Trade Ideas

[Detroit Knights]

Gross. He's scored approximately the same as DeBrincat over the last 5 years but health problems and the fact that he's going to be 29 soon make me not want it. Lifer contract that instead of 5-6 good years we might get 3.

assume we don't get debrincat...now what-say-you?

 

[dekelikekocur]

You've clearly demonstrated why Ottawa gave up so much for him and why he's an exciting add from my perspective: He's a very good player. And this Red Wings team lacks very good players. So it's easy to convince me of the value here.

In reading through the pages and pages of posts about this, there's really two schools of thought.

1) Adding talent and sort out the rest as you go.
2) Lock down premium, elite players first and then move to adding wingers and such to "get over the hump."

There's a significant fear in group 2 that adding DeBrincat will stifle the acquisition of better players. Either due to the salary cap or simply rising out of top 10 draft picks.

And I just never understand group 2.

How many times have we drafted up threads projecting a roster 3-4 years out and literally half the players we slotted into the lineup are gone or washed out by that time?

I certainly had Vrana penciled in a bit longer.

I also don't understand the fear in adding talented players and, oh no, we have too many talented players! Trades happen. There's ways to negotiate around the cap if there comes a time hard decisions have to be made. "Cap hell" only exists if your team sucks and everyone has a high cap hit. But we've seen teams even negotiate around that.

The point is, worrying that DeBrincat moves the needle next year is so shortsighted. Keep adding good players as they become available, when you can. Not when it's perfect timing. You're never going to know when the timing is perfect.

One of the best scoring wingers is available today. Don't let the fear about this next season or two make it impossible to appreciate his playoff contributions in 3+ years are the real goal here.

And if you want a team that's been operating in that mode, it's Vegas. 3 years ago they added Petro in a controversial contract at the time for him. They acquired and kept guys like Stone and Marchessault in the core. They were aggressive and added a Eichel, not because he's the perfect #1 franchise center... Because he's a really good player. They kept adding really good players when they could and it all came together in a year nobody was picking them.

Add talent. Keep grinding. Stop trying to build the perfect scenario at the perfect time.

The worry isn't that he'll move the needle, it's that he doesn't move the needle due to how many other spots we need to fill. No reason to waste assets now when we first need to figure out what we currently have drafted. Anything prior to Yzerman starting doesn't matter to me, if something pans out from Hollands last few years cool, if not, I don't care. We're just now starting to see some of our 2nd round and later picks show up in GR, we've done well with Yzerman's first round picks (Cossa being the biggest question mark amongst them) and it's not like making the playoffs this year or next really matter, so why waste draft capital when 2 years from now we'll have a better idea of exactly where we stand with first round picks and more later round picks start showing up. Then we assess what we need and start working trades.

 

[Hen Kolland]

The worry isn't that he'll move the needle, it's that he doesn't move the needle due to how many other spots we need to fill. No reason to waste assets now when we first need to figure out what we currently have drafted. Anything prior to Yzerman starting doesn't matter to me, if something pans out from Hollands last few years cool, if not, I don't care. We're just now starting to see some of our 2nd round and later picks show up in GR, we've done well with Yzerman's first round picks (Cossa being the biggest question mark amongst them) and it's not like making the playoffs this year or next really matter, so why waste draft capital when 2 years from now we'll have a better idea of exactly where we stand with first round picks and more later round picks start showing up. Then we assess what we need and start working trades.

So your entire notion is that the team doesn't know if it's shitty or not, despite being among the worst teams in the past decade (and probably the worst for the past 5), and therefore they can't attempt to get better.

 

[heyfolks]

Avid fans on a hockey forum know more about hockey then most Yahoo beat writers who aren't insiders like most of their hockey writers are. Rarely agree with anything I have ever seen written by someone writing about hockey on Yahoo.

You appear to rarely agree with anyone here.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

So your entire notion is that the team doesn't know if it's shitty or not, despite being among the worst teams in the past decade (and probably the worst for the past 5), and therefore they can't attempt to get better.

Don't you know, we are only allowed to make one signing or trade in the next 8 years. We can't waste it on DeBrincat.

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[OgeeOgelthorpe]

assume we don't get debrincat...now what-say-you?

Not for 9th overall. Again I point to his contract having 7 more years at 8.5 million AAV.

DeBrincat's average over the last 3 years is 0.83 PPG. He's a pending RFA that is 25.
Forsberg's average over the last 3 years is 1.00 ppg. This is balooned by the 1.22 PPG he scored during his UFA contract year between years his average was 0.82ppg and 0.84 ppg. He is also turning 29 in 7 weeks or so.

