Trade Ideas

[jkutswings]

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying we need to target real difference makers that let us compete with those teams that have Barkovs and Hughes and Stutzles up front, and if we can’t get those, then try to build through the draft and be patient. Signing guys like Cat and Lindholm to be the key pieces to take us to a competitive phase is how you end up making the playoffs for a bunch fo years, losing every year in round 1-3, then having to rebuild.

See: Nashville, San Jose, NYI, MTL, Calgary, etc

I think reality requires a little of both. You can't jump the gun before the kids are at least close to ready, but you can't expect to fill every need via the draft.

Goal scoring seems to be the facet Detroit is having the toughest time finding, so I'm totally on board with the right trade to bring some in.

 

[Hoog]

So do we prefer:

Alex Debrincat- trading more assets and signing him for a larger contract

OR

Travis Konecny- at a low $5.5m for two years before signing him for more?

I'm offering Philly #17, AlJo, and a 2024 2nd for Konecny and a 4th this year.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I think reality requires a little of both. You can't jump the gun before the kids are at least close to ready, but you can't expect to fill every need via the draft.

Goal scoring seems to be the facet Detroit is having the toughest time finding, so I'm totally on board with the right trade to bring some in.

Yeah and I think that’s fine. Go ahead and try to acquire it if the price is cheap. But giving up high 1sts is a bad plan because Cat’s goal scoring isn’t going to be the missing piece. We need as many cracks at the can as possible to draft that elite forward if we can’t trade for one (Nylander, Connor, keller). I just don’t believe cat is that elite forward. And Lindholm definitely isn’t.

 

[norrisnick]

So do we prefer:

Alex Debrincat- trading more assets and signing him for a larger contract

OR

Travis Konecny- at a low $5.5m for two years before signing him for more?

I'm offering Philly #17, AlJo, and a 2024 2nd for Konecny and a 4th this year.

I think ultimately on the Wings DeBrincat and Konecny would produce at similar levels. DeBrincat balanced a bit more towards goals than Konecny but overall production pretty similar.

I would lean towards Konecny, due to
1. initial salary, his play will then determine his next contract. If he gets expensive, good. If he doesn't, that's also fine. DeBrincat will be expensive from day one.
2. Konecny has led the Flyers in scoring 3 of the last 4 seasons. He has been the focal point. Less overall production, but things pretty obviously run through him.

Unfortunately that likely means he's not available. You're definitely not getting a 4th along with him and it might need to be a '24 1st rather than 2nd. Do I do #17 + '24 1st (Bos) + AlJo? Probably? Do I offer that to Ari for Keller first? Yes. Do I offer that to WPG for Connor first? Yes.

But, at least if Konecny doesn't develop beyond a 25-30G 50-60 point player on our team, we can hopefully keep his contract in that realm rather than being committed to top line winger money.

EDIT - well, nevermind on Keller. Arizona is apparently trying to field a team this year.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

I'm down to play this game. For now DeBrincat can be a placeholder for a similarly salaried winger.

Some key questions.
1. What is the contract for DeBrincat and the extension for Lindholm? 8x$8.5M for DeBrincat/Mystery Winger and 8x$8M for Lindholm? That seems to be market value, right?
2. Are there any efforts to shore up the right side of the defense behind Mo?
3. What are the plans for Perron and Kubalik after this year? Kubalik would need a substantial raise if retained.
4. Are we locking in Mo and Ray for full term? Trying to bridge? Same question for Ras and Bergie (provided he survives the trade).

I keep stressing these points in various threads because there are 4 players under a combined contract of $4.2M this season (the ones referenced in question 4) that we'll be hard pressed to keep under a combined $20M next season. We have what looks like a ton of cap space this year. But any additions that are beyond one year, will need to be carefully scrutinized.

The cap is also expected to not just increase but explode up after being steady for years.

2024-25 Detroit Red Wings Cap Table

The Detroit Red Wings 2024-25 salary cap table, including salary cap table, including team cap space, player cap hits, incentives, & bonus info.

www.spotrac.com

From what I've read, they're anticipating cap up to 88M next year (24-25). The Wings are currently at 44m with 17 players signed that year.

