World Cup: tie breakers

[hitmen19]

anybody know the tie breaker procedures for the world cup if 3 teams tied with say a record of 2 -1?

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[Xokkeu]

anybody know the tie breaker procedures for the world cup if 3 teams tied with say a record of 2 -1?

1) Total of regulation and OT wins; 2) Regulation wins only; 3) Goal Differential; 4) Total goals scored

 

[hitmen19]

1) Total of regulation and OT wins; 2) Regulation wins only; 3) Goal Differential; 4) Total goals scored

thanks

the usa could still actually lose to Canada and get in.

Canada goes 3-0

Europe loses to Czechs

USA beat Czechs

3 teams at 1-2

So its hope you don't get creamed by Canada and hope you can blow one team out.

Europe winning by 3 is huge

 

[Canada4Gold]

1) Total of regulation and OT wins; 2) Regulation wins only; 3) Goal Differential; 4) Total goals scored

They should use head to head, goal differential and goals for in games between the tied teams before goal differential.

 

[Jonas1235]

I heard on sportsnet that there is a tie breaking game if teams are perfectly tied.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I heard on sportsnet that there is a tie breaking game if teams are perfectly tied.

that's pretty much impossible since the only perfect tie that's unbreakable(using ROW, regulation W, GD, GF, h2h GD, and h2h GF) is a 3 way tie and you can't play a 3 way game. Any 2 way perfect tie can be broken using h2h.

Anyway here's the official tiebreakers

http://ice.wch2016.com/standings

Tie Between Two Teams
If two teams are tied in points, the tie is broken by the result of the head-to-head game between the two tied teams.

Three- or Four-Way Tie
(Tie-breakers 1-4 calculated based on ALL games played):
ROW (Total of regulation and OT wins)
Regulation wins (Total of regulation wins only)
Goal Differential (Total Goals For minus total Goals Against in all games played)
Total Goals Scored (Total Goals For in all games played)


(Tie-breakers 5-6 calculated based on games played between the tied teams only):
Goal Differential (Total Goals For minus total Goals Against in games between the tied teams)
Total Goals Scored (Total Goals For in games between tied teams)

 

[XokkeyGuy]

Important - Solve the calculation!

As the groups stage has been half way played by now, we are noticing that this can and probably will be a very tight finish.
So. Something important that has came up lately is that there is a huge chance of a few teams ending up at the same amount of points - and even though we have some tie-breaking rules, it is not quite clear which format is prefered in the World Cup.
I will use group B as an example and fill in the remaining matches with some random results and show you the way tournaments would have been decided in most other major tournaments and sports around the world and how the World Cup rule book may differ, then you need to come up with the right answer, Alternative 1 or Alternative 2.

This is how the group has ended:
Russia 1-2 Sweden
Finland 1-4 North America
North America 3-4 Russia
Finland 0-7 Sweden
North America 4-2 Sweden
Finland 1-7 Russia

Alternative 1 (IIHF, FIFA etc.):
1. North America 4p ---11GF ---7GA --- +4 dif.
2. Russia --------4p ---12GF ---7GA --- +5 dif.
3. Sweden ------4p ----11GF ---5GA --- +6 dif.
4. Finland -------0p ----2 GF ---18GA -- -16 dif.

Explanation: In this format you have three teams at same points, which means that you totally ignore the results against Finland and create a mini-group among the tied teams, which leaves North America with a +1 dif, Russia at +0 and Sweden at -1.
North America 7(GF)-6(GA) = +1
Russia 5(GF)-5(GA) = +0
Sweden 4(GF)-5(GA) = -1

Alternative 2 (possible tie breaking rules in the World Cup):

1. Sweden ------4p ----11GF ---5GA --- +6 dif.
2. Russia --------4p ---12GF ---7GA --- +5 dif.
3. North America 4p ---11GF ---7GA --- +4 dif.
4. Finland -------0p ----2 GF ---18GA -- -16 dif.

