Tribute Timothy Liljegren Part 3 - Everyone wants Flowers.

[Tufted Titmouse]

If I am being completely honest with myself and putting emotions aside, my depth chart for Game 1 of the playoffs would be the below. The pairing would probably be Mo-Boosh, Gio-Lilly, Muzz-Brodie unless Sandin is healthy.

Rielly	Brodie
Giordano	Liljegren
Sandin	Boosch
Muzzin	Holl

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Holl is a solid #3? I respectfully disagree as do many respected hockey people. Just today on Leafs Lunch Craig Button said Holl shouldn't be in our top 6 starting the playoffs. So top 3 or high end 4 only on a Keefe coached team, not a Stanley Cup contending team.

Holl can't skate .. bottom line you have to be able to skate at da NHL level to play .. I don't care what his super analytics are .. every hockey player I know all say same thing - he can't skate .. da spreadsheet guys on here become very very obvious on Holl .. much like they were on Marty .. like I am telling you guys super analytics are in EARLY developmental stages and for D they are almost useless

 

[CabanaBoy5]

No offense but if Craig Button says something, Leafs should do the opposite

And here come the Craig Button haters. I mentioned him because he was the "insider/expert" on today's show. So your dislike for a hockey lifer like Button makes his opinion worthless? I don't always agree with Button but I do on this. Holl has too many palm to the forehead plays to think he should be anywhere but bottom pair or out entirely. The topic was brought up because Al's brother and Julia were perplexed as to why Holl was playing tonight (as many others in Leafs Nation).

 

[Morgs]

And here come the Craig Button haters. I mentioned him because he was the "insider/expert" on today's show. So your dislike for a hockey lifer like Button makes his opinion worthless? I don't always agree with Button but I do on this. Holl has too many palm to the forehead plays to think he should be anywhere but bottom pair or out entirely. The topic was brought up because Al's brother and Julia were perplexed as to why Holl was playing tonight (as many others in Leafs Nation).

I've seen 3 posts of yours and all three have been "palm to forehead".

 

[zeke]

Holl can't skate .. bottom line you have to be able to skate at da NHL level to play .. I don't care what his super analytics are .. every hockey player I know all say same thing - he can't skate .. da spreadsheet guys on here become very very obvious on Holl .. much like they were on Marty .. like I am telling you guys super analytics are in EARLY developmental stages and for D they are almost useless

Holl is a much better skater than either Muzz or Boosh, and is faster than Gio and Sandin too.

 

[Nylanderthal]

If someone’s reasoning for Holl being bad is that he can’t skate it’s pretty obvious they’re not watching or paying attention. He’s not a burner, but as other have mentioned there are much worse skaters on this blue line who get exposed for it a lot more than Justin does. For me, it’s when he extends his game too much and tries to do too much out there. When he keeps it simple he’s really effective.
If you’re referencing Julia tocheri, “Al’s Brother” or Craig button as respected sources then shame on you

 

[CabanaBoy5]

If someone’s reasoning for Holl being bad is that he can’t skate it’s pretty obvious they’re not watching or paying attention. He’s not a burner, but as other have mentioned there are much worse skaters on this blue line who get exposed for it a lot more than Justin does. For me, it’s when he extends his game too much and tries to do too much out there. When he keeps it simple he’s really effective.
If you’re referencing Julia tocheri, “Al’s Brother” or Craig button as respected sources then shame on you

I didn't refer to Al's brother or Julia as respected sources, I was referring to Button. You and a couple of others on here, may not respect Button but he is a hockey analyst for TSN (who do hockey right btw), TSN's Director of Scouting and a former National Hockey League (NHL) executive. What is on your resume that would make your opinion any more valid than his? Shame on you my friend for being so close-minded.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Holl is a much better skater than either Muzz or Boosh, and is faster than Gio and Sandin too.

Wrong .. just flat out not true .. his times goal line to goal line are only a slight bit faster then Sandin .. Gio and Boosh have not gone through MLSE camp testing so I don't know for sure .. but Muzzy beats him by a long long way .. Holl and Sandin are BY FAR 2 slowest Leaf defenders

 

[zeke]

Wrong .. just flat out not true .. his times goal line to goal line are only a slight bit faster then Sandin .. Gio and Boosh have not gone through MLSE camp testing so I don't know for sure .. but Muzzy beats him by a long long way .. Holl and Sandin are BY FAR 2 slowest Leaf defenders

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

I don't love Holl, but he shouldn't be getting the blame in this thread. He looked perfectly fine while Muzz was out. Not sure I have him in if Sandin's healthy.

I would have Lily in either way.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

So you're gonna blame Holl for powerplay goals against? Hockey's obsession with grit and physicality to rank worse players that have it over much better players who play a "soft" game (I don't consider Holl soft) is compulsive.

Bush is a decent #6. Holl is a solid #3 or a high end #4. The fact anyone is begging Keefe to take Holl out for Bush is a mess.

Holl is a solid #3? And my posts are "palm to the forehead"? Pot meet kettle.

 

[Morgs]

Holl is a solid #3? And my posts are "palm to the forehead"? Pot meet kettle.

Mines based on research, data, and reality. Yours is based on your eyes and Craig Button.

Just take the L dude

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Let's get back on topic. Lily has made great strides playing with Gio. At this time, I'd rather see Lily in the lineup than Holl. People can disagree which is ok, but I've seen enough of Holl to know what he is. I want to see more of Lily.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Mines based on research, data, and reality. Yours is based on your eyes and Craig Button.

