dice for a few extra potential points.

 

[PettersonHughes]

Why not use the same amount of seasons to compare Eichel and Pettersson's scoring? Could that be because Eichel blows Pettersson out of the water if you compare them fairly?

Also, there's no dispute about the value of +/-: it has none.

First of all, taking averages of two players' entire careers is not unfair if you're comparing points/ game, but since you're going there, prepare for egg on your face.

Eichel's first season: 56 points in 81 games (0.69 points/ game)
Eichel's second season: 57 points in 61 games (0.93 points)
Eichel's 3rd season: 64 points in 67 games (0.97)

Pettersson's first season: 66 in 71 (0.93)
Pettersson's second season: 66 in 68 (0.97)
Pettersson's 3rd season: 21 in 26 (0.81)

Right. Eichel's first three totally blows Pettersson's first three out of the water even though they had matching 0.93 and 0.97 point/ season rates, while Petey's 3rd, at 0.81 is still greater than the 3rd of Eichel's seasons at 0.69.

You were saying?

 

[tsujimoto74]

First of all, taking averages of two players' entire careers is not unfair if you're comparing points/ game, but since you're going there, prepare for egg on your face.

Eichel's first season: 56 points in 81 games (0.69 points/ game)
Eichel's second season: 57 points in 61 games (0.93 points)
Eichel's 3rd season: 64 points in 67 games (0.97)

Pettersson's first season: 66 in 71 (0.93)
Pettersson's second season: 66 in 68 (0.97)
Pettersson's 3rd season: 21 in 26 (0.81)

Right. Eichel's first three totally blows Pettersson's first three out of the water even though they had matching 0.93 and 0.97 point/ season rates, while Petey's 3rd, at 0.81 is still greater than the 3rd of Eichel's seasons at 0.69.

You were saying?

Except Eichel played in the NHL in his D+1 season, while Pettersson spent a bonus year in Europe. So at the same ages, you have matching points per game for the first 2 seasons, but the year following Pettersson falls off while Eichel looked like a legit Hart contender (until he got injured).

Also, the original comparison was Pettersson's first 2 seasons vs. Eichel's entire career. Definition of cherry-picking.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Canucks pass.

Would not trade EP straight up for Eichel.

 

[PettersonHughes]

Except Eichel played in the NHL in his D+1 season, while Pettersson spent a bonus year in Europe. So at the same ages, you have matching points per game for the first 2 seasons, but the year following Pettersson falls off while Eichel looked like a legit Hart contender (until he got injured).

Also, the original comparison was Pettersson's first 2 seasons vs. Eichel's entire career. Definition of cherry-picking.

Talk about cherry picking with your first paragraph, along with moving goalposts to make your argument more favorable. Just because a guy started earlier vs. later by a year doesn't mean that comparing their first three seasons each (which was what YOU challenged me to do initially) isn't a legitimate way to compare guys. If the League even treats Panarin as a rookie at 24 and permits him to win the Calder then and Kaprizov looks poised to do the same, who are you to say that two players' first three seasons can't be compared, just because your player started 1 year younger?

Also, how favorable is it that you'd conveniently trim off the lowest point/ game season for Eichel, even though in that case his 0.96 and all his "potential Hart contender glory" is just a slight 0.15 points/ game above Petey in his worst season. If anything that just goes to show how close Petey in his "falling off" still is compared to Jack in his "Hart contender" status. Both are elite #1 C's, so don't try to make Petey look like crap just to elevate your own $10 million dollar #1 C when you have no proof to fully back his superiority.

 

[Hasekperreault23]

Call me an old softy but I don't like it when Sabres and Canucks fans clash. We got that shared history. Always pulled for you guys when it wasn't against us. So, it stings to see both fanbases nit-pick each others' best player.

That said, Eichel is great. I'm just too happy with EP40 to consider moving him at this point. Team chemistry is a thing and EP seems well suited to this young group we have.

Don't know Eichel, so I cannot say about him. Not willing to roll the dice for a few extra potential points.

I agree both should stay with their respective teams and yes I pull for Vancouver as well for the same reasons.

 

[TehDoak]

You wanna get nuts? Lets get nuts:

To Vancouver: Eichel, Ristolainen, Reinhart
To Buffalo: Petterson, Boeser, Eriksson (50% retained), Juolevi, 2021 1st

 

[Cogburn]

T

You wanna get nuts? Lets get nuts:

To Vancouver: Eichel, Ristolainen, Reinhart
To Buffalo: Petterson, Boeser, Eriksson (50% retained), Juolevi, 2021 1st

That's so nutty I think everyone who read it now suffers from a nut allergy.

Bananas too.

And guano (bat ****).

Puns are fun.

Also, no thank you on the offer.

 

[Zach716]

You wanna get nuts? Lets get nuts:

To Vancouver: Eichel, Ristolainen, Reinhart
To Buffalo: Petterson, Boeser, Eriksson (50% retained), Juolevi, 2021 1st

We do not want to get nuts.

 

[Luck 6]

I don’t think Pettersson and Eichel are that far apart in terms of what they bring on the ice. Eichel is a bit better, but Pettersson is two years younger, and I’m confident we’ll get him signed long term for less than 10mil due to the flat cap, so to me that almost even tips the scale in Pettersson’s favour. He also just fits the age of our rebuild better, as he likely does with BUF as well.

Holtby is whatever, we can buy him out for a minimal loss so dumping him has very little value to us. Dumping Eriksson is nice, but we won’t trade a 1st to get him off the books only 1 year earlier.

