Trade Ideas

[saska sault]

I believe in Larkin and Seider.
I hope in Raymond, Edvinsson, and Kasper.
Everybody else on this roster and in the pipeline are varying degrees of easily replaceable.

We agree that this team needs first line talent.
We disagree that there might be significant consequences to adding it. (I'm fine with being picky about who we add, but I have zero concerns about how many dollars are left once we add them, because I see a VERY short list of guys I'm not willing to risk losing/replacing if it comes down to that, versus how desperately the team needs a high-end add or two.)

Exactly, so many guys are still fighting for their future on this team.. they can be moved. Copp, Chiarot, Fabbri, Maatta, Husso, Kubalik.. all those guys are potential stop gaps. Some I want to keep to varying degrees but for the better of the team, see yah if needed. We have guys like Ras, Berggren and prospects we can move to trade our small pieces for a larger one. Cap space is not going to be a problem, Larkin has a good deal and no one else is really a long term commitment, flexibility for years.
Zadina.. I still have hope. Not ready to give up on him completely, but he is also gone easily if needed.

 

[norrisnick]

I believe in Larkin and Seider.
I hope in Raymond, Edvinsson, and Kasper.
Everybody else on this roster and in the pipeline are varying degrees of easily replaceable.

We agree that this team needs first line talent.
We disagree that there might be significant consequences to adding it. (I'm fine with being picky about who we add, but I have zero concerns about how many dollars are left once we add them, because I see a VERY short list of guys I'm not willing to risk losing/replacing if it comes down to that, versus how desperately the team needs a high-end add or two.)

I strongly disagree with the word easily.

 

[jkutswings]

I strongly disagree with the word easily.

Name one player other than the guys I singled out who would be difficult to replace. Everybody else is either a decent veteran stopgap or an unproven question mark.

The only guy I can think of that might qualify is Rasmussen, and while I like his trajectory, he's not primed to explode into a massive deal.

So who exactly are you so concerned about? Guys will either provide good value or get dealt.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

I strongly disagree with the word easily.

I don’t. You can like the pieces and like them a lot. But basically any player that is not those five listed? They’re 100% replaceable. They’re not all going to hit. And they’re easily replaceable because the Wings have assets and flexibility.

Like how guys in the vein of Brendan Smith, Xavier Ouellet, Jakub Kindl, and Ryan Sproul weren’t easily replaceable… until they all flamed out and they were

The Wings have a lot of intriguing prospects in the pipeline. However, Edvinsson, Cossa, and Kasper are just about the only ones I’d slap “probable or likely NHL career” onto. Guys like Wallinder have a lot of potential runway to develop and could be real nice additions… but what makes them different than any other team’s nice prospects?

 

[DamonDRW]

In my opinion we need to wait with the trades until we see that at least one of our forward prospects (preferably two) is developing into a star player. Otherwise, the next rebuilt is within 4-7 years.

 

[norrisnick]

Name one player other than the guys I singled out who would be difficult to replace. Everybody else is either a decent veteran stopgap or an unproven question mark.

The only guy I can think of that might qualify is Rasmussen, and while I like his trajectory, he's not primed to explode into a massive deal.

Rasmussen was top of my list largely because Tampa just gave up an entire draft class to get essentially the same player.

Kubalik is a proven 20-30 goal scorer. Not going to find one of those at $2.5M every summer. His next deal, or a reasonable replacement, is going to be $4-5M

Defensemen of Walman and Maatta's quality don't usually fall in teams' laps like they did ours. Replacing them at anywhere near $3M/yr, not very easy.

A center as good or better than Copp is not going to be any cheaper unless you just drafted him and he's on his ELC or 2nd contract.

Again, it's not that replacements aren't possible, but "easily" implies dirt cheap ready to plug in bodies are always readily available. That's not the case.

Not paying hand over fist for your middle of the lineup guys is really the key to being successful. It allows you to pay guys at the top, provided you get your hands on players like that.

