Proposal: Trouba Mega Thread Part VI

[Heldig]

6 threads and it us the same arguments over and over and over again.

Obviously we don't know what players actual GM's have proposed. IMO there have been several good ones from Ranger fans for example.

Recalling the Selanne trade, the Jets traded a young star forward for 2 younger promising players. Disaster for the Jets. I want Chevy to stuck to his guns. The Jets need a cost controlled with term, young, top player in return.

With the play of Morrissey I can see the ask expanding to include a centre or the LHD Chevy is adamant about right now.

 

[lomiller1]

Beleksey and Hayes. Oh, and his most common D man was Dennis Seidenberg. No one is arguing that Spooner is good enough to drive possession entirely. But, he was piled on with the worst skaters the team had last year.

Did ok playing with Perreault

 

[haveandare]

because he's a problem? So the Jets should trade him for 80 cents on the dollar because he's a problem? Chevy doesn't agree, and the Jets are thankful for that.

He's 22. Getting in shape shouldn't be a problem.



Fair enough. It doesn't happen often, and I don't expect it to happen in this case either. I do expect, however, that Chevy will get fair value.

Yes, any young valuable player who has sat unsigned for long enough that you're now realistically considering sitting them for the entire year is very obviously a problem.

They should accept a dollar on a dollar in that they should realize Trouba's value isn't the same as it would be if he were signed and playing and take what is equal to his current value under these circumstances.

I don't know what Chevy has done to earn the trust and praise that's heaped upon him so often but I suspect its mostly that he's the "good guy" in this situation in Jet's fans eyes, which is understandable.

 

[cneely]

Whatever advanced stats that exist out there can all tell me Perrault is better than Marchand. I still won't accept that Perrault is better than Marchand. Because perrault is not better than Marchand

That doesn't mean you dismiss all advanced stats. They just need to be taken in context.

 

[Snowman]

Chevy will be helping the Jets by trading Trouba not another GM. Trouba is worth what he is worth based on the offers received. Chevy might think he is worth more, Jets fans might think he is worth more, but he is only worth the best offer received.

Once again, you are completely wrong. If Chevy trades Trouba for less than he is worth, he is only helping the other GM and hurting the Jets, so that won't happen. Also, Trouba is worth what the Jets say, not what other teams want to offer. If he was only worth what other teams want to offer, he would be traded already. You can dream that one day your team will offer the Jets some low-ball offer and Chevy will go "oh well, that's the best I've been offered, so I might as well." It just won't happen in reality.

 

[MikeRahl]

What team out there has 3 top end young cost controlled LHD and 0 young top end RHD currently in the NHL? What team trades away a valuable piece of their current team for an unsigned player who might cost more than their current player and has a headache of an agent just for the hopes he'll bring as much to their team as the guy they traded. Subban was a headache for Montreal for whatever reason. They got fair return for him in shea Weber but they gave up valuable future prime years of subban for the remaining few left in shea Weber. So it's like if we say Jacob trouba will be like a jay bouewmeester (prime bouwmeester) one day. But right now he's a headache so you trade him for giordano. In all liklihood giordano helps your team more the next 2 years and is more valuable than trouba is the next 2 years. That doesn't mean it's a fair trade. Winnipeg gets fleeced in that deal. Right? Because in 3 years giordano will stink and trouba still has 7 prime years left. So when was the last time a talented unsigned malcontent was traded away and the team got a fair 1-1 even value swap? No one will trade away troubas exact LHD signed counterpart for unsigned trouba. Prospects, young d with less potential, young forwards, picks. That's likely what Winnipeg will have to choose from if they decide they will trade him.

I'll be stunned if Zach werenski or Noah hanifin get moved for trouba

The logical fallacy here is there is no trade involving an unsigned Trouba. Anyone who tells you that is going to be the case is off their rocker.

Whoever is trading for Trouba (in the event of a trade) already has their i's dotted and their t's crossed. He is a FREE AGENT. Any team who is kicking the tires trying to get him from the Jets already has had contact with Overhardt. There is no tampering as he is free to neogotiate with whoever.

The teams know exactly what they are going to get from a Trouba contract, there is going to be no surprises.

That being said, if there are 6 teams interested, and he will sign a bridge with teams A-C, and a 6 year deal with D-F, of course the latter offers will be better than the former.

