ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
- Aug 19, 2002
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Agreed but with the Cap bind Holl is too expensive on the bottom pair.
GDT: Trade and Free Agency Thread - 2021/22 PART II
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zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
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Yes zeke having an opinion means zeke knows all. Especially a crazy opinion like not wanting a 35yr old bottom pair dman on a bad defensive team in the top 4 of one of the better defensive teams in hockey.
Sometimes granular is necessary, but I don't think it's really necessary when we're talking about a guy who was awful by all measures last time he was in a top-4 years ago, and st 35 has been OK at best the past few years as a bottom pair guy on a bad defense.
Especially when those granular numbers consists of him being compared relative to his team that's the 2nd worst xgf team in hockey.
123offtheglass
Registered User
There's not always a large difference between the #4 & #5 or even #6, that matters. I wouldn't worry too much about the age factor, he is what he is right now.
I'm not sure the numbers support him being on a 'bad defense corps for years now', that's debatable. Are you referring to the years in Philadelphia or San Jose too?
ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
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Good post.
Christ I read the other day someone mentioned Lilligren is now 'untouchable'
Good player who was developed well but 'untouchable' is way over the top.
Here we go again. He's playing as a top 4 *now* and getting good defensive results.
He played a matchup role last year (low minutes) and got good defensive results.
I don't use rel numbers. Unless a team as completely equal units being deployed equally they're misleading garbage.
~2.5 xGA with matchup level competition and 40% o-zone starts.
The guy can defend.
The only question is if he would completely crush our transition game, or if that's been more of a team result.
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123offtheglass
Registered User
Completely agree with this. I'm guessing that would be his downfall, to what degree I'm unsure. It can be mitigated though if they use him properly which I think they have a right group to do so. In my opinion it would work out well.
keonsbitterness
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Scion
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- May 25, 2012
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I like the Leafs top 6 on defence, and defensive depth in the minors. If there is a move to be made I think it's a top 6 winger who can shoot to help free up space for Matthews. JT Miller is the guy I would be willing to trade a pretty penny for.
because if one goes down we are f***ed. Can you imagine this defense with out Rielly or Brodie?
123offtheglass
Registered User
Dylan Strome might be an available & affordable forward who'd be more than a rental; provides center depth too & happens to be from Mississauga.
He's 24, on final year @ 3m, qualifying offer would be 3.6m, & his value has probably never been lower. He's struggled, fallen down their depth chart (while they've been bad), & has even been scratched.
He is talented & has proven it, could be Dubas' next reclamation project.
He's 24, on final year @ 3m, qualifying offer would be 3.6m, & his value has probably never been lower. He's struggled, fallen down their depth chart (while they've been bad), & has even been scratched.
He is talented & has proven it, could be Dubas' next reclamation project.
Mirtle Mailbag, Part 1: The Jason Spezza suspension, trade deadline speculation and signing Jack Campbell - The Athletic
Is this rumoured defenceman trade going to happen once everyone is healthy or have things changed?
Here’s the details on the rumour, in case you missed the story.
In light of injuries to Mitch Marner, Rasmus Sandin and Travis Dermott, the “once everyone is healthy” part of this question has been pushed back considerably. Where the Leafs were going to be facing a tight cap crunch with the return of Petr Mrazek and Ilya Mikheyev in the next couple of weeks, now they likely aren’t going to need significant measures until right before the new year.
If and when the Leafs are fully healthy, they’ll be over the cap with anything more than a 20-player roster, barring additional movement. That could mean they need to waive a forward they don’t want to waive, like Nick Ritchie or Pierre Engvall. Or they’ll need to send down a player like Timothy Liljegren, which doesn’t feel particularly wise or warranted, given how well he’s played.
Or they’ll need to make a trade.
The end of December is still a ways away. The Leafs could always have more injuries crop up, which would mean more LTIR and no need to make a deal. But I do think at some point they’re going to want to shed a little payroll to add some flexibility, even if it’s sending someone like Dermott elsewhere for not much in return.
We’ll see if that happens in midseason or if the Leafs find a way to wait closer to the trade deadline to make that happen. But there’ll be a deal at some point.
All I hear is that the Leafs will add a forward at the deadline. Would they not be better served to get a top-four D to solidify defence for playoffs and guard against injury to the top three? If Rielly, Muzzin or Brodie go down no one we have now can fill that hole.
In an ideal world, they would try and address both holes. I’m not sure how realistic that is given their cap situation, but they could try.
We’re a long way from the deadline, but what I think you might see is they add both a forward and a defenceman between now and then. One will be more of a high impact addition; the other will provide further depth.
And I think I disagree a little that the Leafs have “no one” who could step up into the top four. Rasmus Sandin sure looks like he may be able to do that, especially if the injury is to someone on the left side.
