Toronto has scored 11PPGs since Marner injury

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I've including mitch's last game (Dec 1) as part of November:

October PP: 9.18xgf/60 (#3), 6.82sh% (#30), 5.21gf/60 (#23)
November PP: 10.36xgf/60 (#1), 17.14sh% (#6), 11.58gf/60 (#2)
December PP: 10.31xgf/60 (#3), 34.19sh% (#1), 26.02gf/60 (#1)

So the PP struggled/was unlucky to start the year but fixed itself pretty quickly and was elite by every measure for a full month before Mitch's injury.

As for what has happened since his injury - well, you can see that massive shooting percentage bump which is obviously unsustainable.

That being said - there’s a real argument to be made that the PP has earned a higher shooting percentage (in particular lots of wide-open bang-ins at the crease) so there’s still a real argument that the PP has legit been better even if that shooting percentage can't stay that high for long.
 
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I wouldn't read anything into results from a 6 game sample size. Having said that, I see no problem with putting Marner on PP2 and see how it goes. Tell him to look at it as a challenge - can you make PP2 as good or better than PP1? If PP1 keeps on ticking without him then that's cool, putting Marner on PP2 can only help that unit produce.
 
I do not believe it is a coincidence. Marner makes our pp very stale & predictable. I dont need stats to tell me what I can plainly see with my own eyes, but the stats clearly reinforce it.

But if it cools, put him back on. We dont have to be so rigid.
 
I've including mitch's last game (Dec 1) as part of November:

October PP: 9.18xgf/60 (#3), 6.82sh% (#30), 5.21gf/60 (#23)
November PP: 10.36xgf/60 (#1), 17.14sh% (#6), 11.58gf/60 (#2)
December PP: 10.31xgf/60 (#3), 34.19sh% (#1), 26.02gf/60 (#1)

So the PP struggled/was unlucky to start the year but fixed itself pretty quickly and was elite by every measure for a full month before Mitch's injury.

As for what has happened since his injury - well, you can see that massive shooting percentage bump which is obviously unsustainable.

That being said - there’s a real argument to be made that the PP has earned a higher shooting percentage (in particular lots of wide-open bang-ins at the crease) so there’s still a real argument that the PP has legit been better even if that shooting percentage can't stay that high for long.
That isnt necessarily true. The sample size hardly speaks to PK juggernaughts and is simply inconclusive.
Wild-2PPG 13th pk
Jets-2ppg 31st pk
BJ-2ppg 17th pk
TBL-2ppg 21st pk
BH-2ppg 22nd pk
Oilers-1ppg 10th pk
 
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How much of this is due to Matthews wrist looking like it's finally healed and guys burying chances ? Marner looks great on the PP, obviously doesn't have a shot so everyone expects pass like the old Kaberle days, but he makes nifty plays to gain the zone, keep pucks alive and create chances. This PP is better with him on it. Marner was not the issue on the PP. If people remember earlier on in the season, Rielly was atrocious at the blue line on the PP. Missing passes and loads of turnovers, he looks sharp now. Matthews looks like he's finally fully healthy as well, those 2 guys getting back on track is the reason for recent PP success, not Marner being out.
 
Been saying it all season Spezza > Marner on first PP unit

Marner = Vision, playmaking
Spezza = Vision, playmaking AND shot

We miss Marners defensive and 5v5 play though

Yeah I don't understand why some insist a guy who hasn't scored on the PP in close to a 100 games, absolutely has to be on the #1 unit. A unit that has been mostly sub-par and predictable
 
The effectiveness - or lack thereof - of the opposing PK units in question should be taken into account as well. The team can possibly start Marner on PP2 if the top unit is still rolling and Marner requires time to get back up to game speed. That's not going to be a long term option though. One of the team's top players has to be put in position to help the team succeed.
 
I've including mitch's last game (Dec 1) as part of November:

October PP: 9.18xgf/60 (#3), 6.82sh% (#30), 5.21gf/60 (#23)
November PP: 10.36xgf/60 (#1), 17.14sh% (#6), 11.58gf/60 (#2)
December PP: 10.31xgf/60 (#3), 34.19sh% (#1), 26.02gf/60 (#1)

So the PP struggled/was unlucky to start the year but fixed itself pretty quickly and was elite by every measure for a full month before Mitch's injury.