 

[haveandare]

So make the trade I want, and then just flip the pieces you don't need later.

I'm not saying make the trade I want necessarily, just using that as an example since I actually know the NYR players enough to speak about them with a good amount of information. The point is that someimtes 1 for 1 doesn't happen – this kind of thinking is basic trade logic and not some weird alternative process that a professional GM should be afraid to embrace if necessary.

IMO Chevy's best move is to make the best deal before Dec 1 regardless of whether its the fantastical LHD he wants or a forward he thinks his team doesn't need even though it very, very clearly does. Having Trouba sit out a year is a worst case outcome IMO.

 

[allan5oh]

I think fans of other teams really need to pay attention to how much of a long term view management and most importantly ownership take. They took 4-5 years to trade Kane after his trade request every summer. Pavelec has buried this team for years. Trouba requested his trade 6 months ago. On and on. They've never done quick fixes and they aren't going to start now!

 

[cneely]

Yes, any young valuable player who has sat unsigned for long enough that you're now realistically considering sitting them for the entire year is very obviously a problem.

They should accept a dollar on a dollar in that they should realize Trouba's value isn't the same as it would be if he were signed and playing and take what is equal to his current value under these circumstances.

I don't know what Chevy has done to earn the trust and praise that's heaped upon him so often but I suspect its mostly that he's the "good guy" in this situation in Jet's fans eyes, which is understandable.

I don't really heap praise on Chevy, and I'm not a Jets fan, although I do live in Winnipeg, so I follow the team.

The Jets and their farm system has grown leaps and bounds from what they inherited 5 years ago despite this being a somewhat difficult market (budget concerns, difficulty attracting free agents). He's done this by being patient, and the one blockbuster deal he did make in 5 years, he knocked out of the park IMO. Chevy is nothing if not a patient man, and he will not move Trouba unless he gets what he and his advisers deem to be fair value.

 

[smack66]

I'm not a fan of what Trouba is doing but at the end of the day its his choice.

I do however think his value is less then if he wasn't sitting out. If you are the GM of another team are you not now questioning Trouba's "me first" stance vs what is best for the team. If so, how does that impact in a team environment? Also, how is he received in the team he is being traded to? At the end of the day talent is critical but GM's are no doubt questioning Trouba's commitment therefore are not going to change a dollar that they have and know for an unknown dollar. I think teams are seeing what has happened to the me first player that was traded from Winnipeg and are no doubt a little cautious in making a trade.

 

[cneely]

Once again, you are completely wrong. If Chevy trades Trouba for less than he is worth, he is only helping the other GM and hurting the Jets, so that won't happen. Also, Trouba is worth what the Jets say, not what other teams want to offer. If he was only worth what other teams want to offer, he would be traded already. You can dream that one day your team will offer the Jets some low-ball offer and Chevy will go "oh well, that's the best I've been offered, so I might as well." It just won't happen in reality.

Agree with your first statement, strongly agree with the second. Supply and demand. The market will dictate his value.

 

[haveandare]

Once again, you are completely wrong. If Chevy trades Trouba for less than he is worth, he is only helping the other GM and hurting the Jets, so that won't happen. Also, Trouba is worth what the Jets say, not what other teams want to offer. If he was only worth what other teams want to offer, he would be traded already. You can dream that one day your team will offer the Jets some low-ball offer and Chevy will go "oh well, that's the best I've been offered, so I might as well." It just won't happen in reality.

The price of anything is defined by what people are willing to pay for it. You can mark a box of tissues at $100 but it's not worth $100 unless or until someone forks it over.

 

[Montecristo]

Johansen for Jones kinda fits that bill.

That's a great comparable.the big difference though is the obvious one. Nashville needed a centerman,and columbus wanted defensive help.

Two completely different needs for 2 franchises led to a good hockey trade. LD vs RD are too similar. Also despite johansens attitude in Columbus and with torts, he was playing. Good recent trade though, I just don't see it as a future barometer for what Winnipeg should expect. Unless they want a winger or centerman. Trading a malcontent top flight D for a top flight D of equal value is a tough thing to get any fan base to buy into. Personally I wouldn't trade Brandon Carlo for trouba. Even if trouba has the higher ceiling he demands more dollars, expansion protection and is no slam dunk to be better than carlo will be.