 

[Gniwder]

A second for Peeke? He's a 20+ minute a night guy on a lottery team. Career high of...15 points and a career -58. He doesn't play ahead of Seider, Ed, Maatta, Walman, or Chiarot. You're just trolling us at this point.

I'd give a second for Peeke.... only if they take -31 Chairot with it, and they can keep Peeke too, lol.

 

[Gniwder]

Rasmussen was top of my list largely because Tampa just gave up an entire draft class to get essentially the same player.

Kubalik is a proven 20-30 goal scorer. Not going to find one of those at $2.5M every summer. His next deal, or a reasonable replacement, is going to be $4-5M

Defensemen of Walman and Maatta's quality don't usually fall in teams' laps like they did ours. Replacing them at anywhere near $3M/yr, not very easy.

A center as good or better than Copp is not going to be any cheaper unless you just drafted him and he's on his ELC or 2nd contract.

Again, it's not that replacements aren't possible, but "easily" implies dirt cheap ready to plug in bodies are always readily available. That's not the case.

Not paying hand over fist for your middle of the lineup guys is really the key to being successful. It allows you to pay guys at the top, provided you get your hands on players like that.

You've basically managed to hit the salary cap with a lottery team in your last 3 or 4 posts. You'd make a great GM. If that's where this team is headed, Stevie might as well blow it up next season.

I wouldn't be surprised if none of the guys you mentioned in your last post (Copp/Walman/Maatta/Kubalik) get re-signed again, if they all do then it's time to revamp the scouting team. Fabbri, Zadina, Husso, CHiarot (eventually), Abby's buyout, and Vrana's retention will be gone as well. If the team runs into cap issues they can also let Perron walk.

I like Walman but if he winds up playing top pair with Seider, he's going to command a higher salary than he's worth. Even then, I think he'll probably be the only one out of those players mentioned that gets re-signed.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Rasmussen was top of my list largely because Tampa just gave up an entire draft class to get essentially the same player.

Kubalik is a proven 20-30 goal scorer. Not going to find one of those at $2.5M every summer. His next deal, or a reasonable replacement, is going to be $4-5M

Defensemen of Walman and Maatta's quality don't usually fall in teams' laps like they did ours. Replacing them at anywhere near $3M/yr, not very easy.

A center as good or better than Copp is not going to be any cheaper unless you just drafted him and he's on his ELC or 2nd contract.

Again, it's not that replacements aren't possible, but "easily" implies dirt cheap ready to plug in bodies are always readily available. That's not the case.

Not paying hand over fist for your middle of the lineup guys is really the key to being successful. It allows you to pay guys at the top, provided you get your hands on players like that.

Kubalik is also a flawed, one-dimensional player.

Guys like Walman and Maatta don’t fall into your lap? Where did they get them again? Right, Maatta off the FA scrap heap and Walman as a toss-in to the Leddy rental.

Guy like Copp is available annually in FA for about that salary.

Tampa gave up an entire draft class for Jeannot because JBB has them hard ramming the cap and they wanted to add a “cheap, good player” and it worked out in acquiring Hagel. Jeannot’s trade value has no bearing on Rasmussen’s contract. I agree that he probably ends up 2.5-3M on a couple year bridge, but Tampa giving up a draft class for Jeannot is not indicative of anything.

Lastly, I’m confused. Your last paragraph says overpaying for your middle of the line up guys is bad. The only one stating that we should or that they’ll be more expensive than we will want is you.

I like the middle of the lineup guys we have… but if Michael Rasmussen wants 4m+ with his track record, he can pound sand and we can trade him. If Dominik Kubalik thinks he’s worth 5M+, he can avoid having the door hit his ass on the way out by scurrying away.

I will also bet you that we add some D in this off-season in the vein of a Maatta for a cheap-ish deal. The veteran bargain pickup that solidifies the #5 or 6D is certainly a very common thing.

 

[Gniwder]

Not paying hand over fist for your middle of the lineup guys is really the key to being successful. It allows you to pay guys at the top, provided you get your hands on players like that.

