True #1 D-man - Why not?

[The Hanging Jowl]

I'm 55. I honestly can't name a single true No. 1 D on this team since I started watching them in the 70s. I guess Salming would be the closest but not really. Why? Why have we never had a Neidermeyer or Pronger or Lidstrom or Hedman? Is it just hitting the lottery to get those guys or is the franchise so inept they simply can't produce one? I've been wondering about this for quite awhile.

Click to read more...

 

[Mr_Fun]

Salming was a number 1 D in the seventies. He was pretty much a 2nd team allstar, every year. By the 80s you could maybe argue he was less than a numero 1. After that, we've never really had that big name D guy, other than perhaps picking up a Leech rental at the deadline.

 

[thewave]

I'm 55. I honestly can't name a single true No. 1 D on this team since I started watching them in the 70s. I guess Salming would be the closest but not really. Why? Why have we never had a Neidermeyer or Pronger or Lidstrom or Hedman? Is it just hitting the lottery to get those guys or is the franchise so inept they simply can't produce one? I've been wondering about this for quite awhile.

We have the best seats for OHL observation. We have access to the best coaches in the leagues. We have access to the best scouts in the game...

Can't develop Goalies, Cs, Ds.. pretty good at wingers though. Obviously the team is doing things very wrong foundationally

It needs stripped bare and a skeleton crew of the best in Ontario need to go to work without the noise.

 

[Malachi Crunch]

Yeah, it sucks. Especially when watching Sanderson turn into one.

 

[leafsfan5]

Off the top of my head, last time teams had an elite 1D:

Anaheim: Neidermeyer
Boston: McAvoy
Buffalo: Dahlin
Calgary: Giordano
Carolina: ?
Chicago: Keith
Colorado: Makar
Colombus: Werenski
Dallas: Heiskanen
Detroit: Lidstrom
Edmonton: Pronger for literally one year, before then Coffee?
Florida: None? Depends how you rate Boumeester/Forsling
LA: Doughty
Minnesota: Suter
Montreal: Weber
Nashville: Josi
Devils: Niedermeyer (2002)
NYI: Potvin? Dobson is good but not a "true 1D"
NYR: Fox
Ottawa: Karlsson
Philadelphia: Pronger
Pittsburgh: Letang
SJ: Burns
Seattle: N/a
St. Louis: Pietrangelo
Tampa: Hedman
Utah: OEL
Vancouver: Hughes
Vegas: Pietrangelo
Washington: Carlson
Winnipeg: Morrissey (?)

Seems like most teams have had one within the last 20 years except Carolina, Florida, Toronto, and NYI

so we do suck at it

 

[IPS]

The team's largely been one of the worst at drafting and developing D for about as long as I can remember. Never seems to improve either.

I have no doubt in my mind that there's an alternate reality somewhere where Rielly got developed properly and actually plays elite defense alongside his other attributes.

 

[thewave]

Off the top of my head, last time teams had an elite 1D:

Anaheim: Neidermeyer
Boston: McAvoy
Buffalo: Dahlin
Calgary: Giordano
Carolina: ?
Chicago: Keith
Colorado: Makar
Colombus: Werenski
Dallas: Heiskanen
Detroit: Lidstrom
Edmonton: Pronger for literally one year, before then Coffee?
Florida: None? Depends how you rate Boumeester/Forsling
LA: Doughty
Minnesota: Suter
Montreal: Weber
Nashville: Josi
Devils: Niedermeyer (2002)
NYI: Potvin? Dobson is good but not a "true 1D"
NYR: Fox
Ottawa: Karlsson
Philadelphia: Pronger
Pittsburgh: Letang
SJ: Burns
Seattle: N/a
St. Louis: Pietrangelo
Tampa: Hedman
Utah: OEL
Vancouver: Hughes
Vegas: Pietrangelo
Washington: Langway
Winnipeg: Morrissey (?)

