Tribute Timothy Liljegren Part 3 - Everyone wants Flowers.

[zeke]

Why do people keep talking about analytics?

Holl is 1st or 2nd on the Leafs in all of +/-, hits, and blocks, plays all the toughest matchups, and has played more on the excellent PK this year than any other Leaf.

None of those are analytics.

 

[francis246]

I don't what this has to do with what you are quoting.

you said, "But the same people are dismissing the people's opinion who are actually in the game right now and are spending time with these players every day, looking at the video and in the press box or behind the bench every minute of any game."

basically my argument is that while analytics has made it's way into the game, most of the people who use analytics publicly or actually created analytics are twitter people, they aren't in the game.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Coaches use advanced stats to help them observe along side the eye test. Like I said advanced stats have a place in every sport but they often do not tell the full story and require a lot of context and additionally they are still developing, there’s still a lot of flaws with some of the stats. Furthermore most of the advance stats being put out there are coming from fans or people interested in hockey who are very smart and able to develop algorithms that can produce those stats. Those people are now starting to get scooped up by NHL teams. But a lot of the coaches in the NHL grew up in an era prior to it and they were not the ones inventing it.

I couldn't agree more. The Leafs used solely advanced stats during the early Matthews/Marner era and realized that stats alone will not lead to success. Hence, the decision to bring in players like Thornton, Spezza, Clifford, Simmonds, Foligno, and even Boosh because they realized the stats didn't tell the whole story. They needed "grit" and "intangibles", things that aren't measured on a spreadsheet.

In the end, respect people who have been in the game and have a knowledge beyond what you and your numbers may say. You may disagree with what they say and that's ok, but don't say that their opinions are invalid because they don't coincide with yours. Or ridicule and minimize what they say solely based on their name.

 

[kb]

Why do people keep talking about analytics?

Holl is 1st or 2nd on the Leafs in all of +/-, hits, and blocks, plays all the toughest matchups, and has played more on the excellent PK this year than any other Leaf.

None of those are analytics.

All stats that don't match with a poster's perception of a player (no matter which stat is in question) means the stat is flawed.

Ironic coming from the "eye test" and "feels" crowd......

 

[Deebo]

you said, "But the same people are dismissing the people's opinion who are actually in the game right now and are spending time with these players every day, looking at the video and in the press box or behind the bench every minute of any game."

basically my argument is that while analytics has made it's way into the game, most of the people who use analytics publicly or actually created analytics are twitter people, they aren't in the game.

I'm not talking about analytics.

The opinion that is being dismissed is Keefe and the coaching staff clearly see Holl as a top 4 dman and have him ahead of Lybushkin based on usage. But then they dismiss people who agree with Keefe and the coaching staff's opinion of Holl by quoting Carlo Colaiacovo or Craig Button.

They say people like that opinion matters more because they were in the game at the highest level while dismissing the opinion of those who are agreeing with Keefe who is the game at the highest level right now.

I'm not even taking a side on Holl here, I'm just pointing out the how the "Button was in the game so he knows better than you" argument makes no sense. Those who disagree can say "Keefe is in the game now so he knows better than you".

 

[CabanaBoy5]

I'm not talking about analytics.

The opinion that is being dismissed is Keefe and the coaching staff clearly see Holl as a top 4 dman and have him ahead of Lybushkin based on usage. But then they dismiss people who agree with Keefe and the coaching staff's opinion of Holl by quoting Carlo Colaiacovo or Craig Button.

They say people like that opinion matters more because they were in the game at the highest level while dismissing the opinion of those who are agreeing with Keefe who is the game at the highest level right now.

I'm not even taking a side on Holl here, I'm just pointing out the how the "Button was in the game so he knows better than you" argument makes no sense. Those who disagree can say "Keefe is in the game now so he knows better than you".

You're misinterpreting the entire point that started this. I don't care what your opinion is on Holl, we can agree to disagree. But, some people (who seem to think that analytics are the only thing that are valid in today's game) denigrate, poke fun at, and shame someone who is a respected analyst, a director of scouting for TSN, and been in management in the NHL. The best part, I get "shame on you" or invalidation of my opinion for agreeing with what Button said. Get off your high horses and listen to other people's opinions.

 

[Stephen]

I'm not talking about analytics.

The opinion that is being dismissed is Keefe and the coaching staff clearly see Holl as a top 4 dman and have him ahead of Lybushkin based on usage. But then they dismiss people who agree with Keefe and the coaching staff's opinion of Holl by quoting Carlo Colaiacovo or Craig Button.

They say people like that opinion matters more because they were in the game at the highest level while dismissing the opinion of those who are agreeing with Keefe who is the game at the highest level right now.

I'm not even taking a side on Holl here, I'm just pointing out the how the "Button was in the game so he knows better than you" argument makes no sense. Those who disagree can say "Keefe is in the game now so he knows better than you".

The other, other angle to consider here is Holl has been a healthy scratch for a number of games this season by the Keefe staff. So his status as a top 4 defenseman has isn't etched in stone. But I think the organization is obviously invested in him being that functional piece and will go back to the well on him and they'll invest him making him right and will live with the trash defense he can bring game to game.