No, not overpaying every player by $1M is the key. There are 23 players on the roster so that adds up to $23M that you want to overpay with your estimates. It's how you ended up capping out with a lottery team roster.

This is why I hate Copp, Zadina, and Chiarot's contracts. That's easily $3M right there. It's also why Zadina won't get a $2.7M QO when his contract is over. Fabbri is probably gone as well. Raymond won't get as much as you think, he's a second line winger with no arbitration rights.

I'm actually OK with DBoss' contract, without him this is easily a bottom 3 team. Plus he's had to endure this dumpster fire for his entire career. Certainly more than I prefer, but I don't think Stevie had a choice.

 

[Henkka]

No, not overpaying every player by $1M is the key. There are 23 players on the roster so that adds up to $23M that you want to overpay with your estimates. It's how you ended up capping out with a lottery team roster.

I also like rather underpay that 1M than overpay. Under pay by 1M for every multimillion contract and you have 100M valued players under 83.5M cap.

This is why I hate Copp, Zadina, and Chiarot's contracts. That's easily $3M right there. It's also why Zadina won't get a $2.7M QO when his contract is over. Fabbri is probably gone as well. Raymond won't get as much as you think, he's a second line winger with no arbitration rights.

Think those contracts will still be meaningless during their lifetime.

I'm actually OK with DBoss' contract, without him this is easily a bottom 3 team. Plus he's had to endure this dumpster fire for his entire career. Certainly more than I prefer, but I don't think Stevie had a choice.

It was a 400k bargain versus the best estimates. Or maybe bigger if we'll see huge cap jumo during those 8 years to 110M level. Everybody should be just happy.

 

[Henkka]

Tampa, Dallas, Vegas, Florida
- Nice contenders, which can't fit him under the cap without major moves, almost impossible move for all those teams.

Nashville
- Team which will be heading on a rebuild? Why would you commit there?

Detroit
- Raising up from a rebuild. Hometown team.

 

[Henkka]

Konecny, Sanheim among six Philadelphia Flyers on Trade Targets Top 40

New Flyers GM Danny Briere is ready to begin the rebuild in Philadelphia.

www.dailyfaceoff.com

Wouldn't be suprised at all, if Yzerman will get Ross Colton traded from Tampa.

 

[norrisnick]

Kubalik is also a flawed, one-dimensional player.

Guys like Walman and Maatta don’t fall into your lap? Where did they get them again? Right, Maatta off the FA scrap heap and Walman as a toss-in to the Leddy rental.

Guy like Copp is available annually in FA for about that salary.

Tampa gave up an entire draft class for Jeannot because JBB has them hard ramming the cap and they wanted to add a “cheap, good player” and it worked out in acquiring Hagel. Jeannot’s trade value has no bearing on Rasmussen’s contract. I agree that he probably ends up 2.5-3M on a couple year bridge, but Tampa giving up a draft class for Jeannot is not indicative of anything.

Lastly, I’m confused. Your last paragraph says overpaying for your middle of the line up guys is bad. The only one stating that we should or that they’ll be more expensive than we will want is you.

I like the middle of the lineup guys we have… but if Michael Rasmussen wants 4m+ with his track record, he can pound sand and we can trade him. If Dominik Kubalik thinks he’s worth 5M+, he can avoid having the door hit his ass on the way out by scurrying away.

I will also bet you that we add some D in this off-season in the vein of a Maatta for a cheap-ish deal. The veteran bargain pickup that solidifies the #5 or 6D is certainly a very common thing.

And what happens when you are turning those guys over year after year? Good luck with any sort of cohesion if you've got to start over with the trust exercises every training camp. 4th liners and 3rd pairing, whatever. But guys in the heart of your lineup that you're counting on for 15 minutes up front or 20 minutes on the back end? Typically better to hang on to ones that work for you.