 

[S E P H]

What is the latest on him?

Since he is a RFA, doesn't he have to be signed or trade by December 1st or will be ineligible to play for the rest of the year?

 

[tbcwpg]

Skjei+Hayes/Miller. Skjei is LH defensemen, first round pick in his first NHL season, expansion except. MIller and Hayes are both young, bridge deals, RFA´s in two seasons, Hayes scored 45 points or something in his rookie year, Miller scored 22 goals last season. Both can play 2nd line center. Miller 9 points in 9 games so far, Hayes 6 points in 9 games. Both play center and wing and can play on pk and pp.

I like that return, I think I'm in the minority on that when it comes to Jets fans. I don't like that Miller needs to be protected but I prefer him over Hayes.

 

[cneely]

That's a great comparable.the big difference though is the obvious one. Nashville needed a centerman,and columbus wanted defensive help.

Two completely different needs for 2 franchises led to a good hockey trade. LD vs RD are too similar. Also despite johansens attitude in Columbus and with torts, he was playing. Good recent trade though, I just don't see it as a future barometer for what Winnipeg should expect. Unless they want a winger or centerman. Trading a malcontent top flight D for a top flight D of equal value is a tough thing to get any fan base to buy into. Personally I wouldn't trade Brandon Carlo for trouba. Even if trouba has the higher ceiling he demands more dollars, expansion protection and is no slam dunk to be better than carlo will be.

I like you're logic, only have a significant issue with your last statement. As a Bruins fan living in Winnipeg, I've seen a ton of Trouba, and while Carlo has started well (very well) if he even turns into Trouba light, the Bruins should be overjoyed. Trouba really gets underrated as an all around hockey player.

 

[haveandare]

I don't really heap praise on Chevy, and I'm not a Jets fan, although I do live in Winnipeg, so I follow the team.

The Jets and their farm system has grown leaps and bounds from what they inherited 5 years ago despite this being a somewhat difficult market (budget concerns, difficulty attracting free agents). He's done this by being patient, and the one blockbuster deal he did make in 5 years, he knocked out of the park IMO. Chevy is nothing if not a patient man, and he will not move Trouba unless he gets what he and his advisers deem to be fair value.

Growing a farm system isn't necessarily an achievement. If your team isn't good, you get good picks and if you don't spend them you build up your farm system pretty much by default.

His one move was a win, yes. But his team is still struggling pretty badly despite adding some good young talent.

There's such a thing as being too patient for your own good as a GM. He's dancing on that line IMO. Not moving Trouba because his fantasy ideal wasn't offered would be 100% confirmation that he's well over that line.

 

[northeastern]

McQuaid isn't a need in Winnipeg he's a bottom pairing guy, And it sounds like Chevy might want Carlo instead i doubt that Zboril is a need. Cheveldayoff has pretty much said that he wants a top 4 LHD that can fit right into the lineup if need be.

I don't see Carlo being available. Moving him plus would only give the bruins a small bump in overall D and still leaves the back end far to thin. I think the bruins are willing to overpay to an extent but not by moving the few glimmers of hope seen on D.

 

[nyr__1994]

I think fans of other teams really need to pay attention to how much of a long term view management and most importantly ownership take. They took 4-5 years to trade Kane after his trade request every summer. Pavelec has buried this team for years. Trouba requested his trade 6 months ago. On and on. They've never done quick fixes and they aren't going to start now!

Counter Point: Maybe if your GM moving like molasses has kept your franchise where it is at. Telling your fans that the future is bright, but this is a development year, AGAIN. And also, if your franchise was maybe a little more accommodating to its players and their requests, players wouldn't be so hesitant to commit to the team long term.

 

[cneely]

Growing a farm system isn't necessarily an achievement. If your team isn't good, you get good picks and if you don't spend them you build up your farm system pretty much by default.

His one move was a win, yes. But his team is still struggling pretty badly despite adding some good young talent.

There's such a thing as being too patient for your own good as a GM. He's dancing on that line IMO. Not moving Trouba because his fantasy ideal wasn't offered would be 100% confirmation that he's well over that line.

Building a farm system for a team that will likely have difficulty attracting FA talent is a huge step. The team is still struggling, yes, but they have a pretty bright future if guys like Ehlers, Connor, Laine, Hellebuyck and Morrissey turn out.