As for what has happened since his injury - well, you can see that massive shooting percentage bump which is obviously unsustainable.

That being said - there’s a real argument to be made that the PP has earned a higher shooting percentage (in particular lots of wide-open bang-ins at the crease) so there’s still a real argument that the PP has legit been better even if that shooting percentage can't stay that high for long.

Thats it really. The PP was already one of the best in the league for a while and getting and good amount of bounces has actually just made up for not getting them earlier in the year. Cant really expect rebounds to pop onto our guys sticks or goalies giving up softies forever though but it's great to see this all looks sustainable whoever is out there.

All of this success may have more to do with the dismissal of Malholtra than anything else though, which we were all calling for for half a year.
 
Since Marner's injury, the leafs are 1st in shot attempts/60, scoring chances/60 and 4th in high danger scoring chances/60. That's in about 24 minutes of 5v4 PP time.

From November 1st to December 1st, the leafs were 1st in shot attempts/60, 2nd in scoring chances/60 and 1st in high danger scoring chances/60. That's in 70 minutes of 5v4 PP time.

I see no real change in how they're performing. Of course this is somewhat superficial. But significantly more thorough look than goals over the past 6 games.
 
Marner is one of the best PP players in the league since he entered it.

You're incorrectly attributing a PP hot streak caused by converting at a wildly unsustainable rate to a lack of Marner, when there's really nothing to support that.
Even if it is just a hot streak he should move to PP 2 when he comes back if it is still hot.
Don’t mess with what’s working.
In that scenario he could be used to really bost PP 2.
 
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I don't know the exact number, but the PP was humming before Marner went down as well. It's not like there was zero success and then Mitch goes down and we instantly become unstoppable. As some posters have mentioned, the pace we are operating at in his absence is flat out unsustainable. It is a statistical outlier. If we really want to look into the recent success, we need to look at how we are scoring those goals.

Gm1: Minny - 2 PPGs
Spezza
- Unbelievable fake shot, 1 touch pass from Matthews to Spezza in the bumper and great finish. Likely a shot Mitch can make in the Bumper, but definitely a shot that Spezza has a better chance at finishing
Matthews - Set play off a won draw, Spezza throws a beautiful dish to Matthews back door, a pass that Marner can make in his sleep. Good read by Spezz, but this is a set play, he is looking for Matthews the entire time.

Gm2: Winnipeg - 2 PPGs

Bunting - Goal scored by PP2
Matthews - 5 on 3 to Matty who rips it

Gm3: Columbus - 2 PPGs
Nylander
- cross seam dish Matthews to Nylander, and finish. Both players are playing in their normal PP spot, Marner would not have factored into the play. Also came 12 seconds into the PP off a won draw. Maybe not as much of a set play, but pretty bang bang.
JT- Tip from Rielly shot off of a won draw yet again

Gm4: Tampa - 2 PPGs
Kase
- Broken play at front of the net, Kase makes a skilled play to put it over Vasy's right shoulder in tight. This is a greasy goal that may not materialize with Marner on the ice. The reason the puck fell to Kase in the first place was because his one touch pass to JT in the bumper got burped back to him. Bit of a fortunate bounce.
Nylander- Broken play off of a neutral zone draw, and complete melt down from TB in final 12 seconds of the Period

Gm5: Chicago - 2 PPGs
JT
- Terrible shot from the wall, little to no traffic, and it somehow goes in. Again off of a won faceoff. Not sure how Marner would have prevented this from occuring
Matthews - Puck gets worked down low, kase attempts to go cross crease to JT back door, Lankanin deflects to Matthews in the bumper and he has an open net. Similar to TB Kase goal, this one almost went in as a result of Kase's failed pass, and the boys were getting in tight to score a greasy goal. Complete playoff goal. Bit lucky, but also a lot of making your own luck by being in the right spots.

Gm6: Edmonton - 1 PPG
Matthews- Puck is thrown towards the goal off yet another won draw, JT and Kase crash the front of the net and will it over to Matty back door who is like a f***ing shark in bloodied water.

the takeaways I grab from all of these goals, is that they are not perfection. They are working the puck down low way more than last year, and it is keeping the PK'ers guessing for a change. No more just working around the umbrella trying to work a shot onto Matthews tape. In fact Matthews is scoring from every position on the PP other than the point. He is far more mobile, often interchanging with the bumper. They cannot key into him like they were last year. The minute they do, it leaves a play towards the net open.