Just take the L dude

Dude, I will always respect the opinion of someone like Button over yours and your research/data/virtual reality when it comes to Holl.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

It is one of reasons why Dubie will be fired soon along with Shanny .. after team is knocked out again in round 1 .. analytics/spreadsheet guys should be complimentary pieces on a team giving drafting advice where they can on recruiting to hockey people who have played da game .. Zeke if you were on boards with guys like stuey and me watching these guys go through paces in camp you would really be shocked on what you saw .. but most of you guys can't because you never played jr/pro and your kids are not playing pro so bottom line you just will never get to see what is really going on because you won't get a spot on da glass

 

[Gabriel426]

I think Keefe is trying out to see who are his d-core for the playoffs.
Reilly, TJ, Gio and Muzz(unless he is not even close to 100%) are locks.
Boosh, Lilly, and Holl are fighting out the final 2 spots. Currently, I think Lilly got the edge over Holl and Boosh.

 

[francis246]

Dude, I will always respect the opinion of someone like Button over yours and your research/data/virtual reality when it comes to Holl.

Exactly, these stats boys, don’t realize that people like Carlo, Craig Button and others they choose to hate on, have been in the game at the highest level. There is an understanding of the game that they have that many people don’t. Posting advance stats from moms basement has a place but it doesn’t triumph the eye test or having been directly involved in hockey. Many important things needed to win do not show on advanced stats

 

[francis246]

[Leafs Links] Craig Button on Timothy Liljegren: "Somebody that is going to have a good, long NHL career"

Some links to scratch the hockey itch this August long weekend. Leafs Links Button: Timothy Liljegren is a talented defenceman (TSN1050) TSN Resident Scout and General Manager Craig Button joined Andy McNamara to break down the World Junior Summer Showcase on TSN and discussed Timothy Liljegren...

mapleleafshotstove.com

Button on the Liljegren pick right after the draft. He was pretty spot on.

 

[stickty111]

Dude, I will always respect the opinion of someone like Button over yours and your research/data/virtual reality when it comes to Holl.

Research, data and facts are more reliable than Button.
If we listened to Button, Leafs would still be stuck in the Dave Nonis era.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Exactly, these stats boys, don’t realize that people like Carlo, Craig Button and others they choose to hate on, have been in the game at the highest level. There is an understanding of the game that they have that many people don’t. Posting advance stats from moms basement has a place but it doesn’t triumph the eye test or having been directly involved in hockey. Many important things needed to win do not show on advanced stats

There is a reason why Craig is no longer employed in the NHL.

Some people have bad eyes, so I'm more inclined to believe tangible data from mom's basement than the eye test from mom's basement when it comes to evaluating a situation.

 

[Deebo]

There is a reason why Craig is no longer employed in the NHL.

Some people have bad eyes, so I'm more inclined to believe tangible data from mom's basement than the eye test from mom's basement when it comes to evaluating a situation.

These people will go on about how the opinions of people who used to be in the game or them who played jr are more valuable than whatever lame insult they use to desribe people they disagree with.

But the same people are dismissing the people's opinion who are actually in the game right now and are spending time with these players every day, looking at the video and in the press box or behind the bench every minute of any game.

 

[francis246]

There is a reason why Craig is no longer employed in the NHL.

Some people have bad eyes, so I'm more inclined to believe tangible data from mom's basement than the eye test from mom's basement when it comes to evaluating a situation.

Button has one of the best analyst jobs out there. Why would he give that up? Trust me Button could probably be an advisor or a scout if he wanted to. His resume in terms of drafting, developing, and supplementing farm teams is among the best out there. Of course he made some really bad moves as a GM, but every GM has moves they wish they could take back. But him being out of the NHL is probably more due to comfort and flexibility as opposed to not finding a job.

 

[francis246]

These people will go on about how the opinions of people who used to be in the game or them who played jr are more valuable than whatever lame insult they use to desribe people they disagree with.

But the same people are dismissing the people's opinion who are actually in the game right now and are spending time with these players every day, looking at the video and in the press box or behind the bench every minute of any game.

Coaches use advanced stats to help them observe along side the eye test. Like I said advanced stats have a place in every sport but they often do not tell the full story and require a lot of context and additionally they are still developing, there’s still a lot of flaws with some of the stats. Furthermore most of the advance stats being put out there are coming from fans or people interested in hockey who are very smart and able to develop algorithms that can produce those stats. Those people are now starting to get scooped up by NHL teams. But a lot of the coaches in the NHL grew up in an era prior to it and they were not the ones inventing it.

 

[zeke]

It is one of reasons why Dubie will be fired soon along with Shanny .. after team is knocked out again in round 1 .. analytics/spreadsheet guys should be complimentary pieces on a team giving drafting advice where they can on recruiting to hockey people who have played da game .. Zeke if you were on boards with guys like stuey and me watching these guys go through paces in camp you would really be shocked on what you saw .. but most of you guys can't because you never played jr/pro and your kids are not playing pro so bottom line you just will never get to see what is really going on because you won't get a spot on da glass

Analytics have nothing to do with you not being able to tell that Holl is a good skater.

 

[Deebo]

Coaches use advanced stats to help them observe along side the eye test. Like I said advanced stats have a place in every sport but they often do not tell the full story and require a lot of context and additionally they are still developing, there’s still a lot of flaws with some of the stats. Furthermore most of the advance stats being put out there are coming from fans or people interested in hockey who are very smart and able to develop algorithms that can produce those stats. Those people are now starting to get scooped up by NHL teams. But a lot of the coaches in the NHL grew up in an era prior to it and they were not the ones inventing it.

I don't what this has to do with what you are quoting.