Seems like most teams have had one within the last 20 years except Carolina, Florida, Toronto, NYI and Washington

so we do suck at it

Find us a Toronto developed C. We have none outside the no brained 1st overall Matthews. Outside that traded for

 

[leafsfan5]

Find us a Toronto developed C. We have none outside the no brained 1st overall Matthews. Outside that traded for

well Leafs ended up with 2 recently In that department, Matthews and Tavares

Wasn't through development but there's other pathways. Vegas doesn't really care to draft and ended up with their 1C (Eichel) and 1D (Pietrangelo, Theodore) via other means

For a true 1D, Toronto has sucked at all possible methods

 

[Jojalu]

I just did a quick look back to 2006.

There has not been a lot to choose from while drafting in the first round.

Karlsson over Schenn.

Trouba or Skeji over Reilly

Theadore over Gauthier.

Nevermind the #1. They havn't really drafted much overall on the backend who actually play and contribute

 

[kevsh]

I guess Salming would be the closest but not really

Agree entirely with the premise of this thread - the Leafs do suck at obtaining top d-men by any and all means - but Salming was a legit #1.

Easily one of the top defencemen in the league in his lenghty prime (finished #2 in Norris voting twice, top 5 seven times). Of course that was back when the Norris was given to guys that were great in their own end, not just how many points they put up.

 

[Fogelhund]

The last time the Leafs had a Number 1 D was Rielly. 5th and 11th in Norris voting , All Star 3 times.

He's not that player right now, but that shouldn't cloud your vision that if you are voted 5th best D in the league, you are clearly viewed as a Top 30/32 D, and Number 1.

Now, I think what's actually being alluded to here, is an Elite #1 D, which frankly is pretty rare, and usually only a handful in the league at any one time. Rielly has never been close to that.

McCabe/Kaberle had a nice run as a first pairing that was of high quality, but neither was an Elite #1D.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Agree entirely with the premise of this thread - the Leafs do suck at obtaining top d-men by any and all means - but Salming was a legit #1.

Easily one of the top defencemen in the league in his lenghty prime (finished #2 in Norris voting twice, top 5 seven times). Of course that was back when the Norris was given to guys that were great in their own end, not just how many points they put up.

I'm old enough that I saw him play at his peak but I was too young to appreciate it so I take the word of others that know more.

 

[barilko05]

The last time the Leafs had a Number 1 D was Rielly. 5th and 11th in Norris voting , All Star 3 times.

He's not that player right now, but that shouldn't cloud your vision that if you are voted 5th best D in the league, you are clearly viewed as a Top 30/32 D, and Number 1.

Now, I think what's actually being alluded to here, is an Elite #1 D, which frankly is pretty rare, and usually only a handful in the league at any one time. Rielly has never been close to that.

McCabe/Kaberle had a nice run as a first pairing that was of high quality, but neither was an Elite #1D.

Agree. Elite LEAGUE WIDE as opposed to best D on the team are two entirely different things. I don't put Letang or Weber or even Josi in that convo, certainly not Rielly. All very good, but not Elite. Karlsson, while stellar offensively, has only been average defensively, kind of like Paul Coffey back in the day. But he had that ability to lift his team in key moments. That's what raises a D to another level, like a Hedman or a Doughty. And that's what wins championships...or, in Karlsson's case, almost.

 

[Dreakmur]

I just did a quick look back to 2006.

There has not been a lot to choose from while drafting in the first round.

Karlsson over Schenn.

Trouba or Skeji over Reilly

Hampus Lindholm is better than both Trouba and Skeij. I do prefer him over Rielly - though I absolutely did not at the time of the draft.

Theadore over Gauthier.

He'd help, but he's not a #1.

Nevermind the #1. They havn't really drafted much overall on the backend who actually play and contribute

Just with the picks they had, and not acquiring or keeping picks that were traded away, we had some chances to draft good D.

Travis Sanheim over Nylander.

Noah Hanifin or Zach Werenski over Marner.

Kaiden Guhle or Braden Schneider over Amirov.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I don't think Kaberle was much worse than a couple of those listed for other teams, but yes, Salming and then back to Horton.

What, no love for Phaneuf?

I wonder if some of it may also be because of how bad the overall teams were, that limited growth.

 

[Jojalu]

Hampus Lindholm is better than both Trouba and Skeij. I do prefer him over Rielly - though I absolutely did not at the time of the draft.



