Speculation: Trade and Free Agency Talk - 2022-23 Edition - Postseason Success can't be a Myth!

[BagHead]

I would be bumping Hartman down in this scenario and roll Boldy-Rossi-Hartman. I think that would be a pretty awesome line with Hartman helping them break in on face offs and defensive play if needed while being the shooter on the line. I don’t necessarily see Horvat as an upgrade on Hartman but he fills some of the same niches as a shooting center-men but with better face off ability.

I think his point is equally as much that the defense would be:
Spurgeon - Brodin
Addison - Middleton
Goligoski - Merrill/Sustr

And I'm being generous by assuming Addison is developed enough for the kind of role Dumba has, but there's a high chance he isn't, so it's likely we all get to see Goligoski, 2nd Pairing Defender again. This time on his off-hand side, because he was too good last year.

I don't mean to dump on guys for wanting to trade Dumba, or for wanting Horvat, but doing both things at once really does put the team one step forward and one step back.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

I think his point is equally as much that the defense would be:
Spurgeon - Brodin
Addison - Middleton
Goligoski - Merrill/Sustr

And I'm being generous by assuming Addison is developed enough for the kind of role Dumba has, but there's a high chance he isn't, so it's likely we all get to see Goligoski, 2nd Pairing Defender again. This time on his off-hand side, because he was too good last year.

I don't mean to dump on guys for wanting to trade Dumba, or for wanting Horvat, but doing both things at once really does put the team one step forward and one step back.

Addison can be plenty of good on a 2nd pair with Middleton. I don’t think the drop off will be as drastic as it seems.

 

[Wabit]

Addison can be plenty of good on a 2nd pair with Middleton. I don’t think the drop off will be as drastic as it seems.

I'm not sold on Middleton being a 2nd pair d-man. I need to see more of him.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

I'm not sold on Middleton being a 2nd pair d-man. I need to see more of him.

I believe he is adequate, not elite but he is good defensively with offensive upside. Good physical compliment to addison

 

[57special]

Addison can be plenty of good on a 2nd pair with Middleton. I don’t think the drop off will be as drastic as it seems.

Addison was an indifferent defender at the AHL level, and is way less strong than Dumba. 3rd pairing and PP guy- yes. 20-22 minute/night all situations NHL defender? Ehhh....

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Addison was an indifferent defender at the AHL level, and is way less strong than Dumba. 3rd pairing and PP guy- yes. 20-22 minute/night all situations NHL defender? Ehhh....

Dumbas new role isn’t going to be all situation. An addison/Middleton pairing won’t be all situation defense.

 

[57special]

Dumbas new role isn’t going to be all situation. An addison/Middleton pairing won’t be all situation defense.

Any 2nd pairing worthy of the name needs to be playing a lot of 5 v 5, and at least 18-19 minutes per night. Dumba has been playing 22-23 minutes per night for the past 5 years. Addison isn't close to being able to do that.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Any 2nd pairing worthy of the name needs to be playing a lot of 5 v 5, and at least 18-19 minutes per night. Dumba has been playing 22-23 minutes per night for the past 5 years. Addison isn't close to being able to do that.

So you let him grow and learn. He is far better at puck retrieval and passing than dumba is. Nowhere near as physical but plenty worthy.

 

[Obvious Fabertism]

Addison was an indifferent defender at the AHL level, and is way less strong than Dumba. 3rd pairing and PP guy- yes. 20-22 minute/night all situations NHL defender? Ehhh....

For part of the regular season he is likely fine, Faber is on the way before the playoffs hit to better fit the shutdown role. That forward group should be good enough to outscore any defensive gaffes for the most part.

People want Rossi getting premier minutes for offensive development, why doesn’t that logic apply to Addison who by all accounts is a better defender than Dumba was when he entered the league.

 

[TaLoN]

For part of the regular season he is likely fine, Faber is on the way before the playoffs hit to better fit the shutdown role. That forward group should be good enough to outscore any defensive gaffes for the most part.

People want Rossi getting premier minutes for offensive development, why doesn’t that logic apply to Addison who by all accounts is a better defender than Dumba was when he entered the league.

You can shelter a defenseman on the bottom pair as a offensive defenseman and PP specialist easier from the bottom pair than a minute munching top 4 pairing.

At forward, you put players in offensive roles more by playing them in a top 6 role, let the bottom 6 play their defensive grinding game without them.

