Toronto has scored 11PPGs since Marner injury

[francis246]

You really think a GM was going to give up 4 first round picks and 13 million per year for Mitch Marner?

Delusional..yes, no question.

yes. because the number had to be big for two reasons, 1 for Toronto to even consider not matching, 2 for marner to even think long and hard about leaving. Everyone knows that a 9.5 offer was getting matched quite easily. That's the whole point of offersheets, make the other team as uncomfortable as possible. But GM's are too scared to rock the boat. It's why the NHL is such a joke of a league, and it'll never pass the NBA, NFL, MLB and hell it'll even fall behind MLS soon too.

The man scored 94 points. We are talking about at that point in time. You can keep using hindsight because you hate him. But In that moment, yes I believe the reports that teams were willing to pay a premium for him and there are confirmed reports that CBJ made an offer that was at least at the 4 first round pick threshold (no confirmation of the number) but we do know Jarko was willing to give up 4 first rounders for Marner.

 

[francis246]

Aho could have signed an offersheet with any of the 30 teams in the league so it wasn't just Montreal trying to structure a contract Carolina wouldn't match and Aho would agree too but also out bidding any other team than was looking to poach him .

so what you're overlooking is why wouldn't Columbus offer him 9-9.5m instead of the 11 plus you keep believing they offered Marner and save the cap space and extra picks ?

Aho was coming off a 30g/83pt season and it's not like he was surrounded by a group of high scoring elite forwards .

your spin about how the Jackets needed to offer some outrageous sum to pry Marner out of Tor may be true but ignores the fact they had other players they could target and the 4 firsts as comp as well as a ridiculous cap hit on there books make offering him that deal pure nonsense

you see very few offer sheets because they don't make sense so this idea that teams were lining up too offer only our players outrageous deals is fairy tales made up by company employed "insiders'' to deflect criticism away from our mgmt team

Dude I don’t give a f*** about these comps you keep talking about. You keep going in circles and keep saying, “oh why didn’t CBJ go after rantanen or Aho, wah wah wah” OBVIOUSLY THEY LIKED MARNER BETTER. If they wanted those other guys they would have GONE AFTER THEM. BUT THEY GOD DAMN DIDNT BECAUSE THEIR TARGET was Marner. And that is substantiated by actual reports from that year. That is a question only the Columbus organization can answer. I don’t have that answer for you why they preferred Marner. Obviously their scouting and management team did an evaluation of all players available and identified Marner as the guy they want. What the f*** is your issue with that LMAO. You guys have to find a conspiracy with everything, you guys aren’t the smartest hockey minds. Some GM’s clearly prefer Marner to Aho and in fact there are probably a lot of Hockey Minds who think Marner is way better than Aho and there probably a lot that think Aho is better than Marner. It’s how sports work, their isn’t one linear way of evaluating players.

 

[ACC1224]

LOL didn’t Dubas say no to the 9x8 contract at first?

8.5 x 8 was the initial ask.

I guess the PP discussion ran its course and it's back to re-hashing the contract.

When will we start to beat up another player?

 

[francis246]

8.5 x 8 was the initial ask.

I guess the PP discussion ran its course and it's back to re-hashing the contract.

When will we start to beat up another player?

idk once Marner gets a couple points again on the power play the same guys will be asking us to waive Mikhayev again or blaming Justin Holl for every GA even when he’s on the bench lol.

God forbid teams actually wanted Marner over Aho or Rantanen in 2019! THERES NOOOOO way that’s plausible!

 

[Michael HOMERUNing]

on Steve dangle podcast they said Columbus offered 13 million.

Columbus offered 13 million? That had to have been a 1 year deal because Columbus does not have the money to shell out 100 million on any 1 player. I also wouldn’t take anything that anyone from SN or TSN has to say at face value, unless they are an insider, because those companies are obligated to prop up Leafs management, being under the same ownership group

 

[francis246]

Columbus offered 13 million? That had to have been a 1 year deal because Columbus does not have the money to shell out 100 million on any 1 player. I also wouldn’t take anything that anyone from SN or TSN has to say at face value, unless they are an insider, because those companies are obligated to prop up Leafs management, being under the same ownership group

I agree the 13 million is a bit rich, I was simply just relaying what was mentioned. I personally do think it was closer to 11 or something north of 11. or it could have 13 on a shorter term. who knows, they never mentioned the years just the number when I was listening to the podcast. also the bolded is a load of dog shit, if you listen to any of the shows on TSN at least, I can't really speak for SN that network is horrible, those guys are some of Dubas' most harshest critics. I mainly listen to overdrive, Mike Johnston, CJ, Lebrun. Those guys aren't always kissing leafs management's ass and often they are questioning the moves.