 

[better Red than Dead]

Konecny, Sanheim among six Philadelphia Flyers on Trade Targets Top 40

New Flyers GM Danny Briere is ready to begin the rebuild in Philadelphia.

www.dailyfaceoff.com

Wouldn't be suprised at all, if Yzerman will get Ross Colton traded from Tampa.

I agree that he will be active with Tampa on trading draft picks for Colton types that free up their cap space

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

View attachment 719677

Tampa, Dallas, Vegas, Florida
- Nice contenders, which can't fit him under the cap without major moves, almost impossible move for all those teams.

Nashville
- Team which will be heading on a rebuild? Why would you commit there?

Detroit
- Raising up from a rebuild. Hometown team.

That’s actually great for us. When the other teams can’t get him without moving other pieces it might lower the price for him.

 

[Henkka]

And what happens when you are turning those guys over year after year? Good luck with any sort of cohesion if you've got to start over with the trust exercises every training camp. 4th liners and 3rd pairing, whatever. But guys in the heart of your lineup that you're counting on for 15 minutes up front or 20 minutes on the back end? Typically better to hang on to ones that work for you.

I don't think we will hang on to much with others than the young nucleus Yzerman said. Right characters and personalities could stay. Yzerman target is to have that Red Wings 90-08 lockerroom with right kind of talent and characters. He knows what kind of people they were and what kind of people will the future be built around. No Probert's, and more Lidström's and Draper's. But it takes some years to find them out, first sign short-term and then extend, if the guy is good.

Vrana simply wasn't a good core guy, as one example.

I don't think is Kubalik any special player. He is fine, but was fine as a bargain. But extending him for market value, that could lead us to wrong direction. Everybody should be a bit of steal, big or small, but still a steal. And not sign long-term, short contracts work well with all Kubaliks, who come and go. Kubalik feels like a player, who'll help a short period of time. And when it's time for expensive extension, he will be traded away and replaced with cheap ELC kid, who has reached same level. etc. this was the process at Tampa Yzerman rolled year after year. You build the timelines right to fit on this plan. Söderblom, Mazur, Kasper, the guys are starting to push people out soon.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

And what happens when you are turning those guys over year after year? Good luck with any sort of cohesion if you've got to start over with the trust exercises every training camp. 4th liners and 3rd pairing, whatever. But guys in the heart of your lineup that you're counting on for 15 minutes up front or 20 minutes on the back end? Typically better to hang on to ones that work for you.

Then you're turning them over year after year. It's just a very weird argument to say the following
1) You don't want to turn over your middle pairing and mid 6 forwards
2) You don't want to overpay them by $1M per year or more
and
3) It's rare to add guys like Walman and Maatta who can make any sort of difference... when we added the two of them in the same offseason (Walman was the prior TDL, but you know what I mean).

I'm so very confused by everything you're saying. If these middle of the lineup guys start wanting too much money for the players they are... you look to move them or walk from them.

 

[norrisnick]

I don't think we will hang on to much with others than the young nucleus Yzerman said. Right characters and personalities could stay. Yzerman target is to have that Red Wings 90-08 lockerroom with right kind of characters. He knows what kind of people they were and what kind of people will the future be built around. No Probert's, and more Lidström's and Draper's. But it takes some years to find them out, first sign short-term and then extend, if the guy is good.

Vrana simply wasn't a good core guy, as one example.

I don't think is Kubalik any special player. He is fine, but was fine as a bargain. But extending him for market value, that could lead us to wrong direction. Everybody should be a bit of steal, big or small, but still a steal. And not sign long-term, short contracts work well with all Kubaliks, who come and go. Kubalik feels like a player, who'll help a short period of time, when it's time to expensive extension, he will be traded and replaced with cheap ELC kid, who has reached same level. etc. this was the process at Tampa Yzerman rolled year after year.

Interesting that you bring up Draper as he is exactly the type of player outside of the core I'm talking about. The Draper, Maltby, Holmstroms that are vital to winning but certainly ought to have been as replaceable as Copp, Ras, Kubalik are now....

