To Make Whole or Make Partial -- THAT is the question (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXV

[mouser]

Is Dolan, the owner of the richest franchise in the US allowed to be present at negotiation sessions?

Perhaps he's still sulking after the media rights snit with the league.

 

[danaluvsthekings]

Considering how short the duration of the average player's career, why should they care abut the "health" of the NHL?

If you have a short career in a league where a salary cap is tied to revenues, then you better want the league to be healthy so you can maximize your earning potential.

Not to mention, quite a few former NHL players are employed by teams as scouts, assistant coaches, head coaches, GMs, other front office positions, broadcasters. You want as many viable teams as possible so players have those job opportunities when they retire.

I counted 11 former players working for the Kings as coaches, front office people, scouts, and broadcasters. So if 10 former players employed by NHL teams in off-ice positions is an average number, that's 300 former players league wide with NHL jobs after they're done playing. That's a good reason why as a player you want to see 30 healthy teams because you might find a job with one when you retire.

 

[NinthSpoke06]

When Fehr surrounds himself with members of the negotiating committee who are no longer NHLers, there is not much hope left. The final outcome will not affect the future earning potentials of Darche and Campoli IMHO.

Exactly. Fehr is an ass, but he isn't a dumb guy. He knows surrounding himself with guys who have a lot to lose (Crosby, Ovechkin) and guys who have nothing to lose (Darche, Campoli) means that he is protected.

 

[surixon]

At this point, I would like to see the NHL just say that they have put up their best offer and the NHLPA has until Dec. 15 to accept it or the 2012-13 season will be cancelled.

There is no longer time to play Donald Fehr's game.

I would try to negotiate for one more week but if the PA is still playing games then I would support your position, enough is enough.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I think most people do understand the difference.

I also think that most people understand that the NHL was paying the players something like 74 percent of HRR when the revenue pool was $2 billion, and are currently paying them 57 percent when the revenue pool is $3.3 billion.

What (some) don't understand is why the owners can't turn a profit when their labor costs have decreased (in relative terms) at a time that revenues have more than doubled.

2.0 billion is not doubled at 3.3 billion and how you come up with "more than doubled" is really overstating your premise. Also, the players salaries have increased by leaps and bounds each season as they passed on since the last CBA too.

The real problem is giving the players 50% or more in the first place.

They can't turn a profit because, their operating costs and their player costs together are over that 74% range. Think about it, the players take 57%, now add in the operating costs for an individual team.

If you would do the numbers,(players salary increases and increased revenue) the owners are no better off than they were before.

There's a reason why the players would gladly play under the old CBA while this gets worked out. It would drag on for years. They had no incentive to move forward.

 

[Bob b smith]

Perhaps he's still sulking after the media rights snit with the league.

If Dolan wouldn't be sulking would he be permitted? How about owners for the Leafs and Habs are they permitted to assist at negotiation sessions?

 

[Jack de la Hoya]

2.0 billion is not doubled at 3.3 billion and how you come up with "more than doubled" is really overstating your premise. Also, the players salaries have increased by leaps and bounds each season as they passed on since the last CBA too.

The real problem is giving the players 50% or more in the first place.

They can't turn a profit because, their operating costs and their player costs together are over that 74% range. Think about it, the players take 57%, now add in the operating costs for an individual team.

If you would do the numbers,(players salary increases and increased revenue) the owners are no better off than they were before.

There's a reason why the players would gladly play under the old CBA while this gets worked out. It would drag on for years. They had no incentive to move forward.

Yeah, I don't know why I wrote more than doubled. It was before my second cup of coffee.

 

[Riptide]

No, I don't think they would. There is a small group on the owner's side that is controlling this and that little dictator Bettman won't allow anyone else to be heard.

This is pure ********. Bettman needs 8 owners to back him. There's a lot more than 8 teams who are in trouble under the CBA. Other than a few of the top teams who will make money regardless of what deal is put in place, he likely has support from a large group of the owners who need to see a better CBA to allow them to break even.

As for him fining the owners for speaking... yes it sucks as I would love to hear their thoughts... however after seeing the **** the players were writing/saying, it makes perfect sense to have a gag order. The players made themselves look like idiots. Bettman was smart to prevent the owners from doing the same.

 

[Kelly23]

Time for the Owners to dig in and not budge if the PA don't like it no season come back next year and get 52% instead of 50-50 time to make theese greedy *****es pay up

 

[TaketheCannoli]

If you have a short career in a league where a salary cap is tied to revenues, then you better want the league to be healthy so you can maximize your earning potential.