 

[ToneDog]

Lots of emotional posts. I personally don't believe the Jackets would have offered $13m and Marner had no interest in going there. Hell one by one, players have bolted out of there (Bob, Panarin, Jones, Duchene, PLD, RyJo etc.) . Question is are the Leafs better with 4 first picks and $10.893m in cap space?? I say yes.

 

[ACC1224]

Any number can get thrown out because at the end of the day Marner wasn't leaving so no Offer Sheet would have been presented.
Speculated numbers were outrageous because the feeling was it would have to be an outrageous number for him to consider leaving.
Thankfully it didn't come to that.

 

[Confucius]

Lots of emotional posts. I personally don't believe the Jackets would have offered $13m and Marner had no interest in going there. Hell one by one, players have bolted out of there (Bob, Panarin, Jones, Duchene, PLD, RyJo etc.) . Question is are the Leafs better with 4 first picks and $10.893m in cap space?? I say yes.

Not all 1sts are equal, If they were 4 top 10's sure, if they are 4 from 22 to 32, probably not.

 

[Atomos2]

I don't mind Marner being back on the top powerplay. But why the hell did he take Nylander's spot on the half wall. Marner's done nothing to deserve it and Nylander has been amazing in that spot. Marner will be predictably always looking for the tip pass. Nylander is much more dangerous over there.

 

[ToneDog]

Not all 1sts are equal, If they were 4 top 10's sure, if they are 4 from 22 to 32, probably not.

Used wisely (and I say that because GMs blow cap space when it is available) imagine what Dubas could have done with Marner's + Ritchie's and Mrazek's cap hits this past summer. Imagine removing those three and adding another Kase and Bunting, a solid dman and a less injury prone goalie last summer. The 4 firsts are gravy. You can restock the farm and use them to add at the TDL. Pretty clear to me.

Hindsight is 20/20 but if you also lost Holl and protected McCann instead, I'd say we'd be a much better team.

 

[freshwind]

re-read the friedman quote from that time .... $$ was not the issue with columbus, it was TERM ....
if they would have done shorter term he was going .... there was a NEGOTIATION ...
why do that if you were "never leaving regardless"

 

[ToneDog]

I don't mind Marner being back on the top powerplay. But why the hell did he take Nylander's spot on the half wall. Marner's done nothing to deserve it and Nylander has been amazing in that spot. Marner will be predictably always looking for the tip pass. Nylander is much more dangerous over there.

Nobody deserves to lose their jobs due to injury but it sure smells like they want to keep 16 from getting pissed off IMO. I expected it, but if PP1 sputters again with 16, you gotta move 16 to PP2.

 

[ACC1224]

I don't mind Marner being back on the top powerplay. But why the hell did he take Nylander's spot on the half wall. Marner's done nothing to deserve it and Nylander has been amazing in that spot. Marner will be predictably always looking for the tip pass. Nylander is much more dangerous over there.

Yep, issue has always been the coaching not the personnel.

 

[ACC1224]

re-read the friedman quote from that time .... $$ was not the issue with columbus, it was TERM ....
if they would have done shorter term he was going .... there was a NEGOTIATION ...
why do that if you were "never leaving regardless"

It's the Agents job to explore all avenues. He wasn't going to sit out forever, they would have had a contingency in place.

 

[francis246]

I don't mind Marner being back on the top powerplay. But why the hell did he take Nylander's spot on the half wall. Marner's done nothing to deserve it and Nylander has been amazing in that spot. Marner will be predictably always looking for the tip pass. Nylander is much more dangerous over there.

that's what worked the first couple of seasons, the Matthews and Nylander on each half wall and those cross seam passes were beautiful to watch. I don't know why we ever went away from that. They moved the puck so fast to each other.

 

[Atomos2]

Nobody deserves to lose their jobs due to injury but it sure smells like they want to keep 16 from getting pissed off. I expected it, but if PP1 sputters again with 16, you gotta move 16 to PP2.

I honestly don't even mind him on the top unit. But at the beginning of the season before his injury they had him in the high bumper spot and moving around. Now its like they reverted back to the same stagnant pp setup that was so horrible last season and seems to have picked up where they left off.

Nylander needs to be in that spot permanently. He's much more dangerous. Don't care where Marner is but just not in that spot.

 

[ACC1224]

I honestly don't even mind him on the top unit. But at the beginning of the season before his injury they had him in the high bumper spot and moving around. Now its like they reverted back to the same stagnant pp setup that was so horrible last season and seems to have picked up where they left off.

Nylander needs to be in that spot permanently. He's much more dangerous. Don't care where Marner is but just not in that spot.

It's a puzzle for sure. Seems like they are just trying to force the square peg. Love to know what their thinking is behind the deployment.

 

[TMLAM34]

re-read the friedman quote from that time .... $$ was not the issue with columbus, it was TERM ....
if they would have done shorter term he was going .... there was a NEGOTIATION ...
why do that if you were "never leaving regardless"

It gave Marner another tool to use with his negotiations with Dubas and the Leafs having another contract offer of 13 million regardless if he was actually going to leave or not.