Explanation: In this format we have three teams at four points each and they have all beaten each other. However, you count every match and since the goal difference is the first thing in line that differs the teams from each other in the full table, that will be what decides it, whereas Sweden has the best goals for and goals against ratio and leaves them at the top.

Comment: Usually I am among those who always knows this from day 1, but just recently I have heard other perspectives and Alternative 1 (which I was sure is the one being used) might not be the format which is being used this time.
Since I believe that it is very likely for teams to end up in a scenario where they finish at the same amount of points, the format that is being used will be vital - as you can see in my two examples.

 

[llwyd]

Comment: Usually I am among those who always knows this from day 1, but just recently I have heard other perspectives and Alternative 1 (which I was sure is the one being used) might not be the format which is being used this time.
Since I believe that it is very likely for teams to end up in a scenario where they finish at the same amount of points, the format that is being used will be vital - as you can see in my two examples.

Cheers, very useful! Btw, I don't understand why not give 3p for a regulation win and 2 for ot win, would be more simple.

 

[XokkeyGuy]

Cheers, very useful! Btw, I don't understand why not give 3p for a regulation win and 2 for ot win, would be more simple.

Yeah, that would at least lower the risk somewhat for the tie breaking rules to take place.
I really hope someone can clear this out as soon as possible before more games are played, because you're not sure who to cheer for really unless you know what the tournament rules are.

 

[daver]

thanks

the usa could still actually lose to Canada and get in.

Canada goes 3-0

Europe loses to Czechs

USA beat Czechs

3 teams at 1-2

So its hope you don't get creamed by Canada and hope you can blow one team out.

Europe winning by 3 is huge

Europe has two wins already. US needs to win or they are out.

 

[XokkeyGuy]

Anyone has any idea to the answer to post #7? Would be really nice if anyone out there has the answer as it is really hard to know who to cheer for in the other matches when the format itself can determine the outcome so drastically.

 

[baronsforever]

Anyone has any idea to the answer to post #7? Would be really nice if anyone out there has the answer as it is really hard to know who to cheer for in the other matches when the format itself can determine the outcome so drastically.

the answer is already quoted, and on the official website standings page.

Three- or Four-Way Tie
(Tie-breakers 1-4 calculated based on ALL games played):
ROW (Total of regulation and OT wins)
Regulation wins (Total of regulation wins only)
Goal Differential (Total Goals For minus total Goals Against in all games played)
Total Goals Scored (Total Goals For in all games played)


(Tie-breakers 5-6 calculated based on games played between the tied teams only):
Goal Differential (Total Goals For minus total Goals Against in games between the tied teams)
Total Goals Scored (Total Goals For in games between tied teams)

so the goal differential is taken from all three games played. (which is alternative #2 i believe)

 

[Canada4Gold]

Anyone has any idea to the answer to post #7? Would be really nice if anyone out there has the answer as it is really hard to know who to cheer for in the other matches when the format itself can determine the outcome so drastically.

The tiebreaking rules are literally in the post right above this one. It's GD in all games played. I think it's dumb and GD in h2h games are better but it's very clear those are the rules being used.

 

[XokkeyGuy]

the answer is already quoted, and on the official website standings page.

so the goal differential is taken from all three games played. (which is alternative #2 i believe)

The tiebreaking rules are literally in the post right above this one. It's GD in all games played. I think it's dumb and GD in h2h games are better but it's very clear those are the rules being used.

Thanks for the clarification guys.
Yea, I am surprised that they chose to use the total diff. It benefits the team that gets to play the team that is already out in the last game.

 

[Ola]

I am sorry to hi-jack this thread but I have a question and had a thread I created closed for some reason so I will put it in here instead. Again, apologize to the OP but since he has had his question answered I hope that it is OK.

Which teams would advance under these two scenarios from that Group under the assumption that Russia beats Finland 3-2?

