Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo: Part V

[OrlandK]

No brainer to trade a 24 year old, 60 point defenseman who plays the right side and a 25 year old 55 point RW (who with some more growth could be 25 goal, 60 point forward) AND a number 1 pick for a defenseman? No thank you. Just DeAngelo for Werenski? Sure. But in no way am i giving up that much in assets to acquire him.

Also, who are the top 4 wings without him? And who are the ones that play the right side?

Nils has not played one second on North American ice, Robertson has not played one second of anywhere besides juniors and Miller has not played one second beyond college. Who knows what they will be like and more importantly where? I do not know much, but I do know that the odds of them replacing what DeAngelo brings offensively is extremely little.

I think you are seriously underrating a 23 year old 6' 2" 212 lb 1st pair dman who I think has been an all star twice already. They don't don't grow on trees. None of the many fine Ranger LHD prospects figure to be first pair so the issue of who plays with Trouba will remain.

Of the 3 top left wings - Bread, Kreds and ALF one is obviously going to be tried on the right side at some point. Which one is up to the coaches.

 

[True Blue]

I think you are seriously underrating a 23 year old 6' 2" 212 lb 1st pair dman who I think has been an all star twice already. They don't don't grow on trees. None of the many fine Ranger LHD prospects figure to be first pair so the issue of who plays with Trouba will remain.

Nor do 60 point defensemen.

Of the 3 top left wings - Bread, Kreds and ALF one is obviously going to be tried on the right side at some point. Which one is up to the coaches.

No one is being tried anywhere yet. And for all we know, not any time soon. Maybe Kreider will get look see there at camp. And even with him , I am still not finding the forwards that are ready to replace Buchnevich on the right side.

 

[OrlandK]

Nor do 60 point defensemen.

No one is being tried anywhere yet. And for all we know, not any time soon. Maybe Kreider will get look see there at camp. And even with him , I am still not finding the forwards that are ready to replace Buchnevich on the right side.

I love Tony and I think he if misunderstood. Listening to his podcast, etc. I conclude that he is very bright, and very popular in the locker room. He is a tremendous offensive dman but he does have defensive issues and for all his toughness his size is an issue against big forwards. That said he just isn't the complete package like Werenski. And more importantly the Rangers need a LHD, especially one who can play first pair. Both Fox and Trouba are offensive dmen, even if not quite at Tony's level.

Buch isn't so solidified in his standing that replacing him is even appropriate. Moving a forward from one side to the other is not that difficult for some wings. Given we have 3 I'm fairly certain one can handle it. The 3 Left Wings all need top 6 minutes, along with Kakko.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Fox did not run what was one of the best power plays in the league (and on the Rangers in maybe 20 years) nearly as well and Fox will in all likelihood be a much better rounded defenseman, he is not and has not shown that he is capable of tilting the ice the way that DeAngelo can. So I guess all depends on what your definition "replace" is.

Just saying we don’t need to rely on Lundkvist

 

[True Blue]

Just saying we don’t need to rely on Lundkvist

It order for what?

 

[True Blue]

I love Tony and I think he if misunderstood. Listening to his podcast, etc. I conclude that he is very bright, and very popular in the locker room. He is a tremendous offensive dman but he does have defensive issues and for all his toughness his size is an issue against big forwards. That said he just isn't the complete package like Werenski. And more importantly the Rangers need a LHD, especially one who can play first pair. Both Fox and Trouba are offensive dmen, even if not quite at Tony's level.

I am not denying that DeAngelo needs defensive improvement. But it is far easier to find him a partner, than find another him. At 60 points, you can learn to live with the warts.

Werenski is excellent. But he does not tilt the ice the way DeAngelo can. Would I trade DeAngelo for Werenski? Yeah. But certainly not including a 55 point forward and and a first round pick in the transaction.

Buch isn't so solidified in his standing that replacing him is even appropriate. Moving a forward from one side to the other is not that difficult for some wings. Given we have 3 I'm fairly certain one can handle it. The 3 Left Wings all need top 6 minutes, along with Kakko.