The right side is a bit scary right now, though. Justin Holl has not played well, and Liljegren likely isn’t ready for the tougher assignments he would face alongside Rielly or Muzzin.
More than anything, the Leafs badly need Muzzin-Holl to get back to being the pairing they were for them last season. That or Sandin steps up into the top four and surprises.
Failing those two outcomes, the priority is likely going to be adding on D and any forward they add is less of a concern.
Is this rumoured defenceman trade going to happen once everyone is healthy or have things changed?
Here’s the details on the rumour, in case you missed the story.
In light of injuries to Mitch Marner, Rasmus Sandin and Travis Dermott, the “once everyone is healthy” part of this question has been pushed back considerably. Where the Leafs were going to be facing a tight cap crunch with the return of Petr Mrazek and Ilya Mikheyev in the next couple of weeks, now they likely aren’t going to need significant measures until right before the new year.
If and when the Leafs are fully healthy, they’ll be over the cap with anything more than a 20-player roster, barring additional movement. That could mean they need to waive a forward they don’t want to waive, like Nick Ritchie or Pierre Engvall. Or they’ll need to send down a player like Timothy Liljegren, which doesn’t feel particularly wise or warranted, given how well he’s played.
Or they’ll need to make a trade.
The end of December is still a ways away. The Leafs could always have more injuries crop up, which would mean more LTIR and no need to make a deal. But I do think at some point they’re going to want to shed a little payroll to add some flexibility, even if it’s sending someone like Dermott elsewhere for not much in return.
We’ll see if that happens in midseason or if the Leafs find a way to wait closer to the trade deadline to make that happen. But there’ll be a deal at some point.
All I hear is that the Leafs will add a forward at the deadline. Would they not be better served to get a top-four D to solidify defence for playoffs and guard against injury to the top three? If Rielly, Muzzin or Brodie go down no one we have now can fill that hole.
In an ideal world, they would try and address both holes. I’m not sure how realistic that is given their cap situation, but they could try.
We’re a long way from the deadline, but what I think you might see is they add both a forward and a defenceman between now and then. One will be more of a high impact addition; the other will provide further depth.
And I think I disagree a little that the Leafs have “no one” who could step up into the top four. Rasmus Sandin sure looks like he may be able to do that, especially if the injury is to someone on the left side.
The right side is a bit scary right now, though. Justin Holl has not played well, and Liljegren likely isn’t ready for the tougher assignments he would face alongside Rielly or Muzzin.
More than anything, the Leafs badly need Muzzin-Holl to get back to being the pairing they were for them last season. That or Sandin steps up into the top four and surprises.
Failing those two outcomes, the priority is likely going to be adding on D and any forward they add is less of a concern.
I think the d we should target is Mayfield. He can be paired right away with Muzzin, and would be the perfect partner for him. Also if we have to move muzz in the offseason we can resign Mayfield to anchor that pairing and move Sandin or dermott into the top 4 beside him. I also think Miller or Hagel would be the two best options to plug into our top 6.
Guy Boucher
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NHL trade notes and rumors: What we're hearing on Fleury, Kane, Strome, more - ESPN.com
The goalie market is poised to be a busy one
Everyone I've talked to expects the Blue Jackets to part with Joonas Korpisalo. The 27-year-old was once viewed as the heir apparent to Sergei Bobrovsky in Columbus. But Elvis Merzlikins is firmly in the No. 1 spot, and about to begin a five-year, $27 million extension next season. And thanks to Columbus' deep goaltending prospect pool, headlined by 22-year-old Daniil Tarasov, pending unrestricted free agent Korpisalo is prime for a fresh start.
The Dallas Stars, who have four NHL-caliber goaltenders on their roster, are another team on which folks in the leagues have their eye. The expectation is that the Stars will move one of their goalies once Ben Bishop is healthy. Considering they view Jake Oettinger as their goaltender of the future, and Braden Holtby has played well (at a low cap hit), Anton Khudobin could be the goalie on the move.
So what teams need goalies? The Sabres were in the market, but after they traded for Malcolm Subban, it's unclear if they're still looking to add. Toronto likely will look for insurance given Petr Mrazek's poor injury luck to begin the season. Edmonton also would like to add at the position, and Arizona is a team that could be in play -- especially because it has the ability to take on cap money, if it means future assets coming its way (specifically draft picks).
...............
Why teams are tentative on Strome, DeBrusk
There are two players everyone knows are on the trade market, but they haven't been easy deals to consummate: Chicago's Dylan Strome and Boston's Jake DeBrusk.
Let's get to Strome first. The 24-year-old has been available for a while, but Chicago hasn't had much luck in moving him. The Blackhawks don't want to give up Strome for nothing; he's three years removed from scoring 51 points in 58 games. But teams are wary of his $3 million salary, and the fact he's a pending arbitration-eligible restricted free agent. Strome was a healthy scratch to begin the season as he didn't fit into the Blackhawks' current plans. He's drawing into the lineup now but hasn't been able to find much groove, posting only four points in 15 games.