So, of those years left on Forsberg's contract I'm expecting him to have about 3 seasons at his career average before injury and age catch up to him. The guy hasn't played more than 80% of his team's games since 2017-18. Meanwhile, DeBrincat on an 8 year deal, having not dealt with any major injuries just keeps on chugging along. By the time he's 33 when the deal is done is when he's probably 2nd line material.

 

[heyfolks]

Been reading his contract demands are an obstacle. Good. I like the guy and all, but let him play out his current deal and sign him as a UFA, or just pass. This team needs too many parts, and has a few big contracts they need to sign this year or next, to get locked into this guy today.

Like him but that prices tag, cap space, draft picks and prospects empties a cupboard still being stocked by the Wings.

 

[Bench]

The worry isn't that he'll move the needle, it's that he doesn't move the needle due to how many other spots we need to fill. No reason to waste assets now when we first need to figure out what we currently have drafted.

You're arguing there's some kind of magical order or operations for building a roster.

Add good players when good players are available.

Adding someone talented that helps win, at any position, is not "wasting assets." Additionally, better teams attract better players in both FA and trades.

If you have a gutted roster of prospects and journeyman contracts, if a star #1 center hits the market why the hell does he want to join Detroit? He might look more favorably at that move if there's a 30-40 goal scorer already locked in.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

Been reading his contract demands are an obstacle. Good. I like the guy and all, but let him play out his current deal and sign him as a UFA, or just pass. This team needs too many parts, and has a few big contracts they need to sign this year or next, to get locked into this guy today.

Like him but that prices tag, cap space, draft picks and prospects empties a cupboard still being stocked by the Wings.

Wings have 4 first round picks in the next two years and 30 million+ in cap space with a cap that is expected to rise quite a bit.

There isn't really a good reason to not want him unless you think we can get a better player with the assets.

(Hint: We can't)

 

[DTR]

 

[norrisnick]

Wings have 4 first round picks in the next two years and 30 million+ in cap space with a cap that is expected to rise quite a bit.

There isn't really a good reason to not want him unless you think we can get a better player with the assets.

(Hint: We can't)

If we can't get a better player than DeBrincat we may as well pack it in and call it a franchise.

Connor, Lindholm, Keller if we toss enough stuff at Arizona, etc...

There are better players than DeBrincat to be had.

And that's my viewpoint. I'd rather pay more for better than half-ass it with DeBrincat.

f***, toss all four 1sts at Boston and see if they blink regarding Pasta.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

If we can't get a better player than DeBrincat we may as well pack it in and call it a franchise.

Connor, Lindholm, Keller if we toss enough stuff at Arizona, etc...

There are better players than DeBrincat to be had.

And that's my viewpoint. I'd rather pay more for better than half-ass it with DeBrincat.

I don't think Connor or Keller are legit available, and I think you could get both Lindholm and DeBrincat and keep our own 1sts in 23 and 24.

I would pay a hell of a lot more for Connor and Keller than DBC or Lindholm.

 

[Frk It]

Wings have 4 first round picks in the next two years and 30 million+ in cap space with a cap that is expected to rise quite a bit.

There isn't really a good reason to not want him unless you think we can get a better player with the assets.

(Hint: We can't)

This is always what happens.

"Oh we can just wait and get this less flawed player without giving up as many assets on a more team-friendly deal eventually..."

Yeah ok... when?

 

[dekelikekocur]

So your entire notion is that the team doesn't know if it's shitty or not, despite being among the worst teams in the past decade (and probably the worst for the past 5), and therefore they can't attempt to get better.

We know we're shitty what we don't know is if we have any answers for that currently in the pipeline. People need to stop thinking "We've been rebuilding forever" The real rebuild started when yzerman arrived and we've had shit draft luck for top 3 picks coming our way. There is no trading out of our current situation, we need to establish a pipeline(which Yzerman has been doing) and see what pans out before we start selling futures for a chance at being a bubble team.

You're arguing there's some kind of magical order or operations for building a roster.

Add good players when good players are available.

Adding someone talented that helps win, at any position, is not "wasting assets." Additionally, better teams attract better players in both FA and trades.

If you have a gutted roster of prospects and journeyman contracts, if a star #1 center hits the market why the hell does he want to join Detroit? He might look more favorably at that move if there's a 30-40 goal scorer already locked in.

I'm arguing that filling a less important role using draft/futures is a waste of assets and that we need to focus on building the important pieces out first. Center, Defensive D.

Soft scoring wingers isn't a priority. They aren't going to change the trajectory in the least bit.

 

[Hen Kolland]

If we can't get a better player than DeBrincat we may as well pack it in and call it a franchise.

