HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #85 - Offseason Editon

[Kaladin]

im with you on this personally i like Dach's ceilling more but today Vilardi showed more hopefully Kirby can stay healthy this year and keep growing will need him to reach hes potentiel

Yeah it’s fine to believe Dach may be the better player one day but at this point anyone calling Vilardi the much inferior player doesn’t know what they are talking about. They are about even in my eyes. We’ll see in the future.

I also hope he stays healthy this year and continues to develop!

 

[Scriptor]

They will certainly be more entertaining. Last year we showed we could put some very decent hockey plays together and I for one had a more enjoyable experience when I was able to see it live. Before last season it was one of the goals I had other than finishing lower than 5th. I just wanted to see the kids start playing better hockey with the puck.

Yeah, but we'll only win when we get much better without the puck, no?

Sorry, years of brainwashing...

 

[DAChampion]

Yeah it’s fine to believe Dach may be the better player one day but at this point anyone calling Vilardi the much inferior player doesn’t know what they are talking about. They are about even in my eyes. We’ll see in the future.

Yes but trade value isn't based on what players did in the previous season.

As far as value is concerned, Dach >> Vilardi.

 

[Sorinth]

it can happen but it wont be in a year he still struggles alot defensively

im with you on this personally i like Dach's ceilling more but today Vilardi showed more hopefully Kirby can stay healthy this year and keep growing will need him to reach hes potentiel

How has he shown more, he had 41 points in 63 games last year vs Dach's 38 points in 58 games, so PPG wise Dach actually did better. And for both players it was their "breakout" season so neither is more proven either.

 

[Kaladin]

Yes but trade value isn't based on what players did in the previous season.

As far as value is concerned, Dach >> Vilardi.

I mean unless Dach get's traded again we won't ever know if what you're saying is accurate or not. I don't really understand why you keep repeating it with such confidence. All we have is performance to dictate value and based on performance they're about as even as you can get.

How has he shown more, he had 41 points in 63 games last year vs Dach's 38 points in 58 games, so PPG wise Dach actually did better. And for both players it was their "breakout" season so neither is more proven either.

0.651 vs 0.655 ppg lol. I agree they are about even though. It's the people coming in here claiming Dach >> Vilardi who are completely out to lunch.

 

[Vachon23]

it sure will be annoying playing Lucic with Boston and Reaves,Domi,Bertuzzi with the Leafs

Dont want Xhekaj to have to deal with those guys specially Reaves and Lucic not that he woudlnt be able to hold hes own but i want Arber to become a good dman also not just someone who has to drop the gloves every game

It’s gonna be his bread and butter though

Xhekaj need that intimidating part in his game to be special

 

[Sorinth]

I mean unless Dach get's traded again we won't ever know if what you're saying is accurate or not. I don't really understand why you keep repeating it with such confidence. All we have is performance to dictate value and based on performance they're about as even as you can get.


0.651 vs 0.655 ppg lol. I agree they are about even though. It's the people coming in here claiming Dach >> Vilardi who are completely out to lunch.

Well Dach did it on a worse team and in his D+4 instead of his D+6 season so it is more impressive. How many ">" you want to put there is subjective but it's pretty clear that Dach is better.

 

[sampollock]

It’s gonna be his bread and brother though

Xhekaj need that intimidating part in his game to be special

Thing is, he gets hurt then who? stops the bullies. hate this that we are not tough. every year

 

[Kaladin]

Well Dach did it on a worse team and in his D+4 instead of his D+6 season so it is more impressive. How many ">" you want to put there is subjective but it's pretty clear that Dach is better.

Worse team can also mean your spoon fed minutes, Dach got half a minute more of PP time for example, and get to play on the first line (which Dach did for like half the year) with good players. Its impact isn’t clear cut.

I see your D+4 vs D+6 comment and counter with Vilardi did it in his second full season in the NHL vs Dach’s fourth season in the NHL. Players breakout at different speeds and at different times. There is no guarantee they will develop linearly as Habs fans should know more than most. I completely disagree it’s “pretty clear” Dach is better. I don’t know why me saying Dach and Vilardi are about even as players at this point is so triggering for some of you. Vilardi isn’t a scrub lol.

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

It’s gonna be his bread and butter though

Xhekaj need that intimidating part in his game to be special

yea probably but maybe abit smarter about it i dont wanna keep losing him because of injuries

 

[Sorinth]

Worse team can also mean your spoon fed minutes, Dach got half a minute more of PP time for example, and get to play on the first line (which Dach did for like half the year) with good players. Its impact isn’t clear cut.