 

[BagHead]

So you let him grow and learn. He is far better at puck retrieval and passing than dumba is. Nowhere near as physical but plenty worthy.

If this is a year where we're letting guys grow and learn in major roles, why are we trading for Horvat instead of letting Rossi do so? Are you trying to win or trying to develop? Do you see what we mean when we say one step forward and one step back? Either way you're in the same situation, just at a different position on the ice.

With that in mind, today I trust Rossi more to be a middle of the lineup player than I trust Addison to be the same. Individual competency aside, the downside is less with Rossi, since he'd eat fewer minutes than a 2nd paring defenseman even if he succeeds at it. Second pairing defenseman on this team is a 20 minute job, and 18-19 on most teams. For reference, that's bigger than Kaprizov's TOI.

 

[Wabit]

At forward, you put players in offensive roles more by playing them in a top 6 role, let the bottom 6 play their defensive grinding game without them.

You can only shelter players so much 5v5. Give them an o-zone FO but even then it's roughly a 50% chance they'll win the FO. Then they have to either forecheck hard or go back and play in the neutral/d-zone if the FO is lost. Grinding is also something every hockey player has to do. Every player is involved in board battles in every game.

Pitlick and Donato have all the offensive skills in the world, but they are gone because they stunk along the boards and didn't know where the d-zone was on the ice. Fiala was this way too his first season or so in MN.

The days of the Vanek type of o-zone only FWD are about gone. It's the same as how the days of the no-skill token facepuncher every team used to carry are gone.

Centers are also very hard to try and hide. They just have to cover so much of the ice.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

If this is a year where we're letting guys grow and learn in major roles, why are we trading for Horvat instead of letting Rossi do so? Are you trying to win or trying to develop? Do you see what we mean when we say one step forward and one step back? Either way you're in the same situation, just at a different position on the ice.
With that in mind, today I trust Rossi more to be a middle of the lineup player than I trust Addison to be the same. Individual competency aside, the downside is less with Rossi, since he'd eat fewer minutes than a 2nd paring defenseman even if he succeeds at it. Second pairing defenseman on this team is a 20 minute job, and 18-19 on most teams. For reference, that's bigger than Kaprizov's TOI.

I always understood your view point I just disagree with it. You can develope rossi offensively and have horvat without hindering development. We don’t want Addison learning on the top pair, are we gonna force rossi to learn on the first line? Give him Boldy and whomever else until he is showing he needs to be up with Kap then give him the keys to learn it.

 

[BagHead]

I always understood your view point I just disagree with it. You can develope rossi offensively and have horvat without hindering development. We don’t want Addison learning on the top pair, are we gonna force rossi to learn on the first line? Give him Boldy and whomever else until he is showing he needs to be up with Kap then give him the keys to learn it.

It's absolutely fair to not agree with me, I've been wrong a lot of times, I just want to understand why you don't think it's a case of shifting the problem rather than solving it. Do you just think very highly of Addison's defensive game? Maybe you don't trust Rossi at all this year?

To be clear, I don't want Rossi thrown onto the first line, just as I don't want Addison thrown onto the first pairing. Third line and third pairing, respectively, sounds good to me as developmental spots. If they want more, they need to earn it in-season, and that's why I'm in a wait-and-see mode. I want to know who sinks or swims before any triggers get pulled.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

It's absolutely fair to not agree with me, I've been wrong a lot of times, I just want to understand why you don't think it's a case of shifting the problem rather than solving it. Do you just think very highly of Addison's defensive game? Maybe you don't trust Rossi at all this year?

To be clear, I don't want Rossi thrown onto the first line, just as I don't want Addison thrown onto the first pairing. Third line and third pairing, respectively, sounds good to me as developmental spots. If they want more, they need to earn it in-season, and that's why I'm in a wait-and-see mode. I want to know who sinks or swims before any triggers get pulled.

I think higher of Addison than some do with his defensive game yes as he isnt big and thats fine considering 5'11 isnt the end of the world and he has the puck retrieval skills to make up for lack of physicality. I also believe Middleton will more than makeup for whatever physicality Addison lacks. I am fine with him being 2nd pair simply because he has the offensive game for it, he would get the more favored offensive zone starts and his defensive issues are not looking to be turning it over in front of our own net countless times trying to do too much. From what I have seen his weakness is simply being weaker and smaller, not so much out of position or turnover prone in the defensive zone. If he can take after Brodin and just be in good position, get the puck and headman it I will be more than happy slotting him into 2nd pairing duties considering the offense he has already shown he can give us.