All in all this just doesn’t make sense for Vancouver, even though I really like Eichel.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

to even start Eriksson isn’t part of it. No f***ing cap dumps coming to buffalo

to srart it has to be Vancouver’s 1st thus year and Petersen++

Any player with the kind of salary Eichel has needs cap dumps going back, especially in a frozen cap era. Eriksson and Holtby don't matter since both have a year left on their contract and Buffalo isn't a playoff team next season. So taking them is basically just wasting the Pegula's money.

With that said, I'd much prefer Pettersson and our first. Granted, this is actually a fairly good proposal.

 

[TehDoak]

First of all, taking averages of two players' entire careers is not unfair if you're comparing points/ game, but since you're going there, prepare for egg on your face.

Eichel's first season: 56 points in 81 games (0.69 points/ game)
Eichel's second season: 57 points in 61 games (0.93 points)
Eichel's 3rd season: 64 points in 67 games (0.97)

Pettersson's first season: 66 in 71 (0.93)
Pettersson's second season: 66 in 68 (0.97)
Pettersson's 3rd season: 21 in 26 (0.81)

Right. Eichel's first three totally blows Pettersson's first three out of the water even though they had matching 0.93 and 0.97 point/ season rates, while Petey's 3rd, at 0.81 is still greater than the 3rd of Eichel's seasons at 0.69.

You were saying?

Uhh, let's use ACTUAL comparisons:

Peterson:

Draft year+0: 0 NHL games played
D+1: 66 in 71 (0.93)
D+2: 66 in 68 (0.97)
D+3: 21 in 26 (0.81)

Eichel:

D+0: 56 in 81 (0.69 points/ game)
D+1: 57 in 61 (0.93 )
D+2: 64 in 67 (0.97)
D+3: 82 in 77 (1.06)

That is the apples to apples comparison. Pettersson regressed in year D+3, Eichel accelerated.

I think Petterson is a helluva player. And yes, he might reach Eichel's healthy production level (Eichel is 1.1 PPG over the last 2 season), he certainly has the capability.

However, all things equal, I'd think Eichel is a bit of a better player. Petterson has had a better group around him (Buffalo never had the offense support behind Eichel from Horvat/Miller that Pettersson had), and I'd certainly take the Vancouver forward group from last year over anything Buffalo had in the last few seasons.

I honestly don't want to trade Eichel, but if he 100% wants out, a deal for a player like Petterson is what I'm looking for. Something similar to Turgeon for Lafontaine where they are both great players, but the teams aren't happy with the results and looking to turn the locker room upside down without a full rebuild.

 

[TehDoak]

T


That's so nutty I think everyone who read it now suffers from a nut allergy.

Bananas too.

And guano (bat ****).

Puns are fun.

Also, no thank you on the offer.

We do not want to get nuts.

If both teams fans hate it I must be onto something

 

[PettersonHughes]

Uhh, let's use ACTUAL comparisons:

Peterson:
Draft year+0: 0 NHL games played
D+1: 66 in 71 (0.93)
D+2: 66 in 68 (0.97)
D+3: 21 in 26 (0.81)

Eichel:

D+0: 56 in 81 (0.69 points/ game)
D+1: 57 in 61 (0.93 )
D+2: 64 in 67 (0.97)
D+3: 82 in 77 (1.06)

That is the apples to apples comparison. Pettersson regressed in year D+3, Eichel accelerated.

I think Petterson is a helluva player. And yes, he might reach Eichel's healthy production level (Eichel is 1.1 PPG over the last 2 season), he certainly has the capability.

However, all things equal, I'd think Eichel is a bit of a better player. Petterson has had a better group around him (Buffalo never had the offense support behind Eichel from Horvat/Miller that Pettersson had), and I'd certainly take the Vancouver forward group from last year over anything Buffalo had in the last few seasons.

I honestly don't want to trade Eichel, but if he 100% wants out, a deal for a player like Petterson is what I'm looking for. Something similar to Turgeon for Lafontaine where they are both great players, but the teams aren't happy with the results and looking to turn the locker room upside down without a full rebuild.

I disagree with your method of calculation (rookie season should be stacked against rookie season, whether it's D+0 or whatnot) but that's where we'll need to agree to disagree. I addressed it in my most recent comment about how the league views Kaprizov and other older rookies as Calder eligible just as 18 year olds are, so if the League counts 1st seasons (D+ however many as long as it's before the player turns 26 by Sept of that year) as the criteria for being rookie, then subsequently sophomore, etc. we should do the same.

I can agree that Eichel is a BIT better (Jack's probably in the McDavid stratosphere at least in his draft year) and Petey has had a higher-achieving group around, but I don't think that supporting cast argument could be used against him when it comes to who's a better player (I mean if Jack posted prime-Mario type numbers without Dahlin/ Olofsson/ Reinhart then he'd win this discussion by a landslide, but their numbers are close and he has the best line-mates Buffalo has to offer and a #1 generational D in Dahlin, just as Petey has in Vancouver -- Reinhart and Olofsson also each scored in the 0.7+ points/ game range so it's not like Jack didn't have first liners to work with).

In short, I think player value wise (ignoring cap hit in this case) Petey would probably be a good straight up trade target -- someone projected to be generational but isn't quite performing to that and who may want to leave their team for an all star would be fairly even, and at most it's a small add from Vancouver (no 1st's or top prospects).

 

[McVespa99]

I think the cap dump goes on the other side.

More like :
To Van : Eichel, Oposo
To Buff: Petterson, 2022 1st, 2023 1st

Much closer

You cant really believe this????

 

[WidgitRibbit]

Starting to believe these thread titles are click bait. Pretty annoying to be honest.

 

[zcaptain]

What about............

Pettersson

for

Cozens, 2021-1st, 2022-1st