HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #85 - Offseason Editon

[Belial]

Jake Allen's stats in 22-23:
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]W[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]OTL[/TD]
[TD]GAA[/TD]
[TD]SV%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]42[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3.55[/TD]
[TD]0.891[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I'm not sure what they saw in Allen last year to give him that unnecessary extension + raise. Or what they think they can do with Allen in 24-25 season either. He'll be 35 and was never good.

The buyout simulator says in case of a buyout in Summer 2024 his cap hit will be 2.3m in 24-25 and then 0.7m 25-26. Savings of 1.5m and -0.7m. I don't love it, personally, but we just saw Hughes sell 2.3m in future cap space for a 2nd round pick and some spare parts -- the inverse of that means 1.5m in cap space is worth a certain amount X (say, 3rd round pick) and Jake Allen is clearly worth less than that amount on the trade market.

Maybe they can jettison him this offseason and retain half his cap hit -- can we get a 3rd or 4th round pick for him at a 1.8m cap hit? Who needs a goalie? We'd be out of retention spots following this hypothetical trade but I was assured by many geniuses that retention spots are worthless and we shouldn't concern ourselves with them.

But what's the rush to get rid of Allen? We don't really have someone pushing for a spot.

 

[HuGort]

But what's the rush to get rid of Allen? We don't really have someone pushing for a spot.

I doubt Hughes moving Allen. Just gave him a big raise with an extension. Why would he turn around and trade him? Hughes could have dealt Allen at deadline and kept the 4m in caproom. A vet on expiring contract, with ow caproom last season, plus Habs could retain half. He would have got a 2nd last February

 

[Vachon23]

No need to trade Allen. He has no value and we need good veteran in the lockeroom and he’s one. Monty said many times that Allen help him a lot

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

I'm guessing DeSmith will simply be released from his contract and they'll take the chance of sending Primeau through waivers. I'm actually not that sure he'll get picked, teams just aren't looking for goalies right now.

 

[Adam Michaels]

I'm guessing DeSmith will simply be released from his contract and they'll take the chance of sending Primeau through waivers. I'm actually not that sure he'll get picked, teams just aren't looking for goalies right now.

DeSmith will need to agree to terminate his contract.

I agree that they'll likely take the chance to send Primeau through waivers (especially if he doesn't impress at camp). What MIGHT work in Habs' favor is that Primeau does have two more years left on his deal. And next year, his actual salary is $1.1M. That might turn a bunch of teams off.

I won't say teams aren't looking for goalies. Because injuries occur during camp and a team might need a goalie and will look at waivers to pick one up. Similar to when Habs claimed Monty from Florida. The Habs knew Price wasn't healthy so they were short a goalie, and that's when they looked to waivers to claim one.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

DeSmith will need to agree to terminate his contract.

He's not making a ton of money (1.5 I think ? Something like that) , so he might be thinking that he can make at least as much in Europe if he wants to or get just as much as a free agent from an NHL team dealing with an injury in december. He's a perfectly average NHL goalie , some team is bound to take a chance on him sooner or later.

 

[417]

DeSmith will need to agree to terminate his contract.

I agree that they'll likely take the chance to send Primeau through waivers (especially if he doesn't impress at camp). What MIGHT work in Habs' favor is that Primeau does have two more years left on his deal. And next year, his actual salary is $1.1M. That might turn a bunch of teams off.

I won't say teams aren't looking for goalies. Because injuries occur during camp and a team might need a goalie and will look at waivers to pick one up. Similar to when Habs claimed Monty from Florida. The Habs knew Price wasn't healthy so they were short a goalie, and that's when they looked to waivers to claim one.

I find that when you're worried about potentially losing a player to waivers during training camp...timing is everything.

If you want to sneak someone through waivers, do it early when other teams are sending guys down in waves while they're building their teams.

But if you wait closer to the season, that's when other teams have identified needs that need to be filled and waivers is always one option for them.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I find that when you're worried about potentially losing a player to waivers during training camp...timing is everything.

If you want to sneak someone through waivers, do it early when other teams are sending guys down in waves while they're building their teams.