I don't think that moving assets for less than value is good management. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.

 

[Reaper45]

6 threads and it us the same arguments over and over and over again.

Obviously we don't know what players actual GM's have proposed. IMO there have been several good ones from Ranger fans for example.

Recalling the Selanne trade, the Jets traded a young star forward for 2 younger promising players. Disaster for the Jets. I want Chevy to stuck to his guns. The Jets need a cost controlled with term, young, top player in return.

With the play of Morrissey I can see the ask expanding to include a centre or the LHD Chevy is adamant about right now.

I understand what you're saying buy then I think about when the Kings traded Visnovsky for Stoll and Greene. Young star for two players with promise. Changed the Kings immediately and set them.on the path to the cup. Obviously other deals had to happen but sometimes trading an A for two B's works out.

 

[cneely]

I don't see Carlo being available. Moving him plus would only give the bruins a small bump in overall D and still leaves the back end far to thin. I think the bruins are willing to overpay to an extent but not by moving the few glimmers of hope seen on D.

Carlo to Trouba is more, much more, than a small bump on defence.

 

[Dijock94]

Once again, you are completely wrong. If Chevy trades Trouba for less than he is worth, he is only helping the other GM and hurting the Jets, so that won't happen. Also, Trouba is worth what the Jets say, not what other teams want to offer. If he was only worth what other teams want to offer, he would be traded already. You can dream that one day your team will offer the Jets some low-ball offer and Chevy will go "oh well, that's the best I've been offered, so I might as well." It just won't happen in reality.

If I'm selling my house for 500k but the best offer I get is 350k then my house isn't really worth 500k. Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them. Or you don't sell your asset.

 

[jay from jersey]

honestly

IMO Miller & Skjei is at least a reasonable offer, not sure if Chevy would take it or not but at least it's reasonable IMO.

this is a really good offer for trouba but i'm not sure gorton offers it. I would, and i understand you have to give to get. it fixes NYR's RD problem for the next 6 or so years. Jets fans may not know a lot about either player so i hope this helps. Miller is 23yrs old, he is signed for under 3million the next 2 years,has improved every year, plays all 3 FWD positions well, he is physical, and plays a strong 2-way game. IMO he tops out at a first or 2nd line winger that can score 30 goals and add 55-60 pts. So far this year he has 9pts in 9 games. Lundqvist has stated many times that miller possesses the best shot on the team. Coming from a top 3 goalie in the league I do not take that lightly and I can see why many fans are hesitant to deal him. Skjei is a major piece. I see many comparibles to him and McDonaugh coming up. Both were first Rd choices, both elite skaters, both questions about what their offensive production would be. skjei has a first RD background, (same draft as trouba, month younger) was excellent when being called up last years playoffs against the penguines. Has 3 pts this year so far. He will be a top4 d-man in this league for a very very long time. he is also exempt from expansion which is huge. IMO he would have been a starter last year but LD on the rangers was McD,Staal,and Yandle. where was the kid going to play? we were going for the cup, why start the rookie??? I can see why many NYR fans and Gorton would not want to give up that package at this time but it is fair for a talent like trouba. The move also allows the jets to protect 7-3-1 instead of 4-4-1 which allows them to protect and keep miller and retain 2 of Armia, Copp, Dano, Petan? far better asset management then losing one of those guys and having to protect trouba, an asset that will never play for you again. I think by the end of the year, if this trade is made skjei passes enstrom for playing time. that's not a sleight on enstrom, but NYR fans know what skjei is capable of. jets LD would be set for next 6-7 years in Morrisey,Skjei, entrom ( stanley in the wings) and miller would be a fixture on their top 2 lines or turned into a keith premieu(sp) style shut down offensive center. Not a bad haul at all. They key for NYR is if they think Graves is ready and could make skjei available for a trade, If not, they might not pull the trigger. Similar to the duclair buchnevich situation with phoneix 2 years ago. Both excellent players but duclair was traded to upgrade another position.. This could have the makings of a great trade for both teams but there are a lot of question marks for both.. Can the jets get a better package? Does NYR go after Vatanen, Shattenkirk, Hamilton Instead??? STAY TUNED gonna get interesting this month

 

[Gotaf7]

Chevy will not trade him till he signs a fair market value contract imo.