GDT: Trade and Free Agency Thread - 2021/22 PART VI

[Magic Man]

Engvall has completely outplayed Ritchie. It's not even up for debate. How about we evaluate players fairly and not because one guy hits? One guy was in the dog house of Keefe and played himself into his good books. The other was given a huge opportunity and with his play kept getting his role lessened and now out of the lineup. It has nothing to with leadership group. This is the same group that added Bogosian, gave Simmonds a questionable 2 year deal, and paid a first for Foligno. Ritchie can only blame himself for why he is with the Marlies.

I knew going into the Calgary game that there was no one there really to push back. I think it plays a role mentally on you when you get hacked, crosschecked and physically run over all game long, while your team plays non-contact, tries not to engage, has to back down in every scrum because you won't stick up for yourself.

You could add Ritchie to line #4 with Wayne dressed. Then, add someone like Josh Manson at the deadline and that team will never get bullied like they were last game in Calgary.

There is more to the game then hits, intimidation, fights and all the mucky elements. But, it is a part of the game. I do acknowledge that the Leafs have added some gritty players. But, even with all these tough guys coming in the Leafs are still generally not very high for hits or fights. They are near the bottom of the list. The team under this leadership group will never be on the high end of that scale.

Ritchie has a track record, was producing when he was ousted and represents something they don't have much of. So, if Engvall has a couple more points at the time of Ritchie's demotion, I'm not too worried about that.

 

[Magic Man]

Why does this place insist Crouse is a Ritchie clone?

We don't want him because his price is who they envision him to become on a good team (consistent 20 goal power forward) and not what he is today (2nd/3rd liner) i.e way too high.

But to say we don't want him because he's equivalent to Ritchie is a joke. We would be lucky to add an asset like Crouse for the playoff run.

Because of his defensive prowess? So, he can finally replace Engvall on that 4th line then? Because he's statistically worse than Ritchie over their careers and their physical game is pretty similar.

He's a 2nd/3rd liner on Arizona the worst team in the league getting prime minutes. He was a 4th liner before this season on Arizona. Ritchie was middle-6 on Boston.

 

[dubplatepressure]

I knew going into the Calgary game that there was no one there really to push back. I think it plays a role mentally on you when you get hacked, crosschecked and physically run over all game long, while your team plays non-contact, tries not to engage, has to back down in every scrum because you won't stick up for yourself.

I agree. Manson and Ritchie make us tougher. Can they play our system? Who knows. Simmonds can, Ritchie has shown he cannot so far.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Who knows. Simmonds can

Off and on it seems. He shouldn't play every night

 

[ShaneFalco]

We keep talking about toughness but it has to come from AM, JT, WN and MM too. Don't laugh it off when getting man-handled, don't skate away after getting repeatedly cross-checked, show some jam and push-back and get in their face. It will ignite the whole team and the tougher guys will want to step up more.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Off and on it seems. He shouldn't play every night

Yeah I disagree entirely with that.

 

[TMLAM34]

We keep talking about toughness but it has to come from AM, JT, WN and MM too. Don't laugh it off when getting man-handled, don't skate away after getting repeatedly cross-checked, show some jam and push-back and get in their face. It will ignite the whole team and the tougher guys will want to step up more.

Agreed. We’ve seen Rielly and Tavares step up when absolutely needed but Matthews, Marner and Nylander need to show some push back as well, even if they’re not going to drop the gloves. You look at serious cup contending teams like Boston, Colorado, Tampa, Florida, Washington, etc and their best players get nasty if they need to.

 

[stickty111]

I knew going into the Calgary game that there was no one there really to push back. I think it plays a role mentally on you when you get hacked, crosschecked and physically run over all game long, while your team plays non-contact, tries not to engage, has to back down in every scrum because you won't stick up for yourself.

You could add Ritchie to line #4 with Wayne dressed. Then, add someone like Josh Manson at the deadline and that team will never get bullied like they were last game in Calgary.

There is more to the game then hits, intimidation, fights and all the mucky elements. But, it is a part of the game. I do acknowledge that the Leafs have added some gritty players. But, even with all these tough guys coming in the Leafs are still generally not very high for hits or fights. They are near the bottom of the list. The team under this leadership group will never be on the high end of that scale.

Ritchie has a track record, was producing when he was ousted and represents something they don't have much of. So, if Engvall has a couple more points at the time of Ritchie's demotion, I'm not too worried about that.

Leafs pushed back in the Calgary game quite a few times. Did you even watch the game?
Ritchie literally brought down every line he was on. The only time the 4th line looked competent was with Engvall centering. I will say this again. How about we judge players on playing ability, and not how physical they are. Engvall has completely outplayed Ritchie. Thats just a fact. It has nothing to with leadership group. Engvall is better defensively, transition and propped up a line. Ritchie is the opposite.
Why do we want worse players in the lineup? I want players that can play and if they have a physical side? Even better. Ritchie has a physical side and not much else. Engvall doesn't have a physical side but literally is better in every other aspect.
This leadership group has brought in players who are physical, and if those players don't perform, thats on the player.

 

[stickty111]

I agree. Manson and Ritchie make us tougher. Can they play our system? Who knows. Simmonds can, Ritchie has shown he cannot so far.

I'm not a Manson fan but at least the guy can still play somewhat. Ritchie can't.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

Because of his defensive prowess? So, he can finally replace Engvall on that 4th line then? Because he's statistically worse than Ritchie over their careers and their physical game is pretty similar.

He's a 2nd/3rd liner on Arizona the worst team in the league getting prime minutes. He was a 4th liner before this season on Arizona. Ritchie was middle-6 on Boston.

Boston exiled Ritchie. Arizona doesn't want to lose Crouse. But yeah I guess they're the same.