Not to mention, quite a few former NHL players are employed by teams as scouts, assistant coaches, head coaches, GMs, other front office positions, broadcasters. You want as many viable teams as possible so players have those job opportunities when they retire.

I counted 11 former players working for the Kings as coaches, front office people, scouts, and broadcasters. So if 10 former players employed by NHL teams in off-ice positions is an average number, that's 300 former players league wide with NHL jobs after they're done playing. That's a good reason why as a player you want to see 30 healthy teams because you might find a job with one when you retire.

So how many of the current 700 players can end up working for an NHL team, 100 at a maximum?

Not very compelling.

 

[Bruins71*]

Time for the Owners to dig in and not budge if the PA don't like it no season come back next year and get 52% instead of 50-50 time to make theese greedy *****es pay up

I honestly think this is exactly what will happen next summer, followed shortly by the PA giving Fehr the boot.

 

[Shrimper]

One thing is clear is that they both want to get a deal done (Wether that's too a different extent for both is another thing) and I think after a week-ish of negotiating a deal in principle will be struck on Friday with the season starting December 1st for a 60 game season.

 

[officeglen]

Watching labour negotiations unfold is a poor spectator’s sport, as both sides are bad for wanting more for themselves, and it’s lose/lose/lose process, where both sides lose, and their customers lose, until resolution is reached. Unless you enjoy labour battles/game theory/conflict resolution you will find the whole thing frustrating, and are better off spending your time on other activities. For example I purchased NFL gamepass for my sports "fix" this fall.

However, having said that, I do enjoy labour battles/game theory/conflict resolution and I’m finding this hockey fight fascinating, even though it's about how to divide up my money while not providing me any services. I don’t take sides in these battles as both sides are almost always motivated by pure self-interest and not any altruist goals (such as the media spins “we are doing this for the fans”, or in a teachers’ strike “for the children”, or in a bus strike “to keep fares low” or “to improve service”). Instead here we have ace NY Corporate Law against top Union Law, and these lawyers are playing their games and not the ones we want to cheer for.

The NHL went with the modern approach of lowballs, deadlines, ultimatums, media spin, attack the leader, and frame/manage the process. However none of that is working as they are against a true genius at these battles, who continues to keep the NHL off-kilter. My favourite so far was the NHLPA’s three counterproposals, which exposed the NHL to ridicule for doing their preplanned walkout after only 10 minutes.

Now that both sides have had the chance to try for positioning and style points, the next few days will see the hard bargaining where both sides have to compromise to hit the $3 billion jackpot, funded by us fans. In my opinion once the NHL opens up contractual changes to negotiation, the numbers look close enough to get there.

Some media points:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/178419261.html

... it might be healthier for the Big Four – Gary Bettman, Bill Daly and the Fehr Brothers, Don and Steve – to resume talks without players and owners in the room ...

Not having players in the room would play into the NHL hands.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/columnist/allen/2012/11/10/donald-fehr-column/1696377/

... This battle with players has been about the money from the beginning, and it will only be settled when the money is right ...

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2012/11/gloves-are-off-between-nhl-players-union.html

... It's a big game of chicken right now. What we wait to find out is this: did they weaken him, or just make Fehr's position stronger?

Watching a game of chicken, even if big, is not as fun as any hockey or football game.

 

[Crows*]

Some jarret stoll quotes.

Sorry it's mobile

http://mayorsmanor.com/2012/11/kings-jarret-stoll-opens-up-about-cba-talks-and-hes-depressed/


“Disappointed, based on how the mood was described to me by the guys who were at the meeting and in that room (during negotiations in New York this week). It wasn’t what we expected from two good days of bargaining and negotiating. Then, to have a day like this, guys were pretty disappointed. It’s kinda the same old story now. We’re not back to square one at all, but we’re searching and looking for a new solution, a new way – something to get some traction any way possible. It’s just not working out though, it’s just not happening. It seems like (the negotiations are) a game and that’s what’s disappointing.â€

“We all want to play, every one wants to play,†he explained. “That’s a no-brainer. But, guys want to be involved. The last lockout wasn’t even close to this, in terms of players knowing what’s going on – being involved, being on the calls, going to New York, going to Toronto. Guys know what’s going on this time. That’s what’s very disappointing, we all realize now what’s happening.â€

“A guy like Brad Richards (New York Rangers), he was there today. He said on the call, straight-out, it was a great experience for him to go there and see that. But, it was also a very disappointing one from his point of view.â€