There is currently no one that is knocking on the door to replace Buch. Moving positions is not that easy, especially at the NHL level. This is not a video game. By moving Panarin over, you take away his shot and one timer. The Rangers are not going to monkey around with the top overall pick and have him switch positions in his first year. The top 3 LWs do not all need top-6 minutes. Only the top two do. Lafreinere is not lock here. Maybe Kreider switches as he is already a lefty. Kakko, first need to show that he deserves top-6 consideration before you can state that he needs those minutes. All he needs to do is show it. But until he does, he can play on the third line, where his play last year showed that he deserved to be.

So, no. Am still not seeing the right wings that are threatening Buchnevich's position.

 

[Levitate]

Fox has great vision, sees the game a couple plays ahead. I think he breaks up plays better than ADA, yet he is not all that strong in his own zone.

ADA however can make zone exits look really easy whether he is skating it or outlet passing. ADA also has shown more on the PP, he has a knack for it and I'm not so sure Fox has it to the same degree. Yet he has more trouble in his own zone than Fox does.

Given either they or Trouba would always be on the ice when the RD was healthy, it seems to me like it comes down to coaching just using 1 over the other 2 more or less depending on the game score leading/tied/trailing and special teams situations.

Fox did not run what was one of the best power plays in the league (and on the Rangers in maybe 20 years) nearly as well and Fox will in all likelihood be a much better rounded defenseman, he is not and has not shown that he is capable of tilting the ice the way that DeAngelo can. So I guess all depends on what your definition "replace" is.

I mean...Fox is 2 years younger and a rookie who hadn't seen any pro games before this. He still put up 42 points in 70 games with limited PP time.

I don't think Fox really got enough time to settle in to running the top PP but it was a big strength of his in college and I think it's entirely possible he can do it as good as DeAngelo.

I do think he has shown he can tilt the ice the way that DeAngelo can...all of his analytics bear this out. He can control a game in a way that DeAngelo can't quite do. That said, they have different strengths to some extent. Trying to rank those strengths is always a bit tricky.

I'm not in a hurry to move DeAngelo though...you do it if a great offer comes along and it makes sense for the cap future of the team, not just to move a player because they have value.

 

[Levitate]

Werenski is excellent. But he does not tilt the ice the way DeAngelo can. Would I trade DeAngelo for Werenski? Yeah. But certainly not including a 55 point forward and and a first round pick in the transaction.

This is the second time you've talked about DeAngelo tilting the ice, can you explain what you mean by that?

 

[and 99 others]

Because DeAngelo is way better than Fox

this is just a horrifically bad take

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

this is just a horrifically bad take

It is, but so are your takes on DeAngelo.

 

[and 99 others]

It is, but so are your takes on DeAngelo.

which means Tony's fair trade value is somewhere between serviceable 2C and a top pairing defenseman

 

[Levitate]

I think both are good players. I think ultimately it's just that down the road the team needs to decide which is the keeper, but it's not necessarily something that needs to be decided right now

 

[Rongomania]

I think both are good players. I think ultimately it's just that down the road the team needs to decide which is the keeper, but it's not necessarily something that needs to be decided right now

Exactly. We are also a stronger team with Fox and Tony. Getting a competent LHD for Tony fixes so many issues on the back end. That is a lot cheaper and less complicated than any trade scenario involving Tony. Sadly, Buch I feel would nab us that LHD. We can much more afford to move a 50+ point winger than a 60pt PP controlling RD who needs a partner that is not Marc Staal.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

which means Tony's fair trade value is somewhere between serviceable 2C and a top pairing defenseman

I think this is fair, but there is more that goes into a players value than these labels as you know. Control, cost, etc. all matter.

 

[Levitate]

Exactly. We are also a stronger team with Fox and Tony. Getting a competent LHD for Tony fixes so many issues on the back end. That is a lot cheaper and less complicated than any trade scenario involving Tony. Sadly, Buch I feel would nab us that LHD. We can much more afford to move a 50+ point winger than a 60pt PP controlling RD who needs a partner that is not Marc Staal.

Yeah I think you can look at something like the Lindgren-Fox pairing and see that you don't necessarily need like a stud #1 defenseman to pair with a guy like Fox or DeAngelo, but someone who can provide some steady support.