Crouse plays 18 minutes a game with Travis Boyd as his center and has 12 goals. Ritchie would be benched after 1 game in the same circumstance. Can you imagine a Ritchie/Boyd line where Ritchie is at 18 minutes per game? Maybe you should check the data when Ritchie is beside Marner and then use common sense to see how he'd play with Boyd. But yeah I guess they're the same.

This is just a shallow quick view of things to. Crouse > Ritchie the entire hockey world except you will agree.

 

[Griffin76]

What is it going to cost to get Crouse and Lyubushkin? I don't think anything is going to happen around Chychrun for the Leafs.

Lyubushkin has been playing fantastic defense lately as Chychrun's partner in the top 4. Could easily be the rock that Sandin needs for a partner or could be used in a "shutdown pair" with Muzzin.

Crouse has been playing top 6, Second PP and second PK. Hits. Fights when needed. Has great hands in tight. Great wrister. And he is a great skater.

Combined they make less than 3m. Both are in a contract year. RFA and UFA. Lyubushkin should be cheap. Crouse will be more of course. Maybe a deal for buying in bulk.

 

[stickty111]

 

[ChuckWoods]

Renewed interest in Braun. Maybe.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Mikheyev for 2nd (West)

Dermott, 2nd from Trade, 3rd 2023
for
Scott Mayfield

Leafs 2nd
for
Luke Schenn

Bunting - Matthews - Marner
Kerfoot - Tavares - Nylander
Engvall - - - Kampf - - - Kase
Ritchie - Spezza - Simmonds

Rielly - Mayfield
Muzzin - Brodie
Sandin - Schenn

 

[ToneDog]

Mikheyev for 2nd (West)

Dermott, 2nd from Trade, 3rd 2023
for
Scott Mayfield

Leafs 2nd
for
Luke Schenn

Bunting - Matthews - Marner
Kerfoot - Tavares - Nylander
Engvall - - - Kampf - - - Kase
Ritchie - Spezza - Simmonds

Rielly - Mayfield
Muzzin - Brodie
Sandin - Schenn

A 2nd for Schenn seems high. Dermott, Mik and a 3rd for Mayfield seems high as well.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

A 2nd for Schenn seems high. Dermott, Mik and a 3rd for Mayfield seems high as well.

I agree. But it may very well be the difference between a first round exit and a deep run. We need some jam on the back end.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I agree. But it may very well be the difference between a first round exit and a deep run. We need some jam on the back end.

So your solution is to have Holl as our #7 behind two inferior defensemen, making our forward group worse and sacrificing a 2nd and a 3rd to add some jam?

 

[as Pure as Evil]

schenn plus the rights to the russian giant Nikita Tryamkin

a late round pick and a small plus. tryamkin cant be worth as much since he all but abandoned the nucks

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

So your solution is to have Holl as our #7 behind two inferior defensemen, making our forward group worse and sacrificing a 2nd and a 3rd to add some jam?

Less Skilled, I wouldn't say worse.

The Fourth Line wont get much time in the playoffs anyways, and Engvall looked really good on the third line. At least Ritchie and Simmonds in the lineup/on the bench will deter BS. Holl is not better than Mayfield. He is better than Schenn and can rotate in, but Schenn brings an element we are lacking on the back end.

If the playoffs have shown us anything, it isn't always about who the more skilled player is, but how they fit. Ritchie can and will be more effective in the playoffs than Mikheyev if given the opportunity. Schenn and Mayfield would contribute more than Holl & Liljigren despite Schenn being a downgrade.

 

[zeke]

I'm warming up to the idea of one Max Domi.

- 5.3 caphit and impending UFA means contract isn't an issue
- poor reputation should keep his trade price down
- he's at a 20gl/50pt pace with no PP production and only 13mpg on a crappy offensive team
- he has a career 52pt pace and has scored 70+ in a year
- he can play C
- he's a fearless prick
- bloodline history

I think this might be a very good fit.

 

[as Pure as Evil]

the one bonus we have is its going to be a buyers market since so many are out of the race already. just gotta wait for the prices to plunge

 

[as Pure as Evil]

I'm warming up to the idea of one Max Domi.

- 5.3 caphit and impending UFA means contract isn't an issue
- poor reputation should keep his trade price down
- he's at a 20gl/50pt pace with no PP production and only 13mpg on a crappy offensive team
- he has a career 52pt pace and has scored 70+ in a year
- he can play C
- he's a fearless prick
- bloodline history

I think this might be a very good fit.

so it would have to be kerfoot + with no retention going the other way one would think . would you ask for a plus or straight across with some retention?

 

[zeke]

so it would have to be kerfoot + with no retention going the other way one would think . would you ask for a plus or straight across with some retention?

I have to mull this one a bit more tbh.

I don't think the contract is an issue - retention can take care of any issue there.

But I am having second thoughts on whether he actually is a "fearless prick" or whether he's just a plain prick and not all that gritty.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

I'm warming up to the idea of one Max Domi.

- 5.3 caphit and impending UFA means contract isn't an issue
- poor reputation should keep his trade price down
- he's at a 20gl/50pt pace with no PP production and only 13mpg on a crappy offensive team
- he has a career 52pt pace and has scored 70+ in a year
- he can play C
- he's a fearless prick
- bloodline history

I think this might be a very good fit.

Very nice idea. +1 from me

 

[as Pure as Evil]

I have to mull this one a bit more tbh.

I don't think the contract is an issue - retention can take care of any issue there.

But I am having second thoughts on whether he actually is a "fearless prick" or whether he's just a plain prick and not all that gritty.

depends when he was pot shotting for the habs he was just a cheap shot prick that waited till the last few mins of the game.
in columbus it looks like he at least stopped some of the tomfoolery for the most part but his game would be nice to have great even if we could get a crashing and banging 3rd line