But if you wait closer to the season, that's when other teams have identified needs that need to be filled and waivers is always one option for them.

However, making a slightly valuable guy available earlier allows teams with resourceful GMs more time to figure out how to construct their roster to keep the guy. At the last minute, they may not bother.

 

[Scriptor]

He's not making a ton of money (1.5 I think ? Something like that) , so he might be thinking that he can make at least as much in Europe if he wants to or get just as much as a free agent from an NHL team dealing with an injury in december. He's a perfectly average NHL goalie , some team is bound to take a chance on him sooner or later.

1.8M, I believe

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

problem with Allen is nobody will want him but if someone did i would trade him without hesitating hes contract was given more then a year ago hes veteran presence dont really matter anymore Monty is not a rookie and we have other vets in the room

Will probably just end up waiving DeSmith

 

[CHfan1]

Jake Allen's stats in 22-23:
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]W[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]OTL[/TD]
[TD]GAA[/TD]
[TD]SV%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]42[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3.55[/TD]
[TD]0.891[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I'm not sure what they saw in Allen last year to give him that unnecessary extension + raise. Or what they think they can do with Allen in 24-25 season either. He'll be 35 and was never good.

The buyout simulator says in case of a buyout in Summer 2024 his cap hit will be 2.3m in 24-25 and then 0.7m 25-26. Savings of 1.5m and -0.7m. I don't love it, personally, but we just saw Hughes sell 2.3m in future cap space for a 2nd round pick and some spare parts -- the inverse of that means 1.5m in cap space is worth a certain amount X (say, 3rd round pick) and Jake Allen is clearly worth less than that amount on the trade market.

Maybe they can jettison him this offseason and retain half his cap hit -- can we get a 3rd or 4th round pick for him at a 1.8m cap hit? Who needs a goalie? We'd be out of retention spots following this hypothetical trade but I was assured by many geniuses that retention spots are worthless and we shouldn't concern ourselves with them.

As a note they gave Allen that contract prior to last season starting. That was prior to Montembeault stepping up and they probably didn’t believe they had any good options. In the 2021-22 season Allen had a .905 sv% and Montembeault had a .891 sv%. In Primeau’s 12 games that year he had a .868 sv%. Obviously looking at that contract now it looks bad and probably isn’t tradeable but I think that gives a little more context around the Allen contract.

 

[Wats]

No need to trade Allen. He has no value and we need good veteran in the lockeroom and he’s one. Monty said many times that Allen help him a lot

Allen's the biggest anomaly in Hughes contacts. Hard to not think they just wanted to set him up so he can be that leader while having his remaining career essentially ruined with terrible defense. If I were Allen, it be hard to re-sign unless the $$ would cover messing up any future employment.

 

[417]

However, making a slightly valuable guy available earlier allows teams with resourceful GMs more time to figure out how to construct their roster to keep the guy. At the last minute, they may not bother.

yeah it's definitely a bit of a game, but generally speaking, the earlier in camp, the more bodies you have and more players to look at on your team, and there are no or less injuries.

The later you get into training camp, the more those variables start to change.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Jake Allen's stats in 22-23:
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]W[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]OTL[/TD]
[TD]GAA[/TD]
[TD]SV%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]42[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3.55[/TD]
[TD]0.891[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I'm not sure what they saw in Allen last year to give him that unnecessary extension + raise. Or what they think they can do with Allen in 24-25 season either. He'll be 35 and was never good.

The buyout simulator says in case of a buyout in Summer 2024 his cap hit will be 2.3m in 24-25 and then 0.7m 25-26. Savings of 1.5m and -0.7m. I don't love it, personally, but we just saw Hughes sell 2.3m in future cap space for a 2nd round pick and some spare parts -- the inverse of that means 1.5m in cap space is worth a certain amount X (say, 3rd round pick) and Jake Allen is clearly worth less than that amount on the trade market.

Maybe they can jettison him this offseason and retain half his cap hit -- can we get a 3rd or 4th round pick for him at a 1.8m cap hit? Who needs a goalie? We'd be out of retention spots following this hypothetical trade but I was assured by many geniuses that retention spots are worthless and we shouldn't concern ourselves with them.