I see your D+4 vs D+6 comment and counter with Vilardi did it in his second full season in the NHL vs Dach’s fourth season in the NHL. Players breakout at different speeds and at different times. There is no guarantee they will develop linearly as Habs fans should know more than most. I completely disagree it’s “pretty clear” Dach is better. I don’t know why me saying Dach and Vilardi are about even as players at this point is so triggering for some of you. Vilardi isn’t a scrub lol.

First off give me a break with the "triggering" nonsense, the post I initially responded didn't say they were even they said Vilardi had proven more then Dach. So shouldn't you also be responding to that poster and trying to tell them they are wrong? Or is it only triggering to you when someone good is said about Dach or the Habs?

Second, you say it's Vilardi's 2nd full season vs 4th for Dach, but one of those 4 seasons for Dach was 18 games. Yet somehow Vilardi's seasons of 25 and 10 games don't count. It's completely dishonest of you.

Third, even if we go by NHL seasons, they both came in during the same year, and Dach has had a better ppg in 3 of the 4 years. And that's on top of being younger and bigger. So yeah there's no doubt Dach has been the better player up to this point in their careers.

 

[Kaladin]

First off give me a break with the "triggering" nonsense, the post I initially responded didn't say they were even they said Vilardi had proven more then Dach. So shouldn't you also be responding to that poster and trying to tell them they are wrong? Or is it only triggering to you when someone good is said about Dach or the Habs?

Second, you say it's Vilardi's 2nd full season vs 4th for Dach, but one of those 4 seasons for Dach was 18 games. Yet somehow Vilardi's seasons of 25 and 10 games don't count. It's completely dishonest of you.

Third, even if we go by NHL seasons, they both came in during the same year, and Dach has had a better ppg in 3 of the 4 years. And that's on top of being younger and bigger. So yeah there's no doubt Dach has been the better player up to this point in their careers.

I actually did respond to that poster and said I see them as even. Scroll up and take a look for yourself. It's okay we all miss posts here and there I don't blame you. Apologies if it doesn't fit your narrative.

Full season in nhl implies it wasn't split time with any other league. Vilardi split those other seasons in the AHL. That's all I meant by it. Dach has stuck in the NHL since he joined. I think that's a pretty fair interpretation of what I said not sure where' you're getting dishonest from.

Dach was playing with Patrick Kane while Vilardi was slumming it on the 3rd/4th line in his early games. Let's not devolve this debate into nonsense Sorinth come on you're better than that. He's 1.5 years younger and 1 inch taller lol. Does that 1 inch really move mountains for you in terms of player evaluation? I'm intrigued by this level of analysis. My point here isn't to say Dach isn't good. I really like him and view him as part of our core. Vilardi just happens to be a player in the NHL that is just as good at this point. Every team's fans overrate their own players and downplay players on other teams. It's okay if you're suffering from it too. I'm just trying to bring some more reality to this conversation that's all.

 

[Sorinth]

I actually did respond to that poster and said I see them as even. Scroll up and take a look for yourself. It's okay we all miss posts here and there I don't blame you. Apologies if it doesn't fit your narrative.

You mean the post were you said the other poster was right?

Full season in nhl implies it wasn't split time with any other league. Vilardi split those other seasons in the AHL. That's all I meant by it. Dach has stuck in the NHL since he joined. I think that's a pretty fair interpretation of what I said not sure where' you're getting dishonest from.

Dach was playing with Patrick Kane while Vilardi was slumming it on the 3rd/4th line in his early games. Let's not devolve this debate into nonsense Sorinth come on you're better than that. He's 1.5 years younger and 1 inch taller lol. Does that 1 inch really move mountains for you in terms of player evaluation? I'm intrigued by this level of analysis. My point here isn't to say Dach isn't good. I really like him and view him as part of our core. Vilardi just happens to be a player in the NHL that is just as good at this point. Every team's fans overrate their own players and downplay players on other teams. It's okay if you're suffering from it too. I'm just trying to bring some more reality to this conversation that's all.

18 games counts as a full season for one player but 25 games doesn't for another. It's dishonest and you know it. Besides which even if you try to split hairs and say seasons where someone played in the AHL don't count as full seasons then Dach's rookie year wouldn't count because he played in the AHL that year. But I'm sure having pointed that out you'll change tune again about what constitues a full season. Not too mention that spending half a year in the AHL is just more evidence that Dach has been better.

Vilardi is a good young player but he hasn't been as good as Dach just like he isn't as tall and isn't as young. He may be close but this isn't horseshoes.

 

[DAChampion]

Vilardi is a good young player but he hasn't been as good as Dach just like he isn't as tall and isn't as young. He may be close but this isn't horseshoes.

And Vilardi plays a less valuable position. In terms of trade value, Dach > Vilardi.

