Thornton Cup with Toronto compared to Bourque with Colorado?

[acrobaticgoalie]

Seen a few comments saying Bourque because he was still a star at 41 but one thing to consider is that Thornton is still playing in an era that is much faster and is a young man's game. The fact that Joe is still playing even when he was never quick in the feet is impressive.

Both players are going to go down as one of the greatest players all time at their respective positions and if Thornton were to win it this year in his final year I would consider that the same as when Bourque won.
I rank Bourque over Thornton easily though if we were ranking best all time.

 

[MadLuke]

I disagree, personally. Having him traded around the deadline date made it more impactful because of how fresh it was. I think him requesting a trade and hoping for a last chance at the cup made it even bigger. Had he signed on in the offseason, the narrative of the trade is lost, which made it more noteworthy when he won because 3-4 months before he lifted the cup he was on a lowly bruins team that were dead last in their division.

He won the cups more than a year after the trade at the deadline it was is second season with the Avalange.

Would he had signed in the following summer, it would have been fresher.

 

[The Beyonder]

He won the cups more than a year after the trade at the deadline it was is second season with the Avalange.

Would he had signed in the following summer, it would have been fresher.

Wow. I completely misremembered. I think having the trade and the cup being so memorable when I was a kid that I just squeezed them together.

 

[Video Nasty]

Seen a few comments saying Bourque because he was still a star at 41 but one thing to consider is that Thornton is still playing in an era that is much faster and is a young man's game. The fact that Joe is still playing even when he was never quick in the feet is impressive.

Both players are going to go down as one of the greatest players all time at their respective positions and if Thornton were to win it this year in his final year I would consider that the same as when Bourque won.
I rank Bourque over Thornton easily though if we were ranking best all time.

Bourque’s final season was Thornton’s 4th season in the league. It’s hardly ancient history.

I get what you’re saying, but I see this stance all the time about everything being a young man’s game and how advanced it is year in and year out.

It’s never not been a young man’s game and there are always old players like Thornton playing into their 40s. Impressive, but not earth shattering stuff.

Eras across all sports are way overrated.

The difference in roles and level of play between Bourque and Thornton is a chasm that I’m surprised people think is easily crossed.

 

[Didalee Hed]

More impressive. That avalanche team is miles and miles and multiple tiers ahead of and above the leafs.

 

[Evincar]

I say not as meaningful only because I do not consider this a "real" season because of the shortened schedule, had this been a full 82 game season and Thornton played in 90%+ of those games and the entire playoffs like Bourque did and was a significant contributor I would say about the same, possibly a little more because of the hometown factor and the fact Leafs have not won in 50+ years

Is it still not a real season if shortened regular seasons become the norm?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I mean if anyone wins a cup with the leafs it’s impressive... hell if they make it past round 1 I’d be more impressed.

 

[Evincar]

Thornton's Cup win might be similar to Lanny McDonalds Cup win. Obviously Thornton is leagues better than Lanny both are depth pieces rather than key contributors.

 

[treple13]

Bourque is a more significant historic player, but the Leafs are a much more unlikely winner, so I'd say roughly the same

 

[Mickey Marner]

Not as notable. Bourque was a 30 minute per game number one defenseman when he won, Thornton would just be a guy who happened to play on the winning team. The Leafs winning the cup in general would obviously be a bigger story though.

 

[Albatros]

Bourque had a big role, but Blake was the number one both in ice time and in contribution in the playoffs.

 

[Islay1989]

Seen a few comments saying Bourque because he was still a star at 41 but one thing to consider is that Thornton is still playing in an era that is much faster and is a young man's game. The fact that Joe is still playing even when he was never quick in the feet is impressive.

Both players are going to go down as one of the greatest players all time at their respective positions and if Thornton were to win it this year in his final year I would consider that the same as when Bourque won.
I rank Bourque over Thornton easily though if we were ranking best all time.

Lol. Bourque wasn't just a star, he came in 2nd in Norris voting that year and was an integral part of the Cup-winning team scoring 59 points in the regular season playing 26mins per night in the regular season, and then he played almost 29mins per game in the playoffs scoring 10 points in 21 games. The parallel between the two is hilarious. And give me a break with the much faster era and equating them as one of the greatest players of all-time at their respective positions. One is the 3rd best defenseman to ever play the game after Orr and Harvey and the other isn't even a top 100 player of all time.

 

[Islay1989]

Bourque had a big role, but Blake was the number one both in ice time and in contribution in the playoffs.

Sure. If you completely neglect deployment, PK, matchups etc. If they needed to kill a penalty Ray was first out there. If they needed to take a tough matchup Ray was there. If they were trying to save the lead Ray was on the ice.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Lol. Bourque wasn't just a star, he came in 2nd in Norris voting that year and was an integral part of the Cup-winning team scoring 59 points in the regular season playing 26mins per night in the regular season, and then he played almost 29mins per game in the playoffs scoring 10 points in 21 games. The parallel between the two is hilarious. And give me a break with the much faster era and equating them as one of the greatest players of all-time at their respective positions. One is the 3rd best defenseman to ever play the game after Orr and Harvey and the other isn't even a top 100 player of all time.