I think the one difference in having Kase down low is maybe that he really doesn't get cute with it. It's always on and off his tape, and he doesn't try feathering stupid cross crease passes far side that end up in turnovers. Something that maybe Marner is guilty of from time to time. For Kase, It's usually a play towards the goal, or a one touch to the bumper. Oddly enough though, all of the goals that Kase has been a part of have been because he failed to make the pass lol. It's all scramble goals. Which all count the same. That said, I still think I'd rather JT play that role, because he is a better passer than Kase, Better finisher in tight, and he also has that same simplicity to his game.

Long story long, I really think this recent success of the PP is just a run of good fortune. There is a lot to like about the simplicity of this PP. There is always a minimum of 2 outlets for our wall guys, and we are scoring in so many different ways. Which has been the case all year. Even when Marner is here
 
Marner's predictability was one of several issues we've had with our PP.

He did his best work on the PP in the early days with JVR, Bozak & Kadri. Multiple dirty goal options and our opponents still had to worry about Matthews and Nylander on PP2.
 
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I don't know the exact number, but the PP was humming before Marner went down as well. It's not like there was zero success and then Mitch goes down and we instantly become unstoppable. As some posters have mentioned, the pace we are operating at in his absence is flat out unsustainable. It is a statistical outlier. If we really want to look into the recent success, we need to look at how we are scoring those goals.

Gm1: Minny - 2 PPGs
Spezza
- Unbelievable fake shot, 1 touch pass from Matthews to Spezza in the bumper and great finish. Likely a shot Mitch can make in the Bumper, but definitely a shot that Spezza has a better chance at finishing
Matthews - Set play off a won draw, Spezza throws a beautiful dish to Matthews back door, a pass that Marner can make in his sleep. Good read by Spezz, but this is a set play, he is looking for Matthews the entire time.

Gm2: Winnipeg - 2 PPGs

Bunting - Goal scored by PP2
Matthews - 5 on 3 to Matty who rips it

Gm3: Columbus - 2 PPGs
Nylander
- cross seam dish Matthews to Nylander, and finish. Both players are playing in their normal PP spot, Marner would not have factored into the play. Also came 12 seconds into the PP off a won draw. Maybe not as much of a set play, but pretty bang bang.
JT- Tip from Rielly shot off of a won draw yet again

Gm4: Tampa - 2 PPGs
Kase
- Broken play at front of the net, Kase makes a skilled play to put it over Vasy's right shoulder in tight. This is a greasy goal that may not materialize with Marner on the ice. The reason the puck fell to Kase in the first place was because his one touch pass to JT in the bumper got burped back to him. Bit of a fortunate bounce.
Nylander- Broken play off of a neutral zone draw, and complete melt down from TB in final 12 seconds of the Period

Gm5: Chicago - 2 PPGs
JT
- Terrible shot from the wall, little to no traffic, and it somehow goes in. Again off of a won faceoff. Not sure how Marner would have prevented this from occuring
Matthews - Puck gets worked down low, kase attempts to go cross crease to JT back door, Lankanin deflects to Matthews in the bumper and he has an open net. Similar to TB Kase goal, this one almost went in as a result of Kase's failed pass, and the boys were getting in tight to score a greasy goal. Complete playoff goal. Bit lucky, but also a lot of making your own luck by being in the right spots.

Gm6: Edmonton - 1 PPG
Matthews- Puck is thrown towards the goal off yet another won draw, JT and Kase crash the front of the net and will it over to Matty back door who is like a f***ing shark in bloodied water.

the takeaways I grab from all of these goals, is that they are not perfection. They are working the puck down low way more than last year, and it is keeping the PK'ers guessing for a change. No more just working around the umbrella trying to work a shot onto Matthews tape. In fact Matthews is scoring from every position on the PP other than the point. He is far more mobile, often interchanging with the bumper. They cannot key into him like they were last year. The minute they do, it leaves a play towards the net open.