Circling back to the original point that triggered Kaladin, the Habs will have the surplus assets necessary to acquire a star forward on the level of Clayton Keller within the next two years, as long as the D in the system progress moderately well.

They will not need to trade Dach+Slafkovsky+Reinbacher+1st, or whatever.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

I actually did respond to that poster and said I see them as even. Scroll up and take a look for yourself. It's okay we all miss posts here and there I don't blame you. Apologies if it doesn't fit your narrative.

Full season in nhl implies it wasn't split time with any other league. Vilardi split those other seasons in the AHL. That's all I meant by it. Dach has stuck in the NHL since he joined. I think that's a pretty fair interpretation of what I said not sure where' you're getting dishonest from.

Dach was playing with Patrick Kane while Vilardi was slumming it on the 3rd/4th line in his early games. Let's not devolve this debate into nonsense Sorinth come on you're better than that. He's 1.5 years younger and 1 inch taller lol. Does that 1 inch really move mountains for you in terms of player evaluation? I'm intrigued by this level of analysis. My point here isn't to say Dach isn't good. I really like him and view him as part of our core. Vilardi just happens to be a player in the NHL that is just as good at this point. Every team's fans overrate their own players and downplay players on other teams. It's okay if you're suffering from it too. I'm just trying to bring some more reality to this conversation that's all.

Vilardi may be as good at this point but Dach has far more upside than he does. And playing with Kane doesn't Mean anything. Kane does nothing for other players. They either figure out how to play with him or they don't. And like Newhook as soon as he makes a mistake or 2 he loses his spot.

 

[Kaladin]

You mean the post were you said the other poster was right?

The post where he said Vilardi showed more to date (which is what you quoted as well) and I responded to say I felt they were even instead. Otherwise known as disagreeing with another's point of view.

18 games counts as a full season for one player but 25 games doesn't for another. It's dishonest and you know it. Besides which even if you try to split hairs and say seasons where someone played in the AHL don't count as full seasons then Dach's rookie year wouldn't count because he played in the AHL that year. But I'm sure having pointed that out you'll change tune again about what constitues a full season. Not too mention that spending half a year in the AHL is just more evidence that Dach has been better.

Vilardi is a good young player but he hasn't been as good as Dach just like he isn't as tall and isn't as young. He may be close but this isn't horseshoes.

I don't know it. It's a well known definition for "full season" in NHL. Fair enough if you want to count Dach's conditioning stint of 3 games lol in his first year in the NHL as not being a full season. It' still Dach with 3 full seasons in the NHL vs 2 full seasons for Vilardi. My original point stands.

He's literally by all accounts been as good as Dach. Even @Boss Man Hughes has come around to acknowledge this point lol. You can stay in your sinking sand holding on to a point that has no facts to back it up. Dach may have more upside, that part is subjective and I won't argue it. But to date they are essentially comparable at this point in time.

And Vilardi plays a less valuable position. In terms of trade value, Dach > Vilardi.

Circling back to the original point that triggered Kaladin, the Habs will have the surplus assets necessary to acquire a star forward on the level of Clayton Keller within the next two years, as long as the D in the system progress moderately well.

They will not need to trade Dach+Slafkovsky+Reinbacher+1st, or whatever.

Vilardi will play C for the Jets, has played at the C position for the Kings in the past and has a better face off % vs. Dach. If position is the only reason why you think Dach is worth more than Vilardi let's dismiss it now.

 

[Kaladin]

Vilardi may be as good at this point but Dach has far more upside than he does. And playing with Kane doesn't Mean anything. Kane dos nothing for other players. They either figure out how to play with him or they don't. And like Newhook as soon as he makes a mistake or 2 he loses his spot.

Thank you for agreeing Vilardi has been as good as Dach at this point. I appreciate some fairmindedness.

I think we both know Dach didn't lose his spots with the Hawks after mistakes. They gave him a lot of leeway there thanks to him being a 3rd overall pick as they should and as most teams do. Also, playing with stars helps pad the stats. Everyone knows that. I don't care what type of star you are.

 

[Sorinth]

The post where he said Vilardi showed more to date (which is what you quoted as well) and I responded to say I felt they were even instead. Otherwise known as disagreeing with another's point of view.

Your response to that was "Yeah", your response to my post was lol

I don't know it. It's a well known definition for "full season" in NHL. Fair enough if you want to count Dach's conditioning stint of 3 games lol in his first year in the NHL as not being a full season. It' still Dach with 3 full seasons in the NHL vs 2 full seasons for Vilardi. My original point stands.

He's literally by all accounts been as good as Dach. Even @Boss Man Hughes has come around to acknowledge this point lol. You can stay in your sinking sand holding on to a point that has no facts to back it up. Dach may have more upside, that part is subjective and I won't argue it. But to date they are essentially comparable at this point in time.