Thornton is sitting 14th all time in points and after this season will likely move up to 12th, so I don't know how you figure he isn't a top 100 player. I already said Bourque was the better player. The point is that they are both among the all time best players and if Thornton wins this year, I would consider it the same because they would have both finally won in their final year after a 23 year career.

I do think eras matter. The league is much faster and more skilled now than it was 20 years ago. Competition is much deeper. Scoring is much harder to come by as goalies have become bigger, the equipment is miles ahead of where it used to be and the technique has evolved. We are seeing less and less players playing into their late 30s and 40s these days and we are seeing more players stepping in as teenagers. So yes, I would say its becoming more of a young man's game. The fact that guys like Thonrnton and Chara are still playing in their 40's in this day and age is impressive even if it isn't an elite level. These are all legit things to consider and shouldn't be considered ridiculous.

Is Thornton at the same level that Bourque was at the age of 41 or at their primes? No but Both are among the greats.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

I'd say he's free to pursue a life of religious fulfillment.

 

[Islay1989]

Thornton is sitting 14th all time in points and after this season will likely move up to 12th, so I don't know how you figure he isn't a top 100 player. I already said Bourque was the better player. The point is that they are both among the all time best players and if Thornton wins this year, I would consider it the same because they would have both finally won in their final year after a 23 year career.

I do think eras matter. The league is much faster and more skilled now than it was 20 years ago. Competition is much deeper. Scoring is much harder to come by as goalies have become bigger, the equipment is miles ahead of where it used to be and the technique has evolved. We are seeing less and less players playing into their late 30s and 40s these days and we are seeing more players stepping in as teenagers. So yes, I would say its becoming more of a young man's game. The fact that guys like Thonrnton and Chara are still playing in their 40's in this day and age is impressive even if it isn't an elite level. These are all legit things to consider and shouldn't be considered ridiculous.

Is Thornton at the same level that Bourque was at the age of 41 or at their primes? No but Both are among the greats.

Scoring is much harder to come by than in the DPE? Are you for real? Competition is much better?

As for points, they aren't be all end all. There's plenty of forwards who scored a lot less than he did who were much better players, Fedorov, Forsberg, Morenz, Bobby Hull, Richard, Clarke, Mikita, Trottier, Bossy etc. Not to mention droves of defensemen and goalies.

 

[Figgy44]

I feel like Thornton's win will be far closer to something like Timmonen on the Hawks than Bourque on the Avs...

 

[Critical13]

Why does this even need to be a thing?

Why does every single aspect of the Leafs need to be compared to something else.

If Joe somehow wins one with the Leafs, it will be a similar but different moment for all of us and I would obviously love to see it.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Let's bash the Leafs.

I call dibs

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Scoring is much harder to come by than in the DPE? Are you for real? Competition is much better?

As for points, they aren't be all end all. There's plenty of forwards who scored a lot less than he did who were much better players, Fedorov, Forsberg, Morenz, Bobby Hull, Richard, Clarke, Mikita, Trottier, Bossy etc. Not to mention droves of defensemen and goalies.

Why do you think the league keeps making rule changes to goalie equipment and things like the red line and trapezoid? They're trying to create more scoring because it is tougher to score. Look at some of the great goalies like Roy and Belfour. Their career sv% avg was around .910. Compare that to some of the goalies the last 15 years like Lundqvist and Ryan Miller and they consistently put up seasons at .920 or higher and have a career avg of .918.
Can you honestly tell me that Gretzky would be putting up 92 goal seasons and 200+ pts this day and age? Ovechkin is likely the best pure goal scorer of all time and hit the 65 goal mark once.

And yes, I would consider competition deeper now because you can roll any line out that can skate and play hockey as opposed to the days when you had enforcers that would only play 3 minutes a night and couldn't contribute much other than a fight and throwing a few hits. Look at the Lightning's 3rd and 4th lines on last year's cup win. Fast skilled and can grind and score.

 

[MadLuke]

I do think eras matter. The league is much faster and more skilled now than it was 20 years ago. Competition is much deeper. Scoring is much harder to come by as goalies have become bigger, the equipment is miles ahead of where it used to be and the technique has evolved. We are seeing less and less players playing into their late 30s and 40s these days and we are seeing more players stepping in as teenagers. So yes, I would say its becoming more of a young man's game. The fact that guys like Thonrnton and Chara are still playing in their 40's in this day and age is impressive even if it isn't an elite level. These are all legit things to consider and shouldn't be considered ridiculous.

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

we are in a 2.8/2.82 goal a game by team era.

