Therrien Part IV - This Time, It's Personal...

[Winter Eclipse]

I'm not saying that he is flawless, he certainly isn't, but he has done a more than acceptable job with this group even if Price having his best season ever helps out a lot.

So our coach deserves a lot of credit, while a franchise level goalie having a career best season is "a lot" of help, too?

So, "a lot" of the credit goes to MT, but "a lot" also goes to Price? Makes sense.

EDIT: If you had to choose between keeping MT or keeping Price, who do you choose?

 

[Miller Time]

Well it gives us 4 decent lines. 4 lines that can give you good hockey. If you put Weise on the 4th line with Prust and Malhotra or Bournival, then that line won't see much ice and reasonably so.

That's also a reason why we're trying to get a winger on the trade market.

if that was the logic behind his approach, weise wouldn't have played 10min tonight, and sekac wouldn't be sitting in the stands.

also, there's a reason why 4th lines are refered to as "energy" lines... they aren't supposed to see much ice time. They are supposed to play extremmely high tempo, short minutes.

You don't play 4th liners on your first line (or with your best winger) in order to "balance" the lines unless you're playing EA hockey on an easy setting and looking to bolster your depth guys stat lines...


now i do agree that the reason we are actively shopping is to add some top-6 talent to the team, no argument there...

but my point remains that the coach has done a poor, if not terrible, job of utilizing the assets he has in place. we're he doing a better job of putting players in a position to succeed, instead of playing strange line games that oddly seem to favor certain players inexplicably over others, than the "need" for a top-6 addition may not be so pronounced.

this group of players in no way/shape/form should be bottom of the league in PP and goal scoring. not elite/top tier, fine, but definitely not bottom 5.

and that falls on the coach, plain and simple

 

[Chfan]

So our coach deserves a lot of credit, while a franchise level goalie having a career best season is "a lot" of help, too?

So, "a lot" of the credit goes to MT, but "a lot" also goes to Price? Makes sense.

EDIT: If you had to choose between keeping MT or keeping Price, who do you choose?

Why does it have to be a choice? That is one flawed argument. So when a goalie plays well, the coach MUST not have "a lot" of credit? If Jimmy Howard puts on a clinic and wins the cup, Babcock can't be a good coach? No, I'm not comparing the two. MT is not even on that level, but to say that our coach don't deserve credit because our goalie is having a career year doesn't make sense. indeed

So you think that another coach, with Carey Price in nets, would have a better record than 36-15-4?

That is a reach don't you think?

 

[Chfan]

if that was the logic behind his approach, weise wouldn't have played 10min tonight, and sekac wouldn't be sitting in the stands.

also, there's a reason why 4th lines are refered to as "energy" lines... they aren't supposed to see much ice time. They are supposed to play extremmely high tempo, short minutes.

You don't play 4th liners on your first line (or with your best winger) in order to "balance" the lines unless you're playing EA hockey on an easy setting and looking to bolster your depth guys stat lines...


now i do agree that the reason we are actively shopping is to add some top-6 talent to the team, no argument there...

but my point remains that the coach has done a poor, if not terrible, job of utilizing the assets he has in place. we're he doing a better job of putting players in a position to succeed, instead of playing strange line games that oddly seem to favor certain players inexplicably over others, than the "need" for a top-6 addition may not be so pronounced.

this group of players in no way/shape/form should be bottom of the league in PP and goal scoring. not elite/top tier, fine, but definitely not bottom 5.

and that falls on the coach, plain and simple

I agree that the line juggling is pretty bad at times.

But I disagree that Weise is a 4th liner. I see him as a 3rd liner capable of holding a top 6 spot on a short-term basis. Which is what we're doing now, until we find someone who can play there. Well, we do have 4 lines that contribute and play well don't we not?

I'm a HUGE supporter of Sekac but as great as he is with the puck in the offensive zone, he is still sometimes out of position, and MT's way of making the young players to learn the ropes is