I have faith in Rossi, I just dont see how adding another quality C hinders him at all. If he can beat out Horvat then we can do what we all would love to do and turn Ek into that pure shutdown 3C and start building a second scoring line around something like Boldy-Horvat-Jost/Steel/Geadreau/Player X. I value depth at C highly enough that making this move does not change my mind of building for the future. I do not want Horvat as a 1 year rental if that is how you view it, I would like to sign him to a 7x7 or similar contract and have our depth down the middle solidified for years to come. I dont understand how wanting to have 3 quality centers is met with such an issue, especially considering our history of next to no depth down the middle.

 

[Sebastien]

I think higher of Addison than some do with his defensive game yes as he isnt big and thats fine considering 5'11 isnt the end of the world and he has the puck retrieval skills to make up for lack of physicality. I also believe Middleton will more than makeup for whatever physicality Addison lacks. I am fine with him being 2nd pair simply because he has the offensive game for it, he would get the more favored offensive zone starts and his defensive issues are not looking to be turning it over in front of our own net countless times trying to do too much. From what I have seen his weakness is simply being weaker and smaller, not so much out of position or turnover prone in the defensive zone. If he can take after Brodin and just be in good position, get the puck and headman it I will be more than happy slotting him into 2nd pairing duties considering the offense he has already shown he can give us.

I have faith in Rossi, I just dont see how adding another quality C hinders him at all. If he can beat out Horvat then we can do what we all would love to do and turn Ek into that pure shutdown 3C and start building a second scoring line around something like Boldy-Horvat-Jost/Steel/Geadreau/Player X. I value depth at C highly enough that making this move does not change my mind of building for the future. I do not want Horvat as a 1 year rental if that is how you view it, I would like to sign him to a 7x7 or similar contract and have our depth down the middle solidified for years to come. I dont understand how wanting to have 3 quality centers is met with such an issue, especially considering our history of next to no depth down the middle.

Minnesota doesn't have the money go offer him 7 by 7. That means having to trade key players even after not resigning dumba. No thanks

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Minnesota doesn't have the money go offer him 7 by 7. That means having to trade key players even after not resigning dumba. No thanks

Currently sitting at 17m in cap space for next season with 5 fwd, 1 d and 1 goalie to sign. 7m to him leaves you with 10 to resign 4 fwds, 1 d and a goalie. If things goto plan, Wallstedt takes the goalie position at .925k so 9.750m left to sign Boldy, Addison and 3 fwds without a cap increase. Feels very doable.

Boldy bridge deal, 3x4m
Addison 3x2m
Rossi already signed at 860k
Resign Duhaime cheap? Steel maybe?
almost 3m to sign 2 players. what am i missing other then boldy possibly wanting more?

 

[MuckOG]

Currently sitting at 17m in cap space for next season with 5 fwd, 1 d and 1 goalie to sign. 7m to him leaves you with 10 to resign 4 fwds, 1 d and a goalie. If things goto plan, Wallstedt takes the goalie position at .925k so 9.750m left to sign Boldy, Addison and 3 fwds without a cap increase. Feels very doable.

Boldy bridge deal, 3x4m
Addison 3x2m
Rossi already signed at 860k
Resign Duhaime cheap? Steel maybe?
almost 3m to sign 2 players. what am i missing other then boldy possibly wanting more?

You have Wallstedt taking over the starting goalie position NEXT season? My guess is that he would start the season backing up MAF and transition to the starting goalie for the 2024-2025 season.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

You have Wallstedt taking over the starting goalie position NEXT season? My guess is that he would start the season backing up MAF and transition to the starting goalie for the 2024-2025 season.

Where did i say he is starting? I said we have to sign 1 goalie next season, if he does as well as we hope in the AHL i can easily see that promotion to the NHL. In no way shape or form does my comment state he will be the starter, he will just be that 1 goalie signing we need to make for the NHL roster by not signing anyone and instead promoting him.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Currently sitting at 17m in cap space for next season with 5 fwd, 1 d and 1 goalie to sign. 7m to him leaves you with 10 to resign 4 fwds, 1 d and a goalie. If things goto plan, Wallstedt takes the goalie position at .925k so 9.750m left to sign Boldy, Addison and 3 fwds without a cap increase. Feels very doable.

Boldy bridge deal, 3x4m
Addison 3x2m
Rossi already signed at 860k
Resign Duhaime cheap? Steel maybe?
almost 3m to sign 2 players. what am i missing other then boldy possibly wanting more?

Had time to do the math:

Kap - Horvat - Zucc
Boldy -Rossi - Hartman
Greenway - Ek - Foligno
Dewar - x - x
x

Brodin - Spurgeon
Middleton - Addison
Goligoski - Merril
x

MAF
Wallstedt

leaves us with 1,396,412 after the dead cap. Looks like Greenway or Foligno would need to be on their way out unless Zucc is going in their place. Maybe 2m for Addison is a bit high and we sign him for a lower cap hit allowing us to get cheaper ELC/Vet mins. to fill the 4 remaining spots. Hardly impossible.

 

[57special]

For part of the regular season he is likely fine, Faber is on the way before the playoffs hit to better fit the shutdown role. That forward group should be good enough to outscore any defensive gaffes for the most part.

People want Rossi getting premier minutes for offensive development, why doesn’t that logic apply to Addison who by all accounts is a better defender than Dumba was when he entered the league.

I don’t agree that Addison is a better defender than Dumba at the same age. Dumba was stronger, making him more effective in puck battles, and longer, allowing him to cover more ice . Addison is a good skater, but Dumba was faster. Also, Addison might be listed as 5'11" but I'd be surprised if he's even 5'10".

My opinion of the season is that we will be a good, competitive, team, but will have no chance to beat CO in the playoffs. An upset of them would be by a very good team with great goaltending that gets lucky. We might be very good, and we might get lucky, but I don't see us having great goaltending.

 

[Sebastien]

Had time to do the math:

Kap - Horvat - Zucc
Boldy -Rossi - Hartman
Greenway - Ek - Foligno
Dewar - x - x
x

Brodin - Spurgeon
Middleton - Addison
Goligoski - Merril
x

MAF
Wallstedt

leaves us with 1,396,412 after the dead cap. Looks like Greenway or Foligno would need to be on their way out unless Zucc is going in their place. Maybe 2m for Addison is a bit high and we sign him for a lower cap hit allowing us to get cheaper ELC/Vet mins. to fill the 4 remaining spots. Hardly impossible.

Respectfully not losing foligno for a player in horvat who isn't a true 1c. I get it we are desperate, but Hartman there isn't bad. I am sure there will be other C's in free agency. Horvat only thing he's somewhat good at is scoring. He sucks defensively.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Respectfully not losing foligno for a player in horvat who isn't a true 1c. I get it we are desperate, but Hartman there isn't bad. I am sure there will be other C's in free agency. Horvat only thing he's somewhat good at is scoring. He sucks defensively.

somewhat good at scoring, wins 57% of draws which idk could help our pp quite a bit eh? Hartman is being propped up by Kap just like Zucc is. We have Ek, we dont need to bring in Horvat to play defense.

 

[Obvious Fabertism]

I don’t agree that Addison is a better defender than Dumba at the same age. Dumba was stronger, making him more effective in puck battles, and longer, allowing him to cover more ice . Addison is a good skater, but Dumba was faster. Also, Addison might be listed as 5'11" but I'd be surprised if he's even 5'10".

I didn’t say same age, Dumba had more games in his D+1 than Addison has had in his career this far. Dumba obviously has better physical tools, but he was a turnover machine for his first 3 seasons, Addison is a lot further along in that respect.

My main line of thinking though is that Faber will likely be here as soon as the Gophers are done, he would be the heir apparent to a defensive role on the right side, for part of a regular season we could break Addison in and give him a ton of development time, then enter the playoffs with him feeling comfortable. If Addison proves to be completely ineffective, we still have tons of cap to address that this season, though it would cost us, but you eventually have to gamble on our prospects.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Currently sitting at 17m in cap space for next season with 5 fwd, 1 d and 1 goalie to sign. 7m to him leaves you with 10 to resign 4 fwds, 1 d and a goalie. If things goto plan, Wallstedt takes the goalie position at .925k so 9.750m left to sign Boldy, Addison and 3 fwds without a cap increase. Feels very doable.

Boldy bridge deal, 3x4m
Addison 3x2m
Rossi already signed at 860k
Resign Duhaime cheap? Steel maybe?
almost 3m to sign 2 players. what am i missing other then boldy possibly wanting more?

If Boldy breaks out this year, he won't take less than 7 million