20 year's ago it was the 2.5/2.6 dpe, save percentage is a bit higher than most of the season of the past but shots are up and power plays more deadly.

Has for being a younger game, it is true in 2000-2001 in the top 100 scorers:

Average age: 28.3
Median age: 28

In 2018-2019 top 100 scorer
Average age: 26.4
Median age: 26

canada (and many place in the world) birth rate had quite a boom between around 50 to 65 (violent drop):

Talent pool made the late 90s early 2000s rich in old stars I imagine for that reason, it was not uncommon for 90s player to even have their best season relative to the league like Sakic and for defenseman like MacInnis/Bourque to age really well (MacInnis won is first norris at 35 almost won at 39 and who knows what he would have done at 40).

 

[MadLuke]

Why do you think the league keeps making rule changes to goalie equipment and things like the red line and trapezoid? They're trying to create more scoring because it is tougher to score. Look at some of the great goalies like Roy and Belfour. Their career sv% avg was around .910. Compare that to some of the goalies the last 15 years like Lundqvist and Ryan Miller and they consistently put up seasons at .920 or higher and have a career avg of .918.
Can you honestly tell me that Gretzky would be putting up 92 goal seasons and 200+ pts this day and age? Ovechkin is likely the best pure goal scorer of all time and hit the 65 goal mark once.

And yes, I would consider competition deeper now because you can roll any line out that can skate and play hockey as opposed to the days when you had enforcers that would only play 3 minutes a night and couldn't contribute much other than a fight and throwing a few hits. Look at the Lightning's 3rd and 4th lines on last year's cup win. Fast skilled and can grind and score.

it seem like you are mixing 35 year's ago with 2000, Roy in the early 2000s had .913, .925, .920 season. And that's old Roy.

Roy once the lower scoring start in 96-97 is a .918 goaltender during the regular season and .923 in the playoff.

Gretzky do not score 92 goal in 2000-2001 either.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

we are in a 2.8/2.82 goal a game by team era.

20 year's ago it was the 2.5/2.6 dpe, save percentage is a bit higher than most of the season of the past but shots are up and power plays more deadly.

Has for being a younger game, it is true in 2000-2001 in the top 100 scorers:

Average age: 28.3
Median age: 28

In 2018-2019 top 100 scorer
Average age: 26.4
Median age: 26

canada (and many place in the world) birth rate had quite a boom between around 50 to 65 (violent drop):

Talent pool made the late 90s early 2000s rich in old stars I imagine for that reason, it was not uncommon for 90s player to even have their best season relative to the league like Sakic and for defenseman like MacInnis/Bourque to age really well (MacInnis won is first norris at 35 almost won at 39 and who knows what he would have done at 40).

Great post!

The league brought in the Red line rule and the trapezoid in 04-05 to increase flow of the game and elevate scoring. In 2015 the league brought in 3 on 3 overtime to increase goal scoring to try to avoid going to a shootout. I can't find when the rule was implemented that a team on the PP is awarded offensive zone faceoff.

In 2006 the league made changes to goalie equipment sizing. Pads could not exceed 11"in width (down from 12). Blockers couldn't exceed 15" in length and gloves couldn't exceed 8". In both 2011 and 2017 rules were made to reduce length of goalie pads. In 2017 the league shrunk the size of goalie pants and chest protectors.

All things to try to increase goal scoring in the last 15 years.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

it seem like you are mixing 35 year's ago with 2000, Roy in the early 2000s had .913, .925, .920 season. And that's old Roy.

Roy once the lower scoring start in 96-97 is a .918 goaltender during the regular season and .923 in the playoff.

Gretzky do not score 92 goal in 2000-2001 either.

I was trying to make a point about how the eras have changed because the other poster was brushing it off. Goaltending now is a lot better than it was in any era

 

[LeafsNation75]

Not close at all.

Bourque is arguably the second greatest defenseman to ever play the game and usually regarded as no worse than top five.

He was one of the very best from the moment he started his career all the way through the very end.

He was a great playoff performer long before the trade to Colorado. There were heartbreaking chances at the Cup (he played in 2 SCF and multiple deep runs before winning with the Avs) and he more than did his part to help some of those Bruins contenders.

And I’m surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but he put in nearly 21 seasons with the same team before he gave his blessing to be moved to a serious Cup contender at the very end of his career. Other than Sakic and Roy, his play was the reason they won that Cup.

You can even get sentimental about it and say he was THE reason because everyone rallied around wanting to help him get it.

I’m a big fan of Thornton, but it’s not remotely close. I’m not surprised there’s votes for him, but I am surprised it’s not 90% in Bourque’s favor.

Thornton had previously played 15 years with San Jose and like Bourque did in Boston losing in the 1988 and 1990 Stanley Cup Final, Thornton had lost in the 2016 Stanley Cup Final.

I'm not saying it would be exactly the same scenario when Bourque won it in 2001, however both have similar stories of losing in the Finals when you look at it from that point of view.