Connor, Lindholm, Keller if we toss enough stuff at Arizona, etc...

There are better players than DeBrincat to be had.

And that's my viewpoint. I'd rather pay more for better than half-ass it with DeBrincat.

f***, toss all four 1sts at Boston and see if they blink regarding Pasta.

Good job, you named 4 players, none of which have been made publicly available. The Jets have said they are retooling and Connor isn't one of the pieces they are likely to move. Arizona isn't selling the only top end player they have. Lindholm is still in contract negotiations with Calgary. Boston is clearing cap to continue trying to compete with Pasta.

So even if you could get one to cave and agree to a trade, it would be at a massive overpayment because the teams aren't actively shopping the players. You would rather overpay for anything rather than get a cheaper trade and pay a player market value. Awesome.

 

[norrisnick]

Good job, you named 4 players, none of which have been made publicly available. The Jets have said they are retooling and Connor isn't one of the pieces they are likely to move. Arizona isn't selling the only top end player they have. Lindholm is still in contract negotiations with Calgary. Boston is clearing cap to continue trying to compete with Pasta.

So even if you could get one to cave and agree to a trade, it would be at a massive overpayment because the teams aren't actively shopping the players. You would rather overpay for anything rather than get a cheaper trade and pay a player market value. Awesome.

Yes, I would rather overpay and get the better player.

Hronek wasn't made publicly available and we gave him up easy enough when we got an offer too good to turn down.

It happens.

 

[OneMoreTry]

No, $8 million over 40 years. Get it right

2nd half of the contract will come at 1$/year and have him play with our new minor league affiliate in Pyongyang.

 

[Hen Kolland]

We know we're shitty what we don't know is if we have any answers for that currently in the pipeline. People need to stop thinking "We've been rebuilding forever" The real rebuild started when yzerman arrived and we've had shit draft luck for top 3 picks coming our way. There is no trading out of our current situation, we need to establish a pipeline(which Yzerman has been doing) and see what pans out before we start selling futures for a chance at being a bubble team.

The rebuild started when we were picking Michael Rasmussen in the top 10. The rebuild started when we started accumulating draft picks for the 2018 draft. Steve's timeline didn't start, but don't get it twisted, the rebuild has been going on.

We don't have the answers in the pipeline. We aren't getting all the answers in the draft class. We aren't getting lottery luck to make life easy on us. This is the classic, you make your own luck situation. And we haven't even made an attempt yet.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

What I'm hearing is that we all want to just keep kicking tires and/or hope that future HoFers land in SY's lap. Good luck with that.

I guess this contentment of Wings fans to do nothing rather than do anything is why CI feels so content to let his two teams swim in mediocrity.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Yes, I would rather overpay and get the better player.

Hronek wasn't made publicly available and we gave him up easy enough when we got an offer too good to turn down.

It happens.

So do your job worse = doing your job better?

 

[Frk It]

We know we're shitty what we don't know is if we have any answers for that currently in the pipeline. People need to stop thinking "We've been rebuilding forever" The real rebuild started when yzerman arrived and we've had shit draft luck for top 3 picks coming our way. There is no trading out of our current situation, we need to establish a pipeline(which Yzerman has been doing) and see what pans out before we start selling futures for a chance at being a bubble team.


I'm arguing that filling a less important role using draft/futures is a waste of assets and that we need to focus on building the important pieces out first. Center, Defensive D.

Soft scoring wingers isn't a priority. They aren't going to change the trajectory in the least bit.

We are not going to get all of the pieces for this re-build from the draft. No one hits on enough of their picks to do that.

 

[norrisnick]

So do your job worse = doing your job better?

Is #17 and Boston's 1st + Veleno for Connor doing a worse job than #17 + Veleno for DeBrincat at 8 x $8.5M?

 

[NickH8]

Is #17 and Boston's 1st + Veleno for Connor doing a worse job than #17 + Veleno for DeBrincat at 8 x $8.5M?

You're not getting Connor for that. No way.

 

[dekelikekocur]

We are not going to get all of the pieces for this re-build from the draft. No one hits on enough of their picks to do that.

I don't expect us, but till high priority parts are in place there's literally no reason to trade for filler parts that waste chances of those high priority parts being filled (either via draft or trade).

Till our center depth is fixed and our defense is fixed, who really gives a rats ass about wingers?

When has Detroit ever really cared about trading for wingers? They do not matter if you have the center locked down and defense locked down.

 

[norrisnick]

You're not getting Connor for that. No way.

Then add another 1st.

Just secure the better player.

Lemme guess, you guys would have preferred saving the extra 1st rounder traded for Shanahan and we got Hull for just Primeau and Coffey in '96 instead?