Scenario 1

Team North America-Sweden 1-0

Scenario 2

Team North America-Sweden 10-0

Anyone care to take a swing at it? The rules are a bit odd, because they can be read as soon as a three way tie is "won", the remaining two teams go back to previous steps. Which would mean that if NAT, Russia and Sweden goes to Goal difference, NAT would take it in Scenario 2, and Sweden and Russia would start over and Sweden would take it on having beaten Russia. Or they can be read as that they enter it as a three way-tie, and comes out from it 1/2/3 with Sweden ranked last on goal diff under both scenarios. I am tired and need help. If the first scenario applies, a result is that it would be better for Sweden, if they are loosing, to loose big to make NAT the winner of the group.

 

[SotasicA]

Alternative 1 (IIHF, FIFA etc.):
1. North America 4p ---11GF ---7GA --- +4 dif.
2. Russia --------4p ---12GF ---7GA --- +5 dif.
3. Sweden ------4p ----11GF ---5GA --- +6 dif.
4. Finland -------0p ----2 GF ---18GA -- -16 dif.

:

Except FiFA uses alternative 2 (overall goal difference before H2H)

 

[SotasicA]

The rules are a bit odd, because they can be read as soon as a three way tie is "won", the remaining two teams go back to previous steps.

Only if a two-way tie remains. If goal differential is enough to separate all three teams, the tie is broken.

 

[XokkeyGuy]

I am sorry to hi-jack this thread but I have a question and had a thread I created closed for some reason so I will put it in here instead. Again, apologize to the OP but since he has had his question answered I hope that it is OK.

Which teams would advance under these two scenarios from that Group under the assumption that Russia beats Finland 3-2?

Scenario 1

Team North America-Sweden 1-0

Scenario 2

Team North America-Sweden 10-0

Anyone care to take a swing at it? The rules are a bit odd, because they can be read as soon as a three way tie is "won", the remaining two teams go back to previous steps. Which would mean that if NAT, Russia and Sweden goes to Goal difference, NAT would take it in Scenario 2, and Sweden and Russia would start over and Sweden would take it on having beaten Russia. Or they can be read as that they enter it as a three way-tie, and comes out from it 1/2/3 with Sweden ranked last on goal diff under both scenarios. I am tired and need help. If the first scenario applies, a result is that it would be better for Sweden, if they are loosing, to loose big to make NAT the winner of the group.

Yeah, I have been wondering about that as well, it is a truly interesting question because that might decide everything... and I forgot to include that in my post #7 in here.
In my opinion the fairest would be to only go by goal diff among all teams that are tied on points and have beaten each other and I would slightly lean towards saying that that will be the rule they apply, but I see the point. Because lets say that NA goes #1, Sweden #2 and Russia #3 - you would have Russia behind NA because of goal diff. but they would be behind Sweden due to the loss against them - so in that case you can´t really see any continuity and it would look unfair.

Anyone else who might want to give it a try?

 

[Canada4Gold]

The standings page on the WCOH website doesn't specify what happens in this case but I can't imagine they would have a 3 way tie completely broken by a step(say GD was +5, +2, and +1) and just take the first team, then revert back to the h2h game for the other 2 when they weren't tied anymore.

When I made my pool scenarios thread I came across an interesting question that if they have a 3 way tie and break it at a step but the other 2 teams remain tied(GD of +5, +2, and +2 for instance) do they revert to head to head for the other 2 teams or continue on to the next step. Every round robin I've seen reverts back to the first tiebreakers so head to head so that's what I've assumed but they don't specify on the page, it's possible they will go to the next step which is goals scored instead

 

[XokkeyGuy]

The standings page on the WCOH website doesn't specify what happens in this case but I can't imagine they would have a 3 way tie completely broken by a step(say GD was +5, +2, and +1) and just take the first team, then revert back to the h2h game for the other 2 when they weren't tied anymore.

So in the 10-0 example Sweden would then finish #2 even though having same amount of points as the two others, but still beating Russia due to the h2h? -Even though Russia has beaten NA, but since they are three teams on that stage it doesn´t count?