They have a shit load of cap space and Yzerman isn't going to blow the thing he took a couple years to build up. And by 26-27 as we sit, we've got Larkin and Copp. They have room to make significant additions right now and in the future.

So to answer the questions.,

1) Sure. nobody is saying they've gotta go 8 years on those contracts though.
2) Absolutely. and a lot of it starts with Wallinder or Tuomisto or any of the non-Edvinsson D they have.
3) Perron probably walks and Kubalik either stays at a modest raise (like 4M instead of 2.5M) or goes.
4) Mo is probably already in long term talks and I'd be floored if they didn't bridge Raymond. Rasmussen and Berggren will 100% be bridged or traded.

And I don't think we'll be hardpressed to keep them under 20M next year. Rasmussen and Berggren will probably come to somewhere between 4-5M combined unless one or both go off... in which case it's a good problem to have. Which would leave 15-16M for Raymond and Seider under your scenario. Seider 8x8 (Thomas Chabot-type deal) and then I think they bridge Raymond like they did Vrana or Mantha or Bertuzzi or any other forward of that ilk. 2-3x5.

 

[norrisnick]

The cap is also expected to not just increase but explode up after being steady for years.

So problems for the future to figure out. Got it.

 

[Henkka]

Trade Det 2024 1st + Veleno for Elias Lindholm
Trade 17th overall 2023 + Zadina for DeBrincat
Trade Bos 2024 1st + Al. Johansson for Konecny

DeBrincat - Larkin - Raymond
Söderblom - Lindholm - Konecny
Fabbri - Copp - Perron
Kubalik - Rasmussen - Berggren

Never look back.

Still get RFA Swayman in net and RhD Mayfield for defence.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

So problems for the future to figure out. Got it.

Yes. Problems for the future to figure out. It would be like setting your budget based on a 50,000 salary and all of a sudden you got a promotion to 70,000 salary. All of the corners you felt you had to cut to survive at 50k salary all of a sudden don't matter.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Trade Det 2024 1st + Veleno for Elias Lindholm
Trade 17th overall 2023 + Zadina for DeBrincat
Trade Bos 2024 1st + Al. Johansson for Konecny

DeBrincat - Larkin - Raymond
Söderblom - Lindholm - Konecny
Fabbri - Copp - Perron
Kubalik - Rasmussen - Berggren

Never look back.

Still get RFA Swayman in net and RhD Mayfield for defence.

See this is too much. It doesn't make sense to go all in like this.

Debrincat and Lindholm are the type of pieces you should be budgeting for in your roster. And then, if you have Kasper or Soderblom or Andreasson or whoever go BOOM, you've got some really solid trade pieces in those older players or amazing trade assets in the younger ones.

Like there should be room in your budget for a legitimate top 6C (that the Wings don't have right now) and for a legitimate top line winger. Now adding Cat would lead you to probably try to bridge Raymond rather than extend him, but it would also accomplish two things. Insulate his continued growth so he'll keep developing and avoid hitting a wall as teams couldn't key on him enough... or reduce his play time such that you're not paying through the nose on him too early.

 

[Oddbob]

Tavares wasn't insulation for Nylander. He was the boat anchor that Will was dragging around. And he's just another name tossed into the ether. The point is more not to fixate in the one guy that's obviously on the outs. Reeks of desperation.

Fun fact time! DeBrincat's one foray into the playoffs he was outscored on his own team by Kubalik and Maatta.


Maybe? But at least Elias is a decently sized center. Makes the whole line driving thing more plausible.

Tavares is much better than given credit for, and certainly wasn't being dragged around by Nylander. Nylander is the kind of guy who needs others to get points, not the guy that gets others a lot more points than they would otherwise get. Nylander is pretty overated around here.

 

[norrisnick]

Tavares is much better than given credit for, and certainly wasn't being dragged around by Nylander. Nylander is the kind of guy who needs others to get points, not the guy that gets others a lot more points than they would otherwise get. Nylander is pretty overated around here.

Take that take to the Leafs section and see how it fares.

Yes. Problems for the future to figure out. It would be like setting your budget based on a 50,000 salary and all of a sudden you got a promotion to 70,000 salary. All of the corners you felt you had to cut to survive at 50k salary all of a sudden don't matter.