 

[Rongomania]

Yeah I think you can look at something like the Lindgren-Fox pairing and see that you don't necessarily need like a stud #1 defenseman to pair with a guy like Fox or DeAngelo, but someone who can provide some steady support.

Yeah, I think a good vet LD not TOO old would not only teach Tony some good tendencies, but provide a stronger overall defensive D.

You or anyone also think one of our more defensive minded LD prospects could slot in next to Tony kinda how Lindgren brought that this year? Good D play on the left side from a rookie would also really change things for the better.

 

[MysticLeviathan]

if you look at our young core and if they all become NHL players then our D corp will be so deep, we'll have to trade some players away
Robertson, Miller, Jones, Lindgren, Rykov, Hajek, Reunanen on the left
Trouba (not going anywhere), Fox, ADA, Lundkvist on the right

But that's kinda the point... they won't all be NHL level players. That's why you have a deep prospect pool because you know there will be busts. Remember before Shesterkin you had Halverson? He seemed to be a prime candidate to be Hank's replacement... then he tanked. And those who do end up in the NHL may only be bottom pairing level guys. There's no guarantee. Even Nils isn't a guarantee, and he's had incredible hype the last year or so now.

 

[True Blue]

I do think he has shown he can tilt the ice the way that DeAngelo can...all of his analytics bear this out. He can control a game in a way that DeAngelo can't quite do. That said, they have different strengths to some extent. Trying to rank those strengths is always a bit tricky.

I'm not in a hurry to move DeAngelo though...you do it if a great offer comes along and it makes sense for the cap future of the team, not just to move a player because they have value.

Agreed that trying to compare the two is a bit challenging.

And again, I am not against moving DeAngelo. But that return profile better have a lot of value. And certainly not by adding the kitchen sink in order to get just one player. DeAngelo by himself should be able to fetch something that makes the other fanbase cringe.

This is the second time you've talked about DeAngelo tilting the ice, can you explain what you mean by that?

How quickly he can get the team to go from defense to offense, how well he runs the PP and keeps the puck in the opposition's net, etc. Does not always work and at times results in bonehead defensive plays, at times it seems that with him on the ice, the play takes place in the opposition's end more often than not.

 

[OrlandK]

We need a number 1 LHD, who pairs well with Trouba. It is one of the biggest need (along with a 2C) we have going forward if we want to contend for the Cup. We are not going to get that by trading ADA alone. You need the kitchen sink approach unless you are trading an all star for an all star and we don't have one to trade.

 

[Inferno]

I would like to see what Ada could do with a coach like martin. I feel like his d can improve a lot with better coaching

 

[Leetch3]

I would like to see what Ada could do with a coach like martin. I feel like his d can improve a lot with better coaching

and a real partner...not that we have that option right now.

 

[True Blue]

We need a number 1 LHD, who pairs well with Trouba. It is one of the biggest need (along with a 2C) we have going forward if we want to contend for the Cup. We are not going to get that by trading ADA alone. You need the kitchen sink approach unless you are trading an all star for an all star and we don't have one to trade.

Who is and how is not an all-star is a pretty arbitrary process and not at all indicative of level of play.

5th out of all NHL defenseman in scoring. Just what is it that you think DeAngelo is? How many people were accomplishing what he was on the precipice of accomplishing this past year, in the last decade? And at his age?

There is no kitchen sink when it comes to trading DeAngelo. He is the kitchen sink. It is one thing to simply be an offensive defenseman. It is another to be the difference maker that he has been showing himself to be.

 

[Mandar]

Who is and how is not an all-star is a pretty arbitrary process and not at all indicative of level of play.

5th out of all NHL defenseman in scoring. Just what is it that you think DeAngelo is? How many people were accomplishing what he was on the precipice of accomplishing this past year, in the last decade? And at his age?

There is no kitchen sink when it comes to trading DeAngelo. He is the kitchen sink. It is one thing to simply be an offensive defenseman. It is another to be the difference maker that he has been showing himself to be.

Aho sure thought so....

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Because DeAngelo is way better than Fox

 

[Mac n Gs]

For all the talk about how Tony was 4th in 5v5 scoring among dmen this season, we somehow conveniently ignore that Fox only had 8 fewer points and was 23rd overall among dmen. Tony only had 3 more primary points than him too.