 

[Deebo]

You're misinterpreting the entire point that started this. I don't care what your opinion is on Holl, we can agree to disagree. But, some people (who seem to think that analytics are the only thing that are valid in today's game) denigrate, poke fun at, and shame someone who is a respected analyst, a director of scouting for TSN, and been in management in the NHL. The best part, I get "shame on you" or invalidation of my opinion for agreeing with what Button said. Get off your high horses and listen to other people's opinions.

That is no different than those who think thier junior hockey expierence from 20 years ago make thier opinions infalliable and call anyone who even brings up a stat other goals, assists, hits or +/- a nerd in their mom's basement or something.

 

[Apex Predator]

That is no different than those who think thier junior hockey expierence from 20 years ago make thier opinions infalliable and call anyone who even brings up a stat other goals, assists, hits or +/- a nerd in their mom's basement or something.

Why is it nerd in moms basement? Can be regular Joe in moms basement. There are nerds living at their own place or renting. Average Joe’s also live in parents basements.

 

[francis246]

That is no different than those who think thier junior hockey expierence from 20 years ago make thier opinions infalliable and call anyone who even brings up a stat other goals, assists, hits or +/- a nerd in their mom's basement or something.

I don’t really care about junior hockey guys. I’m mainly talking about people who have been involved in the NHL. I do think there is a difference. The key difference is that they actually understand beyond stats what it takes to be successful. People who just post analytics and have never played in the NHL or have no experience in player development/upper management cannot bring that point of view. (In terms of intangibles, other things players need to be successful)

That is why I don’t get all this Carlo hate, people forget Carlo was one of the best prospects in our system at one point. Made the team as an 18/19 year old and was also a 17th overall pick just like Liljegren. I don’t think he picks on Liljegren to pick on him, he points out things that he sees that may be affecting his overall play because he’s been in those situations. I’m more inclined to hear the perspective of someone who’s been on the ice and has done it as opposed to someone who is just throwing up stats and has not actually been in game situations. It’s great to have former players hosting radio shows and be analysts because they pick up on the little things that many fans see as “hate” but in reality those things are probably the same little mistakes their coaches were hammering them for when they played.

Hell we see it in Toronto, every year we have amazing stats and advanced stats yet it never translates in the playoffs. There’s a piece missing, which is why I don’t put everything into advanced stats. It means nothing come playoff time.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

You were missed tonight.

 

[Deebo]

I don’t really care about junior hockey guys.

Well I was comparing the stats only guys to the junior hockey guys in the post you quoted.

If you don't care, then you don't have to respond.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Analytics have nothing to do with you not being able to tell that Holl is a good skater.

That's right .. look I don't want to beat this to death but everyone around team in terms of players/parents etc already know Holl is a terrible skater .. all you have to do is watch camp and/or practice and hockey people who have played and lived around rinks their whole lives get it instantly .. but there is an element of these same people who say he plays because his advanced stats look very very good in games .. Dubie is in this camp (and likely you too) .. I am not .. and it is not just because Holl made it up through Leaf ranks and my kid didn't (although it did p*ss me off for some time although I'm over it now) .. now I still think he can play a limited role as insurance as a 7th/8th guy but I stand firm that a guy who can't keep up at an NHL level (skates at an average aHL level) should not dress in playoffs when we have better options .. and we can agree to disagree that is fine

 

[Deebo]

That's right .. look I don't want to beat this to death but everyone around team in terms of players/parents etc already know Holl is a terrible skater .. all you have to do is watch camp and/or practice and hockey people who have played and lived around rinks their whole lives get it instantly .. but there is an element of these same people who say he plays because his advanced stats look very very good in games .. Dubie is in this camp (and likely you too) .. I am not .. and it is not just because Holl made it up through Leaf ranks and my kid didn't (although it did p*ss me off for some time although I'm over it now) .. now I still think he can play a limited role as insurance as a 7th/8th guy but I stand firm that a guy who can't keep up at an NHL level (skates at an average aHL level) should not dress in playoffs when we have better options .. and we can agree to disagree that is fine

It doesn't sound like you are over it.

 

[Apex Predator]

That's right .. look I don't want to beat this to death but everyone around team in terms of players/parents etc already know Holl is a terrible skater .. all you have to do is watch camp and/or practice and hockey people who have played and lived around rinks their whole lives get it instantly .. but there is an element of these same people who say he plays because his advanced stats look very very good in games .. Dubie is in this camp (and likely you too) .. I am not .. and it is not just because Holl made it up through Leaf ranks and my kid didn't (although it did p*ss me off for some time although I'm over it now) .. now I still think he can play a limited role as insurance as a 7th/8th guy but I stand firm that a guy who can't keep up at an NHL level (skates at an average aHL level) should not dress in playoffs when we have better options .. and we can agree to disagree that is fine

Who was your kid? That’s kind of wild you had a kid in the Leafs system!