1. Jake Allen signed his extension on October 1, 2022, so I have no idea why you think what Allen did last season is relevant to why his contract was offered.

2. Last season Allen had a GSAA/60 of -0.047 (which is along the lines of Hill, Thompson, Grubauer, Talbot, Markstrom, Jarry and Anderson). He's a mediocre veteran goalie that generally doesn't cost his team games and strangely has a history of elevating his game in meaningful moments (in the small sample where he's in that position) and those can be costly in free agency.

3. Montembault was truly awful in 21-22, and management wanted a goalie that wouldn't make the forwards/D-men be nervous to take chances in the neutral zone and offensive zone.

Its also fine if Montreal doesn't trade or buyout Allen, he's still a capable goalie and Montreal doesn't need the cap space for the next two seasons anyways.

 

[ReHabs]

As a note they gave Allen that contract prior to last season starting. That was prior to Montembeault stepping up and they probably didn’t believe they had any good options. In the 2021-22 season Allen had a .905 sv% and Montembeault had a .891 sv%. In Primeau’s 12 games that year he had a .868 sv%. Obviously looking at that contract now it looks bad and probably isn’t tradeable but I think that gives a little more context around the Allen contract.

Yes Hughes inexplicably and unjustifiably jumped the gun with that extension + raise to Jake Allen.

1. Jake Allen signed his extension on October 1, 2022, so I have no idea why you think what Allen did last season is relevant to why his contract was offered.

2. Last season Allen had a GSAA/60 of -0.047 (which is along the lines of Hill, Thompson, Grubauer, Talbot, Markstrom, Jarry and Anderson). He's a mediocre veteran goalie that generally doesn't cost his team games and strangely has a history of elevating his game in meaningful moments (in the small sample where he's in that position) and those can be costly in free agency.

3. Montembault was truly awful in 21-22, and management wanted a goalie that wouldn't make the forwards/D-men be nervous to take chances in the neutral zone and offensive zone.

Its also fine if Montreal doesn't trade or buyout Allen, he's still a capable goalie and Montreal doesn't need the cap space for the next two seasons anyways.

1. See above. Hughes jumped the gun and the extension wasn't justified.

2. He didn't earn a raise and a tanking/rebuilding team doesn't need to particularly value a G like Jake Allen. In fact he did steal many points last season, single handedly costing the Habs a higher draft rank.

3. There are plenty of Jake Allen-tier goalies available every year. A rebuilding team didn't need to give Jake Allen a raise.

 

[Miller Time]

I find that when you're worried about potentially losing a player to waivers during training camp...timing is everything.

If you want to sneak someone through waivers, do it early when other teams are sending guys down in waves while they're building their teams.

But if you wait closer to the season, that's when other teams have identified needs that need to be filled and waivers is always one option for them.

However, making a slightly valuable guy available earlier allows teams with resourceful GMs more time to figure out how to construct their roster to keep the guy. At the last minute, they may not bother.

And these two astute and accurate perspectives capture very well why most GM decisions aren't good or bad outside of a detailed understanding of both their unique org. context & leadership direction...

Imo, Best case for us would be a team dealing with an early injury and viewing desmith as a good early insurance buffer... A late pick or even future considerations would be fine if no cap retention. If not, I imagine he gets waived & goes to Laval until a team comes calling.

Primeau is a tougher case... Would've been nice to see him get a shot at FT back-up this year if he showed enough in camp... But with Allen/Monty in place, he'll need to separate himself from both considerably, which I don't see as likely. Will be interesting to see how Hughes navigates that. The early waiver approach seems like the best shot at sneaking him through

1. Jake Allen signed his extension on October 1, 2022, so I have no idea why you think what Allen did last season is relevant to why his contract was offered.

2. Last season Allen had a GSAA/60 of -0.047 (which is along the lines of Hill, Thompson, Grubauer, Talbot, Markstrom, Jarry and Anderson). He's a mediocre veteran goalie that generally doesn't cost his team games and strangely has a history of elevating his game in meaningful moments (in the small sample where he's in that position) and those can be costly in free agency.