Vilardi will play C for the Jets, has played at the C position for the Kings in the past and has a better face off % vs. Dach. If position is the only reason why you think Dach is worth more than Vilardi let's dismiss it now.

I'm just trying to understand your definition of a full season because in my view 18 games out of 82 doesn't make a full season. Would you describe Galchenyuk's 2011-2012 season in the OHL to be a full season, he was injured the whole year and played 2 games? But hey he didn't play in a different league so injury or no he played a full season there right?

 

[Kaladin]

Your response to that was "Yeah", your response to my post was lol

I'm just trying to understand your definition of a full season because in my view 18 games out of 82 doesn't make a full season. Would you describe Galchenyuk's 2011-2012 season in the OHL to be a full season, he was injured the whole year and played 2 games? But hey he didn't play in a different league so injury or no he played a full season there right?

You know what they call it when people retreat into semantics to defend a point? Clutching at straws.

If we’re not going to count any season that isn’t the whole 82 games as a full season than neither Dach or Vilardi have ever played a full season. Doesn’t change the fact they just put identical ppg’s, at pretty much the same size, can both play W and C, have both suffered through injuries, Vilardi did it with less PP TOI, Dach relied on the PP more for his points, Dach has better vision, worse shot, got a lot of his points playing with our two best players in Suzuki and Caufield, Vilardi also had some time with Kopitar etc. on all the real metrics it’s a wash between them.

Vilardi is going to a team that will value him like the habs value Dach and his opportunities will increase. This is a good, fair comparison. This isn’t a hill worth dying on Sorinth. Let’s just agree to disagree.

 

[NekkiChiconey]

So, it appears that Elias Pettersson is not discussing an extension right now and wants to wait and see how the season starts/goes (Friedman interview)...

Wouldn't he be an amazing target for us next summer if he decides to ask for a trade? Still RFA, 25 yo, and probably would be the best Habs player in the last 25 years by a wide margin. I guess the situation is somewhat similar to Tkachuk's last year, but Vancouver wouldn't want the same type of return I believe (more inclined on younger pieces).

What would you be willing to give? Does it start with our 2024 1st (let's say 7th overall) and a young D-man like Guhle?

 

[Andy]

So, it appears that Elias Pettersson is not discussing an extension right now and wants to wait and see how the season starts/goes (Friedman interview)...

Wouldn't he be an amazing target for us next summer if he decides to ask for a trade? Still RFA, 25 yo, and probably would be the best Habs player in the last 25 years by a wide margin. I guess the situation is somewhat similar to Tkachuk's last year, but Vancouver wouldn't want the same type of return I believe (more inclined on younger pieces).

What would you be willing to give? Does it start with our 2024 1st (let's say 7th overall) and a young D-man like Guhle?

If things sour in Vancouver, that is definitely the player the habs should target.

It seems the long-standing issue in VAN is that they do not want a rebuilt and I think they might seek a lateral type of trade instead of one for futures.

 

[Vachon23]

So, it appears that Elias Pettersson is not discussing an extension right now and wants to wait and see how the season starts/goes (Friedman interview)...

Wouldn't he be an amazing target for us next summer if he decides to ask for a trade? Still RFA, 25 yo, and probably would be the best Habs player in the last 25 years by a wide margin. I guess the situation is somewhat similar to Tkachuk's last year, but Vancouver wouldn't want the same type of return I believe (more inclined on younger pieces).

What would you be willing to give? Does it start with our 2024 1st (let's say 7th overall) and a young D-man like Guhle?

If he become available, we need to be all in on that one

 

[Tyson]

If he become available, we need to be all in on that one

Over paying for one player rarely works out well.

 

[Deebs]

So, it appears that Elias Pettersson is not discussing an extension right now and wants to wait and see how the season starts/goes (Friedman interview)...

Wouldn't he be an amazing target for us next summer if he decides to ask for a trade? Still RFA, 25 yo, and probably would be the best Habs player in the last 25 years by a wide margin. I guess the situation is somewhat similar to Tkachuk's last year, but Vancouver wouldn't want the same type of return I believe (more inclined on younger pieces).

What would you be willing to give? Does it start with our 2024 1st (let's say 7th overall) and a young D-man like Guhle?

I'd give up three 1st rounders and a couple of prospects or something similar. I wouldn't go full blown equivalent of a $10M+ offer sheet, but I'd be willing to get real close.

 

[Vachon23]

Over paying for one player rarely works out well.

Both teams in the final this year where all in on a all star player in the past years

Occassion to acquired a player of EP caliber are rare and you won’t draft someone of his caliber at 95 %