 

[Sypher04]

That's right .. look I don't want to beat this to death but everyone around team in terms of players/parents etc already know Holl is a terrible skater .. all you have to do is watch camp and/or practice and hockey people who have played and lived around rinks their whole lives get it instantly .. but there is an element of these same people who say he plays because his advanced stats look very very good in games .. Dubie is in this camp (and likely you too) .. I am not .. and it is not just because Holl made it up through Leaf ranks and my kid didn't (although it did p*ss me off for some time although I'm over it now) .. now I still think he can play a limited role as insurance as a 7th/8th guy but I stand firm that a guy who can't keep up at an NHL level (skates at an average aHL level) should not dress in playoffs when we have better options .. and we can agree to disagree that is fine

Oh it’s make believe inside knowledge of the Maple Leafs organization and NHLers story time again. It must be a day that ends in y.

 

[Sypher04]

Who was your kid? That’s kind of wild you had a get in the Leafs system!

Reality is he most likely didn’t.

 

[The Podium]

That's right .. look I don't want to beat this to death but everyone around team in terms of players/parents etc already know Holl is a terrible skater .. all you have to do is watch camp and/or practice and hockey people who have played and lived around rinks their whole lives get it instantly .. but there is an element of these same people who say he plays because his advanced stats look very very good in games .. Dubie is in this camp (and likely you too) .. I am not .. and it is not just because Holl made it up through Leaf ranks and my kid didn't (although it did p*ss me off for some time although I'm over it now) .. now I still think he can play a limited role as insurance as a 7th/8th guy but I stand firm that a guy who can't keep up at an NHL level (skates at an average aHL level) should not dress in playoffs when we have better options .. and we can agree to disagree that is fine

Lmao it all makes sense now. Your kid didn’t make it and you’re bitter. Is that why you think you know better than everyone? Because your kid got a game in with the Orlando Solar Bears at some point.

 

[Apex Predator]

Reality is he most likely didn’t.

Yeah probably but you never know. Doesn’t hurt to ask wasn’t expecting a reply back.

Also I hate auto correct on my phone. Makes all my sentences sound like I’m illiterate.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Lmao it all makes sense now. Your kid didn’t make it and you’re bitter. Is that why you think you know better than everyone? Because your kid got a game in with the Orlando Solar Bears at some point.

You may be right a little .. it is a very very tough grind to make da show .. my dad was a Marlie captain and was only able to play in Hershey .. I was a Marlie captain and only played in Indi (I) .. and 1 of my 2 kids was a Marlie captain and is still playing in A and other tapped out in ECHL and then 2 years in Swiss league .. growing up in hockey and training from time you are 6 until you are in your mid to late 20s and then dream dies .. it is very tough .. but it is da reality for da vast majority of people in hockey .. it is only da rare exceptions that make da show which is why I tell everyone to stay in school and focus on what you are gonna do next

 

[The Podium]

You may be right a little .. it is a very very tough grind to make da show .. my dad was a Marlie captain and was only able to play in Hershey .. I was a Marlie captain and only played in Indi (I) .. and 1 of my 2 kids was a Marlie captain and is still playing in A and other tapped out in ECHL and then 2 years in Swiss league .. growing up in hockey and training from time you are 6 until you are in your mid to late 20s and then dream dies .. it is very tough .. but it is da reality for da vast majority of people in hockey .. it is only da rare exceptions that make da show which is why I tell everyone to stay in school and focus on what you are gonna do next

You’re talking to people on a hockey forum. The majority here probably played some level of hockey. You’re not the only one who has made it, or whose family made it, to a mid-tier amateur level.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Why do people keep talking about analytics?

Holl is 1st or 2nd on the Leafs in all of +/-, hits, and blocks, plays all the toughest matchups, and has played more on the excellent PK this year than any other Leaf.

None of those are analytics.

Holl had a pretty rough start so I think that got burned jnto peoples memories a little

 

[JT AM da real deal]

You’re talking to people on a hockey forum. The majority here probably played some level of hockey. You’re not the only one who has made it, or whose family made it, to a mid-tier amateur level.

Exactly at some point you have to give up on da dream .. making 70K a year playing in A or Swiss league does not cut it .. and this is where da kids who were top 5 in their age group in GTA mostly die on da vine

 

[mydnyte]

So you're gonna blame Holl for powerplay goals against? Hockey's obsession with grit and physicality to rank worse players that have it over much better players who play a "soft" game (I don't consider Holl soft) is compulsive.

Bush is a decent #6. Holl is a solid #3 or a high end #4. The fact anyone is begging Keefe to take Holl out for Bush is a mess.

Holl is a giveaway machine, and when i'm talking about physicality, i'm not talking about plowing people, i'm talking about being able to outmuscle a guy along the boards, or contain one in front of the net, and those are 2 of Holl's weakest points. he gets outmuscled all over the place, and is also a giveaway machine... Rielly and Brodie are higher, but, they have a bunch more icetime. (Muzzin may be worse though)

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

#FreeLily