I think the one difference in having Kase down low is maybe that he really doesn't get cute with it. It's always on and off his tape, and he doesn't try feathering stupid cross crease passes far side that end up in turnovers. Something that maybe Marner is guilty of from time to time. For Kase, It's usually a play towards the goal, or a one touch to the bumper. Oddly enough though, all of the goals that Kase has been a part of have been because he failed to make the pass lol. It's all scramble goals. Which all count the same. That said, I still think I'd rather JT play that role, because he is a better passer than Kase, Better finisher in tight, and he also has that same simplicity to his game.

Long story long, I really think this recent success of the PP is just a run of good fortune. There is a lot to like about the simplicity of this PP. There is always a minimum of 2 outlets for our wall guys, and we are scoring in so many different ways. Which has been the case all year. Even when Marner is here

Anecdotally it feels like there's been a change where Auston is getting more crease time and banging home more tap ins but that could just be recency bias.
 
Thats it really. The PP was already one of the best in the league for a while and getting and good amount of bounces has actually just made up for not getting them earlier in the year. Cant really expect rebounds to pop onto our guys sticks or goalies giving up softies forever though but it's great to see this all looks sustainable whoever is out there.

All of this success may have more to do with the dismissal of Malholtra than anything else though, which we were all calling for for half a year.


The PP is where it really gets down to the nitty gritty limits of our stats - there's an argument that on the PP especially there's maybe a bigger or more frequent difference between great chances and super duper great chances that the numbers have a hard time seeing.

Because yeah our PP has always been great by xGF every year - regardless of the personnel and despite the fact that they have brought in assistants with blatantly different PP strategies. No matter what player combos or coaching strategy, these guys always put up elite xGF on the PP.

But there have been wide gaps in actual goals, which might just be sh% variation but might also be a difference in golden chances.

By the flawed and biased eye test right now the PP certainly seems to be moving the puck more quickly and attacking more directly and it seems to be turning into easy goals. That certainly plays into the Marner narrative that he over handles and let's PKs cheat off him. But looking at the massive recent sh% that's obviously wildly unsustainable that take is probably at least a bit of success bias.

PP Stats by Year

16-17: 8.67 xgf/60 (#1), 15.22 sh% (#4), 9.08 gf/60 (#1)
17-18: 9.85 xgf/60 (#1), 14.42 sh% (#8), 9.50 gf/60 (#2)
18-19: 9.39 xgf/60 (#1), 12.47 sh% (#20), 7.77 gf/60 (#10)
19-20: 6.86 xgf/60 (#17), 15.46 sh% (#6), 8.18 gf/60 (#6)
20-21: 8.83 xgf/60 (#1), 13.00 sh% (#19), 8.01 gf/60 (#10)
21-22: 9.95 xgf/60 (#2), 16.88 sh% (#4), 12.20 gf/60 (#2)

Those first two years the Leafs were great at both creating chances and converting them and had the best PP in hockey as a result.

The last few years have weirdly alternated between 2 years with elite xgf but awful sh%, and 1yr with poor xgf but good sh%, giving us a good but not great PP all 3 years.

This year for the first time in a while we have a PP that's elite at both chance creation and conversion again which is nice to see.....but as to whether that's sustainable or not I just don't know.
 
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Anecdotally it feels like there's been a change where Auston is getting more crease time and banging home more tap ins but that could just be recency bias.
I don't think that's recency bias at all. He's got 8 PP goals on the year:

VGK: Cross seam dish from Willy, vintage Matthews snipe from the LW wall

BOS 1: Marner gains the zone, MAtthews goes to the net and bangs home in tight

BOS 2: Puck gets moved arouned the umbrella to Matthews on the RW wall for a 1T

NASH: Similar to VGK, Cross seam dish from Willy to Matthews with a vintage snipe

MINN: Starts on the Left point. Won draw to Mo at the point, set play sees Mo rotate to Matthews spot on the left point while Auston got down low, Puck moves to Spezza on Right side D where he feeds a back door pass to Matthews at the doorstep

WPG: 5 on 3, Matthews rips short side in a classic fashion

CHI: Matthews starts on the RW wall, rotates into the bumper once the puck moves to the point. Puck gets moved around the umbrella back down low where Kase attempt to put the puck back door to JT but it squirts out to Matthews crashing the net.

EDM: Faceoff , Matthews starts out at RD spot. Draw gets won to Rielly on LD who then throws it towards net. Auston then closes in on the goal mouth knowing a play is going to be made towards the net, and bangs home the open net when it falls on his tape. Rielly rotates to RD and Willy to LD when Auston steps up in the event of a turnover.