“I wanted to see what his mood was,†Stoll shared. “You could tell in his voice he was pretty down – tired, long days and long days of not getting much accomplished.â€

“They’re going to say we’re not negotiating and we’re not being good negotiating partners and we’re going to say the opposite. Again, it’s a game. And it’s pretty sad though that it’s turned out to be a game like that.â€


“We’re close in some areas. We’re almost there in some areas. But then there’s a lot of other areas where there’s no negotiating, there’s no chance to move on anything. That’s not what negotiating is, I don’t think. It’s give and take. We understand we have to gie and we’re going to give a lot. There’s no question. But, in my mind, it doesn’t seem like we need to get taken advantage of either. In a way, that’s just not right.â€

 

[CN_paladin]

"The December 15th deadline imposed by the NHL is just another artificial deadline. The players only want to play, and an agreement which will honor contracts to the cent is a fair price that the NHL is unwilling come to terms with. An 82 game schedule is still possible to this day, but the NHL has proven that its only answer to negotiation is to shut out all willing parties."

- Signed
The guy who's killing hockey.

Fehr's got no other end game than to hold his fort till the NHL concedes first. Last time Goodenow tried that, his tactics made fans lose a season for nothing.

Bettman's biggest incentive to get a deal done ASAP is 8 million dollars.

What's Fehr's incentive?

 

[MrNasty]

What is ironic is that there are many teams that are saving money by not playing.

Also, another thing I find ironic is the people complaining that the NHL's forst offer was such a low ball offer. Well if the end result was to be 50/50 then they were the same distance from that as the PA.

 

[NinthSpoke06]

http://mayorsmanor.com/2012/11/kings-jarret-stoll-opens-up-about-cba-talks-and-hes-depressed/

Originally Posted by Jarret Stoll
“They’re going to say we’re not negotiating and we’re not being good negotiating partners and we’re going to say the opposite. Again, it’s a game. And it’s pretty sad though that it’s turned out to be a game like that.”

Here is a ****ing idea Jarret....how bout you tell you ****ing boss to stop playing that game. Pretty damn ****ing simple.

 

[Bruins71*]

I think Fehr legitimately has the players brainwashed, it's actually kind of sad...

 

[shmglsky]

I would try to negotiate for one more week but if the PA is still playing games then I would support your position, enough is enough.

So, you would rather have the players play the Gary Bettman game?

To date, the NHL has made zero concessions, only lessened their demands. Actual concessions would be agreeing to Sochi participation, giving players a say where franchises are located--which is greatly needed as the owners need help in this regard.

Players have the right not to agree to a subpar contract, especially one that is not bargained in good faith, just as surely the owners have the right to cancel the whole season, which opens a whole different set of circumstances. But I'm beginning to think that might be the best thing for the league. We would be playing hockey right if it wasn't for the Phoenixs, Nashvilles, and the Floridas of the NHL. There are smart people involved in this and the fact is not even 50-50 will save them. Unless there is adequate revenue sharing from the owners' proposal, which there is not, it's better for the players to hold out. Otherwise, we're back here in 6-8 years. And who wants to go through this again?

 

[Motown Beatdown]

Renaud P Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS

A small number of NHLPA / NHL informal lunch meeting is taking place right now in NY.

 

[KingBogo]

Mathieu Darche‏@matdarche52

Those reports that PA is withholding info is the most ridiculous rumour/accusation of this whole process. PA couldn't be more transparent.

Of course my 6 year old thinks I'm being transparent about the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

james mirtle (from the globe) is going to be on 1050 after the break: http://www.tsn.ca/toronto/listen/

 

[Motown Beatdown]

Michael Grange ‏@michaelgrange

Still no word on a meeting; but Steve Fehr, Bill Daly and a small gathering of #NHLPA and #NHL are having an informal lunch.

 

[Kopistar]

The thing that bugs me is this whole time the players have said "We just want to play" "Why are we locked out, we could negotiate in good faith"

Here's the thing PA...... Donald Fehr IS Lockouts. It's what he does. The SECOND you hired him, you KNEW there was going to be a lockout.

They really need to stop with the "feel sorry for us, we are just guys who wanna play hockey" bs. They knew all along there was going to be a lockout.

 

[Bruins71*]

Renaud P Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS

A small number of NHLPA / NHL informal lunch meeting is taking place right now in NY.

I think this will be the last contact we see for a month or so before they reconvene for a hail mary proposal from the PA in mid December which is then rejected, leading to the season being canceled.

Notie: please take notice of how my statement is prefaced with "I think".