And then there's an acquisition and your position is deemed superfluous. That's been my spring.

 

[norrisnick]

Trade Det 2024 1st + Veleno for Elias Lindholm
Trade 17th overall 2023 + Zadina for DeBrincat
Trade Bos 2024 1st + Al. Johansson for Konecny

DeBrincat - Larkin - Raymond
Söderblom - Lindholm - Konecny
Fabbri - Copp - Perron
Kubalik - Rasmussen - Berggren

Never look back.

Still get RFA Swayman in net and RhD Mayfield for defence.

Certainly not to Mo and Ray and Ras and Bergie and Kubalik's extensions...

 

[Henkka]

Certainly not to Mo and Ray and Ras and Bergie and Kubalik's extensions...

They are manageable with the cap. Having too many good players is a nice problem to have.

Also a winning team. What a hell is that!

 

[jkutswings]

Certainly not to Mo and Ray and Ras and Bergie and Kubalik's extensions...

Why are you automatically penciling in all those players for extensions, let alone assuming they will deserve significant ones?

Mo I understand.

Raymond and Rasmussen have had ups and downs. Both are very LIKELY to get extended, but neither have already locked up big money.

Berggren and Kubalik may or may not even stick with the team. I've seen very good and very ugly moments from both. Not pushing either out the door by any means, but certainly not EXPECTING them both to remain key pieces, and in the right trade I wouldn't bat an eye about including either.

You seem to be a bit too infatuated with current players.

 

[norrisnick]

Why are you automatically penciling in all those players for extensions, let alone assuming they will deserve significant ones?

Mo I understand.

Raymond and Rasmussen have had ups and downs. Both are very LIKELY to get extended, but neither have already locked up big money.

Berggren and Kubalik may or may not even stick with the team. I've seen very good and very ugly moments from both. Not pushing either out the door by any means, but certainly not EXPECTING them both to remain key pieces, and in the right trade I wouldn't bat an eye about including either.

You seem to be a bit too infatuated with current players.

That's fine. Their replacements will cost just as much money. Probably more since we won't be fortunate to snag them on RFA contracts.

Raymond's agent just points at Caufield's contract. They're the same player just one shoots more than the other. Same production. Ray's younger and actually bigger.

And with Ras I'm not even talking big money. But if you don't think he's getting at least $3M on a bridge? Suter was making $3M+ for us.

Berggren I'm only penciling him in for something around $2M.

Kubalik is easily a $4M+ player on the market. So it's either sign him or pony up for a replacement.

Those 5 players are under contract for $6.67M this season. Next year that won't get you Mo or Ray alone.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I think if we keep all our picks its evidence the rebuild is rebuilding

Not a bad idea just wont be a popular one

 

[norrisnick]

I think if we keep all our picks its evidence the rebuild is rebuilding

Not a bad idea just wont be a popular one

Yzerman said it at the season end presser. He can't conjure up talent. If the pieces he feels this team needs aren't available, all you can do is keep making incremental changes that improve the roster. Going all-in on the "best guy" available now, might keep you from several better pieces available later.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Yzerman said it at the season end presser. He can't conjure up talent. If the pieces he feels this team needs aren't available, all you can do is keep making incremental changes that improve the roster. Going all-in on the "best guy" available now, might keep you from several better pieces available later.

Dont disagree with that premise and I'd think moving all 5 picks would be terrible..

However, that's a far cry from using draft capital to acquire any proven talent and I think sometimes we get caught up in the moving it all vs moving none of it mentality.

 

[norrisnick]

Dont disagree with that premise and I'd think moving all 5 picks would be terrible..

However, that's a far cry from using draft capital to acquire any proven talent and I think sometimes we get caught up in the moving it all vs moving none of it mentality.

From today's presser I get the sense the 2nds are definitely in play. I like the 2nd for Peeke from Columbus idea. Some RD is going to get squeezed out of Columbus, and I'd want in. Guy that can play 20+ with 3 of it on the PK for $2.75M? Yes, please. Maybe another pick for a goalie type situation ala Husso. Trade two of them to fill holes and draft with the 3rd one.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

From today's presser I get the sense the 2nds are definitely in play. I like the 2nd for Peeke from Columbus idea. Some RD is going to get squeezed out of Columbus, and I'd want in. Guy that can play 20+ with 3 of it on the PK for $2.75M? Yes, please. Maybe another pick for a goalie type situation ala Husso. Trade two of them to fill holes and draft with the 3rd one.