Auston has scored 2 vintage snipes from the LW wall, 2 from RW wall, and 4 in tight.

He's constantly moving. Which completely f***s the PK. They cannot key into him or they get exposed.

I think the CHI goal was the best example of how much rotation and movement is occurring this year on the PP vs. Last year. (3:26)



Matthews rotates into the bumper beautifully once the puck gets worked to JT down low. He then plays it to the point and assumes Matthews spot on the wall. It gets work around a bit before going to Kase who has rotated to the net front and then look at how JT and Auston go to goal on that play... That's a goal you score in the playoffs when guys lay out a bit more. Great puck movement, and get to the net.

I think Spencer Carbery deserves a ton of credit for making this PP far less predictable IMO
 
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I don't think that's recency bias at all. He's got 8 PP goals on the year:

VGK: Cross seam dish from Willy, vintage Matthews snipe from the LW wall

BOS 1: Marner gains the zone, MAtthews goes to the net and bangs home in tight

BOS 2: Puck gets moved arouned the umbrella to Matthews on the RW wall for a 1T

NASH: Similar to VGK, Cross seam dish from Willy to Matthews with a vintage snipe

MINN: Starts on the Left point. Won draw to Mo at the point, set play sees Mo rotate to Matthews spot on the left point while Auston got down low, Puck moves to Spezza on Right side D where he feeds a back door pass to Matthews at the doorstep

WPG: 5 on 3, Matthews rips short side in a classic fashion

CHI: Matthews starts on the RW wall, rotates into the bumper once the puck moves to the point. Puck gets moved around the umbrella back down low where Kase attempt to put the puck back door to JT but it squirts out to Matthews crashing the net.

EDM: Faceoff , Matthews starts out at RD spot. Draw gets won to Rielly on LD who then throws it towards net. Auston then closes in on the goal mouth knowing a play is going to be made towards the net, and bangs home the open net when it falls on his tape. Rielly rotates to RD and Willy to LD when Auston steps up in the event of a turnover.

Auston has scored 2 vintage snipes from the LW wall, 2 from RW wall, and 4 in tight.

He's constantly moving. Which completely f***s the PK. They cannot key into him or they get exposed.

I think the CHI goal was the best example of how much rotation and movement is occurring this year on the PP vs. Last year. (3:26)



Matthews rotates into the bumper beautifully once the puck gets worked to JT down low. He then plays it to the point and assumes Matthews spot on the wall. It gets work around a bit before going to Kase who has rotated to the net front and then look at how JT and Auston go to goal on that play... That's a goal you score in the playoffs when guys lay out a bit more. Great puck movement, and get to the net.

I think Spencer Carbery deserves a ton of credit for making this PP far less predictable IMO


Nice work.

And I love it. A whirling interchangeable motion PP is all I've ever wanted to see.
 
I don't mind Marner on PP1 but I do think he's being used incorrectly. Don't put him in a prime scoring location when you know he's going to pass 99/100 times.

I would consider trying him out at Gretzky's office. I think this would make the PP way more lethal because you have an elite passer behind the net that can feed the puck to three elite shooters in Matthews, Nylander and Tavares. Having that talent behind the net will also force other teams to pay attention to him and allow other players on the Leafs to relocate to more open areas on the ice to receive a pass.

Just a thought
 
As muc
Even if it is just a hot streak he should move to PP 2 when he comes back if it is still hot.
Don’t mess with what’s working.
In that scenario he could be used to really bost PP 2.
as much as I love Marner I agree if it’s not broke don’t fix it
 
I’m happy for the team to have scored at that pace while MM has been injured , that bodes well for us moving forward … now I can’t wait for him to be back to the team . He’s a huge part of our team and success In the future .
A player like Marner brings so much to a team , with his enthusiasm, skill , defensive capabilities, and leadership qualities .
Go Leafs Go
 
If the PP is going as strong as now when Marner comes back. I really don't see a reason to put Marner back in.
Heck if Kase-AM-Bunting are scoring and dominating, I dont see putting Marner back on that line too.
It seems like PP1 and the AM line are having good chemistry and good vibe, why do you want to alter that.
 

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