By this, Russias only chance on getting the #1 is by outscoring NA on the goal diff. because if they don´t, they will be #3?
So stupid.
I like the mini-group among teams at same points and ignore results against the rest much more than this.

 

[Canada4Gold]

So in the 10-0 example Sweden would then finish #2 even though having same amount of points as the two others, but still beating Russia due to the h2h? -Even though Russia has beaten NA, but since they are three teams on that stage it doesn´t count?

By this, Russias only chance on getting the #1 is by outscoring NA on the goal diff. because if they don´t, they will be #3?
So stupid.
I like the mini-group among teams at same points and ignore results against the rest much more than this.

That's not what I said at all. Under the assumption that if 1 tiebreaker step breaks all 3 teams that's how they would be ranked then Sweden would be last in that case due to their -7 goal differential(1st. NA +12, 2nd. Russia +1)

There's no clarification on exactly what they do but I can't imagine they would take North America as #1 and then have the other 2 decided by h2h because the tie between the other 2 would also be split on the same goal difference step that made NA #1.

My last paragraph was in reference to what happens if they remain tied on that setp, say Russia wins 1-0, NA wins 3-1, then NA is +4, Sweden is +1, Russia +1. NA is 1st and since the other 2 remain tied I assume they revert back to h2h at that point instead of going to the next step(goals scored) because it's not a 3 way tie anymore.

as for "By this, Russias only chance on getting the #1 is by outscoring NA on the goal diff." that's the only way anyone will get 1st in a 3 way tie because they all beat each other. Russia's win over NA means no more than NA's win over Sweden which means no more than Sweden's win over Russia, they're all 1-1 head to head. So the tie is decided on goal difference. If goal difference breaks the tie between all 3 teams then I believe that's how they will be ranked, only in the case that 2 of the teams remain tied once goal difference is applied do they revert to head to head

But like I said the standings page on the WCOH website is not clear and there's been no clarification but this is the way tiebreakers normally procced, it wouldn't make sense to have GD complete break a 3 way tie and then pretend 2nd and 3rd are still tied and revert to h2h that would make no sense

 

[XokkeyGuy]

as for "By this, Russias only chance on getting the #1 is by outscoring NA on the goal diff." that's the only way anyone will get 1st in a 3 way tie because they all beat each other. Russia's win over NA means no more than NA's win over Sweden which means no more than Sweden's win over Russia, they're all 1-1 head to head. So the tie is decided on goal difference. If goal difference breaks the tie between all 3 teams then I believe that's how they will be ranked, only in the case that 2 of the teams remain tied once goal difference is applied do they revert to head to head

But like I said the standings page on the WCOH website is not clear and there's been no clarification but this is the way tiebreakers normally procced, it wouldn't make sense to have GD complete break a 3 way tie and then pretend 2nd and 3rd are still tied and revert to h2h that would make no sense

Alrighty, I get it now. If that would be the case; for instance, right now we have NA leading 3-2 against Sweden - if the game ends like that - for Russia to be #1 they would need a 3 goal win against the finns? Because then NA and Russia would both be at a GD of +3, but since its about those 2 it could rather make Russia #1 due to their win over NA instead of counting the goals for (which NA would have more of)?

 

[MaxV]

An interesting case would be if it's a 3-way time and Russia and Sweden both end up with the same GF/GA, which currently is possible.

What is the next tie-breaker?

Is it back to head-to-head game or do games vs NA get factored in?

 

[XokkeyGuy]

Oh well, Sweden are #1 no matter what after their point vs NA. Now that NA took an overtime win against Sweden it is as simple as if Russia takes 2p tomorrow against Finland - they will pass NA and finish #2, if Russia takes less than 2 points - NA will be #2.

 

[TLeafsFan]

Oh well, Sweden are #1 no matter what after their point vs NA. Now that NA took an overtime win against Sweden it is as simple as if Russia takes 2p tomorrow against Finland - they will pass NA and finish #2, if Russia takes less than 2 points - NA will be #2.

Not if Russia wins in OT. Exact same record at that point and NA has them on goal differential if OT happens.