He'd help, but he's not a #1.



Just with the picks they had, and not acquiring or keeping picks that were traded away, we had some chances to draft good D.

Travis Sanheim over Nylander.

Noah Hanifin or Zach Werenski over Marner.

Kaiden Guhle or Braden Schneider over Amirov.

I forgot about Werenski. I am not sure how many would take Hanifin over Marner today but he was available.

They certainly havn't made a habit of drafting solid D over the past 20+ years

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Not sure why the Leafs cannot draft and develop a stud, certified #1 dman. It's been tougher the last few years since we've either picked late or traded our 1st altogether. There just hasn't been any luck with finding hidden gems in the 2/3rd rounds.

There are lots of teams with iffy drafting and developing track records, what cannot be debated is that most teams that go on a run and win a cup have that #1, all purpose stud on the back-end.

 

[Jojalu]

Not sure why the Leafs cannot draft and develop a stud, certified #1 dman. It's been tougher the last few years since we've either picked late or traded our 1st altogether. There just hasn't been any luck with finding hidden gems in the 2/3rd rounds.

There are lots of teams with iffy drafting and developing track records, what cannot be debated is that most teams that go on a run and win a cup have that #1, all purpose stud on the back-end.

The only team that I can think of is Pit. Or maybe I am undervaluing Letang

 

[Hallonbroder]

Agree. Elite LEAGUE WIDE as opposed to best D on the team are two entirely different things. I don't put Letang or Weber or even Josi in that convo, certainly not Rielly. All very good, but not Elite. Karlsson, while stellar offensively, has only been average defensively, kind of like Paul Coffey back in the day. But he had that ability to lift his team in key moments. That's what raises a D to another level, like a Hedman or a Doughty. And that's what wins championships...or, in Karlsson's case, almost.

False. EK was amazing before Cooke cut his achilles by ”accident”. He was also great afterwards, although he couldn’t skate back the same way.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

The only team that I can think of is Pit. Or maybe I am undervaluing Letang

Yeah that one year where Letang was out, it was Hainsey and a bunch of nobodies back there

 

[Leafsfan74]

I'm 55. I honestly can't name a single true No. 1 D on this team since I started watching them in the 70s. I guess Salming would be the closest but not really. Why? Why have we never had a Neidermeyer or Pronger or Lidstrom or Hedman? Is it just hitting the lottery to get those guys or is the franchise so inept they simply can't produce one? I've been wondering about this for quite awhile.

Every Cup dynasty has had a #1 and many others who just went deep repeatedly. Leafs are basically poorly managed and owned for 50 years. They don't like dominant defenseman because Leaf fans like to buy jerseys of flashy players, almost as if compensating for their boring lives I don't know lol.

I see many Marner and Nylander jerseys around town but few Tanev or McCabes. Weird.

Lindstrom, Pronger, Chelios. All have Cups. Pronger won a Cup on a shocking season with Anaheim after a lengthy successful career Internatiinally and a Finals with the Oilers. Both Chelios and Lindstrom have multiple Cups and were shutdown and in control. THAT is how you win come playoffs when the game becomes a grind.

Leafs have improved and if they had 3 McCabes and 3 Tanevs, they could have the forward group of any team in the league and be a perennial Cup threat IMO even though neither would be described as a #1.

To me a #1 is about a player who can eat big minutes against any opposition line in any situation and the coach and fans will not have sweaty palms for their entire shift. If they provide offense, great. It's the positioning, competitive battle and sacrifice in them. Offense is a bonus and can be a simple wrister to the net or quick transition. As long as they can get the puck out for the counter attack, it's a victory for their team.

I think back to the NJ teams of the 1990s who were stacked in the back end and it made them nearly unbeatable with Brodeur in net. They won multiple Cups with no flashy forwards to speak of but there were disgusting on the back end, a trove of riches, Stevens, Niedermayer, Rafalski, Danekyo. The team kept the winners in a NJ jersey because, well, they win. When player lose, they get rid of the players because, well, they lost.

Imagine that defense and team structure with the goaltending the Leafs have been getting? Leafs would have a G.A.A that is a full 1 goal less per game than they have now.