3. Montembault was truly awful in 21-22, and management wanted a goalie that wouldn't make the forwards/D-men be nervous to take chances in the neutral zone and offensive zone.

Its also fine if Montreal doesn't trade or buyout Allen, he's still a capable goalie and Montreal doesn't need the cap space for the next two seasons anyways.

This, and, Allen was extended because of the veteran leadership he brought to the team & the goalie room.

Don't love the extension, but I get it and as you point out, it's not a cap issue for us, especially with Monty at 1M. We are spending minimal % of our cap on G, that the spend is on attributes with likely more off-ice impact than on-ice is not a bad decision in our situation

 

[Captain Mountain]

Yes Hughes inexplicably and unjustifiably jumped the gun with that extension + raise to Jake Allen.


1. See above. Hughes jumped the gun and the extension wasn't justified.

2. He didn't earn a raise and a tanking/rebuilding team doesn't need to particularly value a G like Jake Allen. In fact he did steal many points last season, single handedly costing the Habs a higher draft rank.

3. There are plenty of Jake Allen-tier goalies available every year. A rebuilding team didn't need to give Jake Allen a raise.

1. When he signed the contract it was.

2. Lol, Allen did not steal nearly as many points last season as Montembault did, that's a ridiculous argument. If that was the real issue, then trade Montembault instead.

3. Ignoring the even crazier contracts Jake Allen-tier goalies get every year, who cares? It doesn't really matter that much in the grand scheme of things.

 

[domiwroze]

Goalies are fine. Let Monty play his load as a #1 and see if he can take over. If not and the team is ready to compete to a decent level, you can make the move. If not, there's no point to acquire a goalie like Hart and destroy his mental like Flyers did.

Allen as a number 2 is also fine, i'm not okay with his contract but it's not a pressing matter.

 

[ReHabs]

1. When he signed the contract it was.

Jake Allen's stats in the 2021-2022 season, prior to Hughes giving him a raise and two year contract:

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]W[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]OTL[/TD]
[TD]GAA[/TD]
[TD]SV%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]35[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]3.30[/TD]
[TD]0.905[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

No, he didn't deserve a raise. I know you love the current Habs GM and will fight to the death to defend his every move but not everybody has to agree with you religious types.

2. Lol, Allen did not steal nearly as many points last season as Montembault did, that's a ridiculous argument. If that was the real issue, then trade Montembault instead.

It's not an argument, it was a statement. Allen was unnecessary and bad -- he had no business being retained. The team was tanking, he didn't need to stick around. He won a few games he shouldn't have won which only makes matters worse -- at least Monty is at the onset of his career and can grow with the core.

Allen was a pending UFA who could've been released without a second thought. He would've landed with another team on a PTO probably -- instead he's picking up nearly 4m and his contract cannot be buried.

3. Ignoring the even crazier contracts Jake Allen-tier goalies get every year, who cares? It doesn't really matter that much in the grand scheme of things.

Hughes shouldn't be giving crazy contracts that are comparable to other crazy contracts. We want better than "there are even crazier contracts". We're in a big hole and our immediate competitors are well ahead of us -- we need good and great decisions at all times just to get the team into the playoffs range.

Hughes intoned he expects a more competitive team this season -- well we all know what having a sieve in nets does to the morale of a team. If Allen brings another 3.55 GAA and 0.891 sv% sesaon like he did last year it'll crush our young defenders.

Is it an unforgivable mistake by Hughes? No, not at all. Should we stick our heads in the sand and continue insisting that Hughes is infallible and can do no wrong? No, no we shouldn't. This was 100% a wrong decision.

 

[BaseballCoach]

yeah it's definitely a bit of a game, but generally speaking, the earlier in camp, the more bodies you have and more players to look at on your team, and there are no or less injuries.

The later you get into training camp, the more those variables start to change.

If true, then other things being equal, it is best to make moves later with more informtion rather than earlier with more that can change.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Jake Allen's stats in the 2021-2022 season, prior to Hughes giving him a raise and two year contract:

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]W[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]OTL[/TD]
[TD]GAA[/TD]
[TD]SV%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]35[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]3.30[/TD]
[TD]0.905[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

No, he didn't deserve a raise. I know you love the current Habs GM and will fight to the death to defend his every move but not everybody has to agree with you religious types.