To be honest, Marner should go this summer regardless. I’d be looking at either Philadelphia or the Islanders. Konecny and Farabee from Philadelphia would be good additions. Pulock, Wahlstrom and Beauvillier for Marner and Holl wouldn’t be a bad package as well. The Islander deal would really give us a lot of cap flexibility and a top pairing of Rielly and Pulock would be amazing. Then you’d have Sandin and Brodie as the second pair and Muzzin with Liljegren on the third.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Any number can get thrown out because at the end of the day Marner wasn't leaving so no Offer Sheet would have been presented.

Marner of course earned the contract he got relative to recent and historical comparables, but we actually do also know for a fact that two teams presented offer sheets. It was confirmed by the Marner camp. They just weren't signed, because Marner wanted to be here.

We don't know for a fact the exact details of the offer sheets, but there are some things that were pretty widely reported.

-The two offer sheets were from Columbus and Minnesota
-Columbus wanted long-term (most widely believed to be 7 years)
-Columbus believed that Leafs would match, likely by trading Nylander

From there, it's pretty easy to draw some likely conclusions.

Teams, Montreal excluded, tend to give offer sheets above market value - especially if they're trying to pry a player away from a team with extensive financial resources. They also knew that any chance of Marner signing the offer sheet and leaving Toronto would be because of money, not the cities and teams involved, so their offer would have to be substantial to be seriously considered.

Toronto had about 11m to match without trading Nylander, so if the topic of trading Nylander emerged in the context of the offer sheet, it likely meant that the offer sheet would have been beyond the Leaf's available cap space (which also just makes sense with how offer sheets work).

As for the people going "but four 1sts!!!"... Well, with the knowledge that Columbus wanted long-term, and likely a 7 year term, we can also conclude that such an offer sheet would have to be in the four 1st round pick range to make any sense. Offer sheet compensation is set at the total amount divided by the lesser of the term or 5 years, so if a 7-year offer sheet was presented, the AAV would have had to be a ridiculous 7.5m to be under the four 1st compensation line. Even 6 years would have been a ridiculous 8.8m. It's literally impossible to present a realistic offer sheet above 5 years that didn't have four 1st compensation.

I understand that HFboards tends to wildly overrate 1st round picks and will think it's crazy, but GMs actually understand how rare and how valuable a player like Marner was - especially signed long-term through his prime.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the PP though. However, it does provide further proof that this original PP discussion isn't really about the PP. It's still about the contract, and the anger people have over it, creating these intense internal biases that negatively skew their perception of everything Marner, even to the point of something as silly as believing he's a liability on the PP.

 

[The Podium]

Marner threads have become insufferable

 

[ACC1224]

Marner threads have become insufferable

Amen to that!

 

[Voodoo Child]

The failings of the power play for one game where the Leafs blew out the depleted Sens anyways can’t be blamed entirely on Mitch, but if it keeps up the next 2-3 games, you gotta take him off that top unit, the evidence is pretty damning.

Magic Mitch, Mercurial Mitch. He goes through these phases where he’s rushing everything and trying to do too much, but then he’ll do something and it works and he snaps back into his game.

He needs to cool it with the fancy east-west business, he does too much of it in all three zones and on the PP when he isn’t big or strong enough to handle it, probably 95% of top-pair Dmen in the game today are quick enough to neutralize his evasiveness.

Auston and JT are brick houses, and that’s a fact, and Willy has that explosive first step, they can do it.

Mitch needs to focus on always pushing the puck up the ice.

I dislike the deal and hated the way it all went down but he’s a visionary offensive and excellent two way talent, not a lot of players can put up his numbers.

I would have traded him anytime in the last 6 months, and truthfully yeah, mostly because cap, if he was making 8.5 it’d be fine.

However, I think he deserves one more shot at the playoffs. He makes it rain and he’s earned some respect, he fails, again, he drops his value and you get hosed on any deal.

@TMLAM34, no way in hell you get both of those from Philly or all three from NYI, they’d definitely never give up Pulock.

I’d take Mayfield, Bailey and a 1st in there somewhere or something around Farabee, Sanheim and picks easily.

 

[Caroline Says ll]

The powerplay is not a Marner issue. The powerplay is a coaching issue.

They are taking away a set up which had short term success and reverted to the setup which has struggled for over a year.

Whatever your views on Marner - his skills are better suited elsewhere on the 1st powerplay unit. Whether behind the net where his playmaking could excel or bumper spot where he can react to rebounds and get to loose pucks- where most of his NHL goals have happened.

After seeing him QBing for over a year at the halfwall, does anyone here want to see that continue?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Marner threads have become insufferable

When were they not? Very little realistic discussion about Marner the player has happened on this site for 3 years now. Just people pretending that Marner is to blame for everything to try and justify their silly anger over his contract.