Those are not terrible ideas at all.

Gives more time for the young guys to develop and keeps the team still in the hunt for the lottery.

I agree with SY that you cant conjure up talent, but, you cant also shy away from it either when or if the opportunity presents itself. I'm not sure it will this summer but I'd like to think we would be pretty proactive in trying to find out.

 

[norrisnick]

Those are not terrible ideas at all.

Gives more time for the young guys to develop and keeps the team still in the hunt for the lottery.

I agree with SY that you cant conjure up talent, but, you cant also shy away from it either when or if the opportunity presents itself. I'm not sure it will this summer but I'd like to think we would be pretty proactive in trying to find out.

That's the thing, has the opportunity presented itself? DeBrincat is available, but if Steve doesn't think DeBrincat is the type of winger we are missing, then it's a moot point. I'm sure he's asking around to see who or what is less obviously available. I'm reasonably sure there will be a forward in our top 9 this coming season that isn't currently in our organization. We shall see how high up the depth chart he lands someone.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

That's the thing, has the opportunity presented itself? DeBrincat is available, but if Steve doesn't think DeBrincat is the type of winger we are missing, then it's a moot point. I'm sure he's asking around to see who or what is less obviously available. I'm reasonably sure there will be a forward in our top 9 this coming season that isn't currently in our organization. We shall see how high up the depth chart he lands someone.

What do you mean "we're missing"?

That sounds like "THE" missing piece.. he is not.. but he is "A" piece to the puzzle that we dont have and may never.

Again that's just focusing on Debrincat.

If SY chooses not to, okay, no problem.
If we use all our picks on draftees, okay, no problem but I'd suggest that means we're looking at a longer runway then we had hoped

 

[jkutswings]

That's the thing, has the opportunity presented itself? DeBrincat is available, but if Steve doesn't think DeBrincat is the type of winger we are missing, then it's a moot point. I'm sure he's asking around to see who or what is less obviously available. I'm reasonably sure there will be a forward in our top 9 this coming season that isn't currently in our organization. We shall see how high up the depth chart he lands someone.

My point is that Debrincat is one of half a dozen options, and Yzerman should absolutely be burning you the phone lines.

Maybe you pry Lindholm from Calgary. Maybe you somehow manage to strike a deal for Keller or Connor or one of the big names from Toronto. Maybe you take advantage of Vancouver, whether via trade or snagging 11 overall and then flipping that in another deal. But Detroit's relative success at patient drafting doesn't mean you rely exclusively on that avenue of improvement.

During a summer of what seems like a plethora of movement around the league, I want to see evidence that this front office is willing to be bold as they turn over every rock they can to improve.

 

[Detroit Knights]

What do you mean "we're missing"?

That sounds like "THE" missing piece.. he is not.. but he is "A" piece to the puzzle that we dont have and may never.

Again that's just focusing on Debrincat.

If SY chooses not to, okay, no problem.
If we use all our picks on draftees, okay, no problem but I'd suggest that means we're looking at a longer runway then we had hoped

Honestly, I am convinced at this point that if we don't trade for debrincat or bring in a player that loves to score goals and score goals only, then we are another 5-6 years out and I would hate for that to be the case for mo, ray, and especially larkin.

 

[norrisnick]

My point is that Debrincat is one of half a dozen options, and Yzerman should absolutely be burning you the phone lines.

Maybe you pry Lindholm from Calgary. Maybe you somehow manage to strike a deal for Keller or Connor or one of the big names from Toronto. Maybe you take advantage of Vancouver, whether via trade or snagging 11 overall and then flipping that in another deal. But Detroit's relative success at patient drafting doesn't mean you rely exclusively on that avenue of improvement.

During a summer of what seems like a plethora of movement around the league, I want to see evidence that this front office is willing to be bold as they turn over every rock they can to improve.

Until a deal is ratified by the league, there is not going to be peep from our organization.

And I don't disagree on trading to improve. I disagree with DeBrincat being that guy to commit to.