 

[norrisnick]

Then you're turning them over year after year. It's just a very weird argument to say the following
1) You don't want to turn over your middle pairing and mid 6 forwards
2) You don't want to overpay them by $1M per year or more
and
3) It's rare to add guys like Walman and Maatta who can make any sort of difference... when we added the two of them in the same offseason (Walman was the prior TDL, but you know what I mean).

I'm so very confused by everything you're saying. If these middle of the lineup guys start wanting too much money for the players they are... you look to move them or walk from them.

That's fine. We'll lowball everyone and see how many good players sign up for it.

If you don't pay your good players what they are worth you aren't going to keep them.

 

[ricky0034]

I believe in Larkin and Seider.
I hope in Raymond, Edvinsson, and Kasper.
Everybody else on this roster and in the pipeline are varying degrees of easily replaceable.

We agree that this team needs first line talent.
We disagree that there might be significant consequences to adding it. (I'm fine with being picky about who we add, but I have zero concerns about how many dollars are left once we add them, because I see a VERY short list of guys I'm not willing to risk losing/replacing if it comes down to that, versus how desperately the team needs a high-end add or two.)

this attitude clashes so heavily with your repeated assertion that the Wings are a lock to make the Playoffs next year

 

[Henkka]

That's fine. We'll lowball everyone and see how many good players sign up for it.

If you don't pay your good players what they are worth you aren't going to keep them.

We just did it with Larkin. Seider will be the next bargain, thanks to RFA years. Also DeBricant could fall to us, because there's no trade market competition (conteders full with their cap) and DeBrincat could take a hometown discount, and is interested, because he will see the fit as Red Wings as the potential rising organization.

Players are not stupid. They know where Wings are heading. DeBrincat has experimented already the falling organization with Hawks. He entered there after the Stanley Cups, just like many guys enterd to Wings after 2009. The success era was gone, but young players won't understand it on that time. They get it afterwards. I'm quite sure DeBrincat sees that he would be a fit and the glory years are ahead at Detroit, not behind, like they were at Chicago.

This is the way to build the damn bargain on every position. If DeBrincat is kind of out of options, just sign him with a bargain. Use your chances. Whatever they are. One-by-one, bit-by-bit, complete the Yzerplan.

 

[norrisnick]

We just did it with Larkin. Seider will be the next bargain, thanks to RFA years. Also DeBricant could fall to us, because there's no trade market competition (conteders full with their cap) and DeBrincat could take a hometown discount, and is interested, because he will see the fit as Red Wings as the potential rising organization.

Players are not stupid. They know where Wings are heading. DeBrincat has experimented already the falling organization with Hawks. He entered there after the Stanley Cups, just like many guys enterd to Wings after 2009. The success era was gone, but young players won't understand it on that time. They get it afterwards. I'm quite sure DeBrincat sees that he would be a fit and the glory years are ahead at Detroit, not behind, like they were at Chicago.

This is the way to build the damn bargain on every position. If DeBrincat is kind of out of options, just sign him with a bargain. Use your chances. Whatever they are.

Did what with Larkin? Move our offer up $1M/yr after a year of negotiations to get closer to his number than ours?. This time last year you and others were shouting left and right that Larkin would sign for less than $8M/yr.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

That’s actually great for us. When the other teams can’t get him without moving other pieces it might lower the price for him.

Florida needs D. At the same time is there a better fit for him on linemates than Tkachuk and Bennett. They have cap space too…

 

[jkutswings]

this attitude clashes so heavily with your repeated assertion that the Wings are a lock to make the Playoffs next year

How so?

For current roster players, saying that several have not yet proven anything isn't the same as saying I'm expecting them to fail.

And saying we need high end talent isn't mutually exclusive to expecting to make the playoffs if I'm expecting them to add enough of that talent between now and the next trade deadline in order to make the playoffs.

The team can currently be a question mark, then add pieces, then have kids take a step forward, and everything starts to fall into place fairly quickly.