It's a similar situation for 25-year-old DeBrusk, with his eligibility for arbitration a serious holdup for teams. There seems to be plenty of interest in the winger; teams I've heard connected to him this year (and in the past) are the Blues, Flames and Rangers. The Bruins, like the Blackhawks, want to make sure they don't lose a promising young player in an underwhelming trade.
The goalie market is poised to be a busy one
Everyone I've talked to expects the Blue Jackets to part with Joonas Korpisalo. The 27-year-old was once viewed as the heir apparent to Sergei Bobrovsky in Columbus. But Elvis Merzlikins is firmly in the No. 1 spot, and about to begin a five-year, $27 million extension next season. And thanks to Columbus' deep goaltending prospect pool, headlined by 22-year-old Daniil Tarasov, pending unrestricted free agent Korpisalo is prime for a fresh start.
The Dallas Stars, who have four NHL-caliber goaltenders on their roster, are another team on which folks in the leagues have their eye. The expectation is that the Stars will move one of their goalies once Ben Bishop is healthy. Considering they view Jake Oettinger as their goaltender of the future, and Braden Holtby has played well (at a low cap hit), Anton Khudobin could be the goalie on the move.
So what teams need goalies? The Sabres were in the market, but after they traded for Malcolm Subban, it's unclear if they're still looking to add. Toronto likely will look for insurance given Petr Mrazek's poor injury luck to begin the season. Edmonton also would like to add at the position, and Arizona is a team that could be in play -- especially because it has the ability to take on cap money, if it means future assets coming its way (specifically draft picks).
...............
Why teams are tentative on Strome, DeBrusk
There are two players everyone knows are on the trade market, but they haven't been easy deals to consummate: Chicago's Dylan Strome and Boston's Jake DeBrusk.
Let's get to Strome first. The 24-year-old has been available for a while, but Chicago hasn't had much luck in moving him. The Blackhawks don't want to give up Strome for nothing; he's three years removed from scoring 51 points in 58 games. But teams are wary of his $3 million salary, and the fact he's a pending arbitration-eligible restricted free agent. Strome was a healthy scratch to begin the season as he didn't fit into the Blackhawks' current plans. He's drawing into the lineup now but hasn't been able to find much groove, posting only four points in 15 games.
It's a similar situation for 25-year-old DeBrusk, with his eligibility for arbitration a serious holdup for teams. There seems to be plenty of interest in the winger; teams I've heard connected to him this year (and in the past) are the Blues, Flames and Rangers. The Bruins, like the Blackhawks, want to make sure they don't lose a promising young player in an underwhelming trade.
stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
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So umn yeah Holl is a massive problem. It's no coincidence Muzzin has looked better with anyone else. Lilly was fantastic with him. You need to run them for a few games. If it doesn't work, then you think about trades but give it a try.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
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Holl has played over 55 minutes away from Muzzin at 5-on-5 now, and he has yet to give up a goal against.
I think it is a mutual benefit that they are away from each other.
Folignos Helmet
Registered User
- Sep 4, 2020
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I wonder if we could pry Connor Murphy out of Chicago with some retention.
Could be a good short term partner for Muzzin and long term with Sandin.
Could be a good short term partner for Muzzin and long term with Sandin.
stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
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Yup your right. I just looked at the numbers. Both are better away from each other. Seperate them.
Tomorrow's practice lines will be telling.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
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I can understand Keefe not wanting to give Liljegren that responsibility yet, but when you have Dermott-Holl as a bottom pairing, they can handle more 5-on-5 minutes than Rubins-Holl. That cuts down the responsibility from Liljegren a little bit.
I don't expect Muzzin-Holl once Dermott is back. Keep them on the PK I guess, but that is it.
WTFMAN99
Registered User
- Jun 17, 2009
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Hagel not available from Chicago
Mayfield might be, they committed big money to Pulock and Dobson figures to need more playing time and $$ soon.
Maybe Holl+Robertson or a 2nd? They might want Dermott too, not a lot coming at LD for them, they have Pelech and then an old Chara/Greene.
BertCorbeau
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WTFMAN99
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- Jun 17, 2009
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Holl has drowned in his limited experiments with Rielly in the past, utterly drags Muzzin down and can only show positive underlying numbers beside one of the best young ice tilting D in Sandin. The eye test is all you need with this guy and he fails it hard.
Factor in his poor playoffs, past history of regressing with Muzzin out of the lineup, and consistent struggles against fast forechecking teams - IMO no brainer he should be moved over Dermott. For a 2m ticket he should be able to run a 3rd pair.
Though Chicago might be a good team to offer Timmy L the chance. They aren't an offensive juggernaut.
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