It's not an argument, it was a statement. Allen was unnecessary and bad -- he had no business being retained. The team was tanking, he didn't need to stick around. He won a few games he shouldn't have won which only makes matters worse -- at least Monty is at the onset of his career and can grow with the core.

Allen was a pending UFA who could've been released without a second thought. He would've landed with another team on a PTO probably -- instead he's picking up nearly 4m and his contract cannot be buried.

Hughes shouldn't be giving crazy contracts that are comparable to other crazy contracts. We want better than "there are even crazier contracts". We're in a big hole and our immediate competitors are well ahead of us -- we need good and great decisions at all times just to get the team into the playoffs range.

Hughes intoned he expects a more competitive team this season -- well we all know what having a sieve in nets does to the morale of a team. If Allen brings another 3.55 GAA and 0.891 sv% sesaon like he did last year it'll crush our young defenders.

Is it an unforgivable mistake by Hughes? No, not at all. Should we stick our heads in the sand and continue insisting that Hughes is infallible and can do no wrong? No, no we shouldn't. This was 100% a wrong decision.

Our GM should put his big boy pants on and waive Allen if at training camp he is not one of the top 2 out of our 4 goalies who have NHL games played.

Whether he passes waivers or not, we will be on the road to resolving his situation. It will be unlikely to last more than this year.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Is Allen an overpaid useless bum or did he steal too many points and hurt our tank?

Overall it's whatever for me. They signed him because Montembeault was dogshit in 21-22 and Primeau had proven nothing so they wanted a decent veteran 1B so defencemen weren't developing in an environment where every mistake ends up in the back of the net. I was fine with the contract under that assumption as I'm not really a fan of developing players in front of guys like 21-22 Montembeault. Didn't work out but we got lucky/unlucky last year where Montembeault provided that serviceable play to help skaters feel comfortable taking risks and Allen ended up having a major down year.

It's not great value against the cap but I don't think there's any immediate need to retain on it or pay to make Allen's contract go away. We don't need the space this year and while DeSmith is the better "asset" right now it's not like you need to move heaven and earth to get Casey DeSmith in your lineup. If we're forced to trade DeSmith for a 5th and then Allen sucks again this year we can just bury him for 24-25 as this team is not really going to be cap limited with how many of the "expensive" (top 9F/top4D) are already locked in with young players. We still need someone to play 30-35 games this year even if Montembeault is good and if that's Jake Allen then whatever.

 

[HabzSauce]

Yes Hughes inexplicably and unjustifiably jumped the gun with that extension + raise to Jake Allen.


1. See above. Hughes jumped the gun and the extension wasn't justified.

2. He didn't earn a raise and a tanking/rebuilding team doesn't need to particularly value a G like Jake Allen. In fact he did steal many points last season, single handedly costing the Habs a higher draft rank.

3. There are plenty of Jake Allen-tier goalies available every year. A rebuilding team didn't need to give Jake Allen a raise.

Bro Allen was a huge reason why we finished so low! He was so bad this year. Without Allen no way we still finish #5...

Allen was one of our best tank commanders. He wasn't the problem from a tanking perspective

 

[ReHabs]

Is Allen an overpaid useless bum or did he steal too many points and hurt our tank?

He’s both. It was infuriating to see him steal games last year around November December whilst being generally unreliable and bad at goaltending.

Overall it's whatever for me. They signed him because Montembeault was dogshit in 21-22 and Primeau had proven nothing so they wanted a decent veteran 1B so defencemen weren't developing in an environment where every mistake ends up in the back of the net. I was fine with the contract under that assumption as I'm not really a fan of developing players in front of guys like 21-22 Montembeault. Didn't work out but we got lucky/unlucky last year where Montembeault provided that serviceable play to help skaters feel comfortable taking risks and Allen ended up having a major down year.

Allen was already under contract. There was no need or pressure or impetus to sign an extension when they did. But that would get in the way explaining away a clearly bad decision made by the current Habs GM.

 

[The Real Timo]

Alright... this is pretty freakin' boring. Can we get a trade or two going?