tikhonov, gainey, best all-around player?

[thefifthsedin*]

'i consider [bob] gainey the world's best all-around player' - soviet national team coach viktor tikhonov in 1981

this is a somewhat classic modern day hockey statement. can we dig within it a little, perhaps?. i want to know more about why he said it. or perhaps ... more about the coherence surrounding it. as a matter of fact, montreal canadiens official site says tikhonov said that gainey was 'technically the best player in the world' ... here http://ourhistory.canadiens.com/player/Bob-Gainey

i can see a clear difference in all-round and technically. in what language did tikhonov say this?, who did he say it to?

according to the official story it's from the following of the 1981 canada cup. the soviet team won that tournament, beating canada [with gretzky, bossy, lafleur, perreault, bourque, dionne, robinson, gainey, sittler, trottier, gillies, potvin ... ] in the final game with a score of 8-1 [known popularly as the 'montreal massacre'] ... canada had earlier in the same tournament won the group stage game between the two teams with 7-3 and was expected by most experts to win also the final

i must tell that this statement by tikhonov regarding gainey, to me, sounds a little like something a coach of an opposite team says out of respect for the other team or its players, more than it being a universally accepted truth. or even a strong personal view ... [although it's far from impossible that tikhonov really had a major crush on gainey's ice hockey skills ... ]

1981 was the year gainey put up his best regular season offensively with his nhl club, the montreal canadiens. that reads 23 goals and 24 assists for 47 points in 78 games. that's his offensive mount everest. this is by a player touted to be 'the best all-round player in the world' by a legendary coach ...

best forward defensively in the world at the time? sure, i can take that. that some people considered him to be the best forward defensively when he was at his best. but best all-round?. doesn't all-round mean that you provide as good at both ends of the ice?.

see, how hard is it to be a great forward defensively if you spend 90 per cent of your ice time in your own goalies crease?, sitting in his lap?

high scoring forwards are more than less criticized for being liabilities on the other end of the ice. but what about defensive specialist players being liabilities offensively?. it would be interesting to hear if there's any examples of such cases ...

Click to read more...

 

[reckoning]

The quote was actually made in 1979 when Tikhonov came over from Russia to observe the Stanley Cup Final between Montreal and the Rangers. That was the year Bob Gainey won the Conn Smythe and was probably the best series he ever played. He shut down the Rangers top line and chipped in quite a bit offensively; so he wasn't just a defensive specialist. He was the best player in that series, so Tikhonov calling him the best after seeing it wouldn't seem that unusual.

What he actually said is debatable. I've seen it referenced as "the most technically perfect player", "the most complete player" and "the best all-around player". Something has obviously been distorted since then; there's a big difference between being "the most technically perfect player" and "the best all-around player". To my knowledge Tikhonov didn't speak English, so it may have been a translation issue. We also don't know how much of it may have been a hyperbolic "caught up in the moment" speech, or how much NHL hockey Tikhonov had seen before that to compare Gainey's play to.

http://canadiens.nhl.com/team/app?articleid=336696&page=NewsPage&service=page


“If it wasn’t for Don Cherry and the Bruins getting us that power play and if Guy Lafleur doesn’t score that goal, we would have never even reached the Stanley Cup finals in 1979. And I would have never gotten that quote from Tikhonov,†smiled Gainey. “I’ve sure gotten a lot of mileage from that quote. I should really give Don a call to thank him.â€

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bob Gainey

Reckoning is correct about the year - 1979 and the context of the quote.

I always to the quote to mean that Bob Gainey is the type of player that Soviet should aim at producing by taking Gainey's skating, defensive talents plus disciplined physicality and incorporating them with the Soviet style offensive skills to produce players approaching an abstract ideal forward.

 

[thefifthsedin*]

The quote was actually made in 1979 when Tikhonov came over from Russia to observe the Stanley Cup Final between Montreal and the Rangers. That was the year Bob Gainey won the Conn Smythe and was probably the best series he ever played. He shut down the Rangers top line and chipped in quite a bit offensively; so he wasn't just a defensive specialist. He was the best player in that series, so Tikhonov calling him the best after seeing it wouldn't seem that unusual.

yes, he did manage to deliver offensively in that specific series ... but over 16 seasons in the nhl he never scored more than 47 points, and he was a forward. so i would definitely call him a defensive only specialist.

 

[tommygunn]

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=585189

 

[Trottier]

Neither.

In that time period, Bryan Trottier was voted by GMs as the best all-around player in the game.

Few following the NHL at the time would have bothered to argue.

 

[Big Phil]

He HAS gotten a lot of mileage out of that quote. Don't get me wrong he was a very, very good player at that time and a very valuable one to the Habs. I don't think any GM in the world would have taken Gainey over the likes of Lafleur, Trottier or Bossy at the time though considering it was 1979. But at the time of the NHL playoffs (I always thought it was the Challenge Cup in 1979) Gainey was playing at his best so it can be a heat of the moment comment

 

[VMBM]

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=585189

Beat me to it.

 

[Sens Rule]

The quote was actually made in 1979 when Tikhonov came over from Russia to observe the Stanley Cup Final between Montreal and the Rangers. That was the year Bob Gainey won the Conn Smythe and was probably the best series he ever played. He shut down the Rangers top line and chipped in quite a bit offensively; so he wasn't just a defensive specialist. He was the best player in that series, so Tikhonov calling him the best after seeing it wouldn't seem that unusual.

What he actually said is debatable. I've seen it referenced as "the most technically perfect player", "the most complete player" and "the best all-around player". Something has obviously been distorted since then; there's a big difference between being "the most technically perfect player" and "the best all-around player". To my knowledge Tikhonov didn't speak English, so it may have been a translation issue. We also don't know how much of it may have been a hyperbolic "caught up in the moment" speech, or how much NHL hockey Tikhonov had seen before that to compare Gainey's play to.

http://canadiens.nhl.com/team/app?articleid=336696&page=NewsPage&service=page


“If it wasn’t for Don Cherry and the Bruins getting us that power play and if Guy Lafleur doesn’t score that goal, we would have never even reached the Stanley Cup finals in 1979. And I would have never gotten that quote from Tikhonov,†smiled Gainey. “I’ve sure gotten a lot of mileage from that quote. I should really give Don a call to thank him.â€

Never knew he said that after the 79 final not the 81 Can Cup. Makes more sense.

I sm sure he was thinking Gainey is the kind of player I want all of the non-mega talented players on my team to play like. Surely he never thought Gainey was better than Makarov or Gretzky or something... but some I think took the quote that way.

 

[Sens Rule]

Hmmm thinking... as a Sens fan. Pahllsson in the 2007 final was Gainey like Tikanhov saw him in my eyes. All playoffs and especially in the playoffs Pahlsson dominated... in a massive way. He scored he was physical and he was along with his line an indomitable force.

It is not hard from a small sample for a player like Gainey or Pahlsson to go from being an amazingly good depth player to the best player for several games.

I would have voted Pahlsson for the Conn Smythe and I am sure he was considered.

Clearly I am not as knowledgable or even remotely close to Tikanov. But you watch Moen Pahlsson and Niedermeyer dominate an entire playoffs and the final and they look really freaking good. Gainey was good for a long time.. many seasons. He was not nearly as good as Lafleur but for short periods he could be nearly as valauable.

That is the thing in hockey. It might not happen as often as an offensive player or a defenceman dominates.... but sometimes a guy like Pahlsson comes out and for 20 games or a series is just that dominant... shuts down a real top line while also outscoring them. Physically dominates them and also plays 20 mins a night and is so good on the PK that the other team can't get a PP going. Is a third line centre in name only because he in reality is your first or second centre (or wing) in ice time because he is line matching the other teams best line and also on the first PK.

I guess I am thinking it makes sense because I thought that quote came from 1981 in 1979 Gainey had a Pahlsson like final... and playoff run.

 

[thefifthsedin*]

Even if they did say it, everyone knows it's false. How many times has Gretzky called a player the best or most skilled player he's ever played with ?

yes, players and coaches says stuff like this all the time.

gretzky supposedly said that kent nilsson was the 'most talented player he ever played with'. that may be true, nilsson was ridiculously talented but also lazy and not the most competitive to take on the ice. but he actually may have been, at the time gretzky said it, the most talented player gretzky himself had played with ... it's perhaps a matter of defintion, as everything else ...

People actually started to believe it after the Russians said it.

i've always figured it may have been a tactical statement to put pressure on the canadians for comming international tournament meetings between the two teams, like the 1981 canada cup for example. tikhonov himself coached a new high touted talent in that tournament, a centre [wasn't gainey a left wing?] named igor larionov. tikhonov may, or may not, have incorprated a little bit of gainey's defensive skills in some of his own coaching or player development program.

To be honest, from that era, I'd rate Trottier, Potvin and Clarke as much more complete players than Gainey. Gainey might have been better defensively by a bit, but offensively those guys killed him. From the Habs end, I'd rate Jacques Lemaire and Robinson as a more complete players than Gainey in 1979. I respect Tikhonov's opinion, but I really don't see the basis for it. I really have to wonder whether something was lost in the translation.

most, if not all, high profiled forwards, at the time as well as later on, did outscore him offensively, so you can even make a case that a player like igor larionov went on to 'kill him offensively'. maybe not in goalscoring but larionov became several dimensions better as an offensive playmaker ...

Hey, Gainey was really good at what he did. Maybe the best checking line player I've seen. But in terms of being the best player in the world or the most complete, he isn't close to guys like Trots, Clarke, Potvin or Robinson of that era. I saw them all and I was a fan of Gainey, but it would be like saying Jeri Lehtinen is better or a more complete player than Peter Forsberg or Nik Lidstrom at their peaks.

a difference between bob gainey and jere lehtinen is that lehtinen put up a slightly better offensive game. he scored 2 30+ goals seasons [33, 31] against gainey's 0 and 7 20+ goals seasons [33, 31, 26, 25, 23, 20, 20] against gainey's 4 [23, 21, 20, 20] and when the dallas stars won its only stanley cup to this day, in 98-99, lehtinen scored 10 playoff goals in 23 games. lehtinen also was a ppg player when he played for tps turku in the finnish first league [although it was mainly due to the fact that he played on the same line as the severely underrated saku koivu ... ]

How good was Gainey?

He was so good that the league had to create an award to honour complete forwards like him!

but the thing is, per definiton, that the frank j selke award isn't given to the most complete forward in the league. it's given to the best considered defensive forward in the league.

being great defensively doesn't automatically make you a great complete player. it's like saying pavel bure or teemu selänne or brett hull was great complete players for the things put up by them offensively.

we all know that bure, selänne and hull lacked a great, or even a solid, defensive game ... the thing is that gainey never was a great offensive threath. on few occasions, like during the 1979 stanley cup playoffs, he managed to put up good offensive numbers, but that doesn't make him the most complete player to have ever played the game ...

ron hextall was very good offensively for being a goalie, and skilled around and outside his own crease. but the league didn't introduce the 'ron hextall goalie aggressiveness, rare goals and secondary assists award'. it would maybe have been a little too much. as a player you, and probably even the fellow players and coaches around you [perhaps even including the fans here], know what you do without you being handed an yearly award for it every now and then.

It's funny how one-dimensional offensive aces are incomplete, but one-dimensional defensive aces are complete players.

that is quite funny

 

[ck26]

Neither.

In that time period, Bryan Trottier was voted by GMs as the best all-around player in the game.

Few following the NHL at the time would have bothered to argue.

This.

Agree with the previous post that Gainey was exactly the kind of player the Soviet system demanded; amazing skater, good size, very intelligent and well-rounded. I don't know if Bryan Trottier passes the eye-test (he certainly didn't "wow" you with a first impression the way Gainey or teammate Bossy would), but he was everything Gainey was, and more.

I've always been fascinated by quotes like these, and wanted to do a project where I looked at a) who NHL players idolized as kids, b) who sports broadcasters call "the best[something]" and to hear interviews from old-timers about which modern guys impress them the most.

I'd imagine that childhood idols are disproportionately skilled, flashy players (I always hear Pat Lafontaine singled out by younger Americans), that most coaches prefer an all-around player to a one-dimensional guy (the Tikhonov quote), that broadcasters disproportionately praise players on championship teams (Crosby > Ovechkin), and that the views of old-timers are skewed to players from their former team who played a similar style that they did (Ted Lindsay praising Vlad Konstantinov).

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

Neither.

In that time period, Bryan Trottier was voted by GMs as the best all-around player in the game.

Few following the NHL at the time would have bothered to argue.

Going to have to agree here with Potvin and Clarke 2-3

 

[dcinroc]

The thing about Bob Gainey is that he wasn't really just a defensive specialist, though he became so toward the end of his career as he slowed.

During the dynasty years, Gainey probably logged more ice-time than any other forward besides Lafleur. He was an excellent forechecker and great at creating turnovers which the more skilled players could turn into points. He was also great at creating space around the net, which is why he was often double-shifted with Lafleur. He could be a real pest without putting his team in trouble with penalties.

IMO, Gainey could have been one of the all-time greats. The problem was that he had hands of stone. He could skate, hit (along the boards or open-ice), was strong as a bull and an excellent position player. He just couldn't do a darn thing with the puck once he had it.

But, it says a lot about the rest of his game that Bowman used him more than far more skilled players like Shutt, Houle, Napier and Larouche.

IIRC, Tikhonov may also have been remembering Gainey's other performances in international play as well, where Bob tended to perform well.