Toronto OHL team

[From Up Top]

I brought up York Region earlier - albeit I was pointing the arrow a little more north. It's definitely an intriguing market and one of the quickest growing population bases in all of Canada so it would only be logical for the OHL to conduct the due dilligence to see if there's viability there in the event of a relocation.

That said, the biggest issue with York Region is where do you build an arena where it could be marketed - and more importantly, embraced - as a regional team. If Vaughan decides to build a rink, are people from Markham really going to go to games? I don't know the answer to that, but I think it's murky at best.

Richmond Hill seems logical as the centre-point and perhaps there you could build something around the 404 where you may attract fans from Aurora and Newmarket as well to supplement a fan-base. Of course you'll also have a lot of issues with the civic council's bickering about how much support the region might be willing to give and why that's being deferred from another community, but it's definitely an interesting scenario to ponder.

I could see either Richmond Hill or Vaughan working for York Region if the team followed what the Niagara Ice Dogs did and market it as the regions team. I know the OHL didn't due well during the brief visit of the Newmarket Royals, but times have change in the area.

We be a good rivalry with the Barrie Colts and Mississauga Steelheads.

 

[knowescape]

Richmond Hill seems logical as the centre-point and perhaps there you could build something around the 404 where you may attract fans from Aurora and Newmarket as well to supplement a fan-base. Of course you'll also have a lot of issues...

I think anywhere in the range of 400/407/404 is going to serve the needs of most...land availability might push it north but then it may also provide "parking" and the ability to anchor additional development and growth around the arena project. The city that takes that on, gets to reap the benefits.

As for the proprietary issues of one municipality versus another, avoid naming the team after any individual city by putting the York banner on the team (yes, I am using Niagara as an example here).

 

[ckg927]

I can't remember who said it, but it holds true. "Toronto is not a hockey city, Toronto is a Leafs city."

Agreed. Anyone remember the Toronto Roadrunners(the FIRST time the AHL tried putting a team here)? The first version of the Toronto Marlboros, which ran for many decades in the OHL? The WHA's Toros? The St. Mike's Majors(the SECOND OHL team, if you're keeping score)?

The only reason the Marlies(version 2.0)are still around is that the Leafs own that team.

And we can't forget the OHL's Battalion(now decamped to North Bay)and Steelheads(which STILL can't draw flies in Mississauga).

The Blue Jays are about the only team that can challenge the Leafs for fan dominance, and that's when they're doing well(which is the case now).

 

[PrioritySelection]

Agreed. Anyone remember the Toronto Roadrunners(the FIRST time the AHL tried putting a team here)? The first version of the Toronto Marlboros, which ran for many decades in the OHL? The WHA's Toros? The St. Mike's Majors(the SECOND OHL team, if you're keeping score)?

The only reason the Marlies(version 2.0)are still around is that the Leafs own that team.

And we can't forget the OHL's Battalion(now decamped to North Bay)and Steelheads(which STILL can't draw flies in Mississauga).

The Blue Jays are about the only team that can challenge the Leafs for fan dominance, and that's when they're doing well(which is the case now).

Just to play devil's advocate here..

I think it's commonly accepted that putting OHL teams in rinks less than 10 minutes apart (Mississauga and Brampton) was really the major issue. Had there only been one team there from the start, I think the OHL may have a lot more traction in that market than it does today. That said, Mississauga is slowly starting to penetrate the market and become a viable brand for family entertainment.

Some other facts to consider:

1) Toronto FC averaged 23,451 fans in the 2015 season which was good for fourth overall in MLS. This is for a team that hadn't made the playoffs in eight seasons going into last year.

2) The Raptors are fourth in NBA average attendance at 19,826 fans a game which is a sellout capacity. Obviously they are benefitting from a great team but this has really become a tough ticket to get in recent years. It's a far cry from the early days when they basically had to pawn tickets off as part of Maple Leafs' season tickets

3) The most recent data I can find is from 2014 but the Toronto Rock were fourth in league attendance and it should be noted that they are not owned by MLSE.

4) The only team that's lost traction in recent years is the Argos, and there's some other considerations there. Toronto seems to feel like we're largely too good for the CFL and deserve an NFL team; and of course it doesn't help that the team was previously playing in a football cavern known as the Rogers Centre. The move to BMO Field should help the team re-affirm itself on the map and I would expect they average 20,000+ with a decent year, which would be a considerable percentage boost from where they were in 2015.

All that being said, I think MLSE ownership would be essential to any OHL team operating out of Ricoh. There would be very viable concern about how an OHL and AHL team could exist in the same facility as well, but I wouldn't write this off as a foregone conclusion.

As I posted earlier in the thread, I don't think we're close at all to seeing anything like this happening (10+ years) but it would be remiss to say we'll never see another Toronto-based OHL team in our lifetimes as statement of fact.

 

[Ballroomblitz]

Toronto has plenty of Pro options competing for the entertainment dollar, add to it travelling a distance of 10 Km on an off night will take a fan 45 minutes to an hour to drive. Battling traffic for Jr. hockey just isn't going to work in Toronto, same as most Jr. leagues in many sports.

The biggest challenge is travel time for fans, and that unfortunately is getting longer year upon year.

 

[jason2020]

PrioritySelection

Your not going to have both a Ahl and Ohl team play out of downtown Toronto at some point Mlse might look and moving the Marlies and buying a Ohl team.

 

[jason2020]

Toronto has plenty of Pro options competing for the entertainment dollar, add to it travelling a distance of 10 Km on an off night will take a fan 45 minutes to an hour to drive. Battling traffic for Jr. hockey just isn't going to work in Toronto, same as most Jr. leagues in many sports.

The biggest challenge is travel time for fans, and that unfortunately is getting longer year upon year.

Thing is pro sports in Toronto have had the same issue lets not forget the jays have had 10,000 at games in the past Toronto Fc had big attendance issues as well in the past.

 

[PrioritySelection]

Thing is pro sports in Toronto have had the same issue lets not forget the jays have had 10,000 at games in the past Toronto Fc had big attendance issues as well in the past.

We're shifting in a different direction here, but Toronto FC really hasn't had any attendance issues in the past. Their two worst seasons (2012 and 2013) were still well above the league median and would also eclipse the league average if it weren't for Seattle's 44,000+ being a league outlier. Factoring in the absolute pittance of quality this team showed up until last year, that ain't too shabby.

The Blue Jays are a different story, but they were also one of the poorest run franchises in all of professional sports for the better part of 15+ years, so it's really not a surprise there, either. They've definitely rebounded quite well from the darkest days in the mid 00's, though. Looking around the rest of the MLB it's not like the Blue Jays are an outlier when it comes to a positive correlation between team success and attendance, either. There's very few franchises in the league that are able to survive a sustained run of losing while maintaining previous capacity consistencies.

One important consideration we need to make as well is that a 'Toronto' OHL team is not going to be in Toronto to be marketed to the entire city. If a team was ever put at Ricoh - and it's obviously a long-shot hypothetical - you're really going to be marketing said team to the Libery Village, the West End, Mimico, and the East part of Etobicoke. Ditto if for some reason a new facility was ever to be developed in another area (eg. Scarborough, North York, etc.)

It's still very much a long way off, but the argument I would make is that I think it would be unwise for us to sit here and say we'll never see an OHL team in Toronto proper ever again. A long shot - certainly - but not a foregone conclusion, in my opinion.

 

[road warrior]

I brought up York Region earlier - albeit I was pointing the arrow a little more north. It's definitely an intriguing market and one of the quickest growing population bases in all of Canada so it would only be logical for the OHL to conduct the due dilligence to see if there's viability there in the event of a relocation.

That said, the biggest issue with York Region is where do you build an arena where it could be marketed - and more importantly, embraced - as a regional team. If Vaughan decides to build a rink, are people from Markham really going to go to games? I don't know the answer to that, but I think it's murky at best.

Richmond Hill seems logical as the centre-point and perhaps there you could build something around the 404 where you may attract fans from Aurora and Newmarket as well to supplement a fan-base. Of course you'll also have a lot of issues with the civic council's bickering about how much support the region might be willing to give and why that's being deferred from another community, but it's definitely an interesting scenario to ponder.

I think anywhere in the range of 400/407/404 is going to serve the needs of most...land availability might push it north but then it may also provide "parking" and the ability to anchor additional development and growth around the arena project. The city that takes that on, gets to reap the benefits.

As for the proprietary issues of one municipality versus another, avoid naming the team after any individual city by putting the York banner on the team (yes, I am using Niagara as an example here).

Any one of Markham (302,000 – 2011) , Richmond Hill (185,000-2011), Vaughn (288,000-2011), separately, have the population base to support an OHL team on their own. But they each have demographics issues re support for hockey.

A regional team designed to draw from Markham, Richmond Hill & Vaughn sounds good in theory. But they’re all supper congested and car is the only realistic way to get around. They’re all beside each other east to west and the only east west road with any flow in that region is the 407 – which if fricking expensive – so you’re adding on average say $8-$10 407 toll cost onto every game you want to attend.

And I personally don’t think there’s any regional identity in York Region, each citizen identifies themselves with their own city. Even the name York is difficult to make work – people think of York as the original name of Toronto, or as North York – Mel Lastman’s old stomping grounds, (part of Toronto today), York University is today inside the boundaries of Toronto too.

York Region, regional identity is non-existent, except for the police force. So if you named the team the York Regional Coppers or the York Pigs, it might work as a regional identity name (for an old timers / charity team).
Maybe I’m overlooking the obvious – the York Region 407’s (also known as the highway robbery).
Otherwise the Team will have to create that regional identity itself.

The biggest issue is an arena. 1 city council will have to pay for it. After watching St. Mike’s and Brampton fail and Mississauga not getting any traction with fans after 20 years – the OHL in the GTA has been a failed experiment. Why would any GTA city council decide to invest in an OHL class arena now?

Could it and should it happen one day – yes – but I can’t see it happening anytime soon.

PS each city has it's own city council. York Region council only does big region wide infrastructure and police.
You could try arguing that an OHL arena is a regional project - but when all the benefits would go to the city were it's build - said arena will not be paid for by the regional council.

 

[bobber]

You also he to look at demographics. How many hockey fans are there in the area that would really care about junior hockey. There are a lot that like the Leaf brand in Toronto and also the Marlies but junior is not considered as much. Brampton could not get fans out.

 

[jason2020]

We're shifting in a different direction here, but Toronto FC really hasn't had any attendance issues in the past. Their two worst seasons (2012 and 2013) were still well above the league median and would also eclipse the league average if it weren't for Seattle's 44,000+ being a league outlier. Factoring in the absolute pittance of quality this team showed up until last year, that ain't too shabby.

The Blue Jays are a different story, but they were also one of the poorest run franchises in all of professional sports for the better part of 15+ years, so it's really not a surprise there, either. They've definitely rebounded quite well from the darkest days in the mid 00's, though. Looking around the rest of the MLB it's not like the Blue Jays are an outlier when it comes to a positive correlation between team success and attendance, either. There's very few franchises in the league that are able to survive a sustained run of losing while maintaining previous capacity consistencies.

One important consideration we need to make as well is that a 'Toronto' OHL team is not going to be in Toronto to be marketed to the entire city. If a team was ever put at Ricoh - and it's obviously a long-shot hypothetical - you're really going to be marketing said team to the Libery Village, the West End, Mimico, and the East part of Etobicoke. Ditto if for some reason a new facility was ever to be developed in another area (eg. Scarborough, North York, etc.)

It's still very much a long way off, but the argument I would make is that I think it would be unwise for us to sit here and say we'll never see an OHL team in Toronto proper ever again. A long shot - certainly - but not a foregone conclusion, in my opinion.

Toronto Fc did have attendance issues there was even talk about would the team last long term now things seem to be fine now but don't assume that will be case for ever as for the Jays I don't think they will be in Toronto in the next 10 years.

 

[PrioritySelection]

Any one of Markham (302,000 – 2011) , Richmond Hill (185,000-2011), Vaughn (288,000-2011), separately, have the population base to support an OHL team on their own. But they each have demographics issues re support for hockey.

A regional team designed to draw from Markham, Richmond Hill & Vaughn sounds good in theory. But they’re all supper congested and car is the only realistic way to get around. They’re all beside each other east to west and the only east west road with any flow in that region is the 407 – which if fricking expensive – so you’re adding on average say $8-$10 407 toll cost onto every game you want to attend.

And I personally don’t think there’s any regional identity in York Region, each citizen identifies themselves with their own city. Even the name York is difficult to make work – people think of York as the original name of Toronto, or as North York – Mel Lastman’s old stomping grounds, (part of Toronto today), York University is today inside the boundaries of Toronto too.

York Region, regional identity is non-existent, except for the police force. So if you named the team the York Regional Coppers or the York Pigs, it might work as a regional identity name (for an old timers / charity team).
Maybe I’m overlooking the obvious – the York Region 407’s (also known as the highway robbery).
Otherwise the Team will have to create that regional identity itself.

The biggest issue is an arena. 1 city council will have to pay for it. After watching St. Mike’s and Brampton fail and Mississauga not getting any traction with fans after 20 years – the OHL in the GTA has been a failed experiment. Why would any GTA city council decide to invest in an OHL class arena now?

Could it and should it happen one day – yes – but I can’t see it happening anytime soon.

PS each city has it's own city council. York Region council only does big region wide infrastructure and police.
You could try arguing that an OHL arena is a regional project - but when all the benefits would go to the city were it's build - said arena will not be paid for by the regional council.

Regarding York Region, I was more-so referencing the fact that any prospective arena project would likely receive funds and grants from all levels of government. So with that in mind, I'm sure some of the region's municipal governments wouldn't be overly happy with X amount of funds being potentially diverted or funneled into another municipality for a sports and entertainment facility. I'm not sure on the semantics, but I would imagine there would be some heavy inter-government lobbying from the region for any such project that might create that feeling of contempt. Perhaps not.

Either way, I agree. I don't think having a regional team for York Region would be all that fruitful. You'd probably have to put it in either Vaughan, Markham, or Newmarket and hope to hell the team resonates not only within that city, but also the immediate proximity around it.

Given the talk about a potential facility in Markham - although it seems like that ship has long sailed for now - that would probably be the most logical place for an attempt. I haven't heard of anything coming out of Vaughan or Richmond Hill and Newmarket is fresh off pouring money into the Magna Centre, so I doubt there would be much appetite there. It's too bad, because from a logistical standpoint it would be a great place to have a franchise in a large population base that's fairly central to the league's geographic footprint.

Toronto Fc did have attendance issues there was even talk about would the team last long term now things seem to be fine now but don't assume that will be case for ever as for the Jays I don't think they will be in Toronto in the next 10 years.

I think you might have an adverse opinion of the Toronto sports market. TFC has only been lower than fourth in MLS attendance twice since 2007 - their inaugural season. Those two seasons were in 2012 and 2013 where they finished 10th in attendance each season. During those two seasons, TFC had still never made the playoffs - which is essentially impressive in a parity-filled league like MLS - and finished second last in the table 2012, followed by third last in 2013.

To be above the league median despite a criminally awful product is far from bad. Compared to almost every other franchise in MLS, Toronto FC is one of the league's biggest bright spots. Now if you want to talk about what they do on TV ratings, that's another story.

As for the Blue Jays, there's a 0% chance they're moved as long as Rogers owns them. Forget about what they bring into the gate, the concessions associated with their value for TV, streaming, and digital content is an incredibly lucrative property for Sportsnet.

 

[three dog night]

jays drew almost 2.8 million people last season maybe 3 million this year they are going nowhere TFC also gets good fan support. Has for the OHL in Toronto i still do not know if that will work the Steal Heads average was just over 3,000 fans maybe they can market the team more to Toronto fans.

 

[road warrior]

The arena proposal in Markham was for an 20,000 seat NHL quality rink on a piece of land in the new downtown Markham is creating near the 407/404. The scheme was backed by the developer who owned the land, and the mayor as a vanity/legacy project. He wanted the city council to vote for it without knowing what was in the agreement.

It was supposed to be a 50% city funded / 50% private funded deal, $325 million was the advertised price – (later a consultant said it was actually $416 million for the arena + another $42 mil in infrastructure costs to the city outside of the main deal). The big BUT to the deal was the city would have borrowed 100% of the money for the arena and the developer would have paid the city back for it’s half over 20-25? years – and the city’s half was supposed to be paid for by developers – through a development fee and by payments from developers on a “voluntary” basis. The city would have been on the hook for 100% of the deal if it went bankrupt – which it would have without an NHL team.

So any new arena project would have to pass some hard scrutiny before getting the go ahead from city council after those shenanigans.

Let’s say Markham eventually decides they do want an arena in their new downtown and want to build a John Labatt Center style 10,000 seat arena. They’ll need a team to play there and barring the Marlies moving from Ricoh (only possible if MLSE has control of the arena and they get a sweet heart deal they can’t say no too) they’ll need a OHL team.

The NHL arena deal was a build it and they will come kind of deal – didn’t work for Hamilton and hasn’t worked for Quebec City yet either.
An OHL team marketed to just Markham would be very risky IMO because Markham is about 35% Chinese and 15% Indian and neither group is interested in hockey.

But it could still work in that spot, with easy highway access to Newmarket/Aurora to the north, Toronto north of 401/404 to the south and Richmond Hill to the west. And there are enough OHL teams doing poorly at the gate that a build it and they will come prospect is really possible in the O.
But I think Markham city council will still shy away from any deal that doesn’t have a team locked up first.

And the cost of the land may be prohibitive. The NHL arena deal involved the developer, who owned the land, donating it for the arena – in exchange for the city putting up the money (and his company building the arena of course) - and he owned the rest of the parcel of land around the arena, which would have shot up in value beside an NHL arena. Doubt he’d donate the land for an OHL arena.

 

[bobber]

Remember the baseball movie" if you build it they will come" ? Ask Brampton how that worked out for them.

 

[PrioritySelection]

Remember the baseball movie" if you build it they will come" ? Ask Brampton how that worked out for them.

The lesson there is that you probably don't want to be placing expansion franchises in markets with diverse demographics ...less than seven kilometres apart from each other.

Even if Brampton was a hockey market - which has been proven it's not, at least at this calibre - I think you'd be hard pressed to find a team in the league that could peacefully co-exist with a neighbour that's 10 minutes away.

 

[knowescape]

The lesson there is that you probably don't want to be placing expansion franchises in markets with diverse demographics ...less than seven kilometres apart from each other.

Even if Brampton was a hockey market - which has been proven it's not, at least at this calibre - I think you'd be hard pressed to find a team in the league that could peacefully co-exist with a neighbour that's 10 minutes away.

And the Mississauga franchise has steadily improved since the Battalions went north.

 

[TcNorth]

I've never seen so many post about a city most here say will not get an OHL team.

 

[knowescape]

I've never seen so many post about a city most here say will not get an OHL team.

I recall the same thing being said about Niagara and Hamilton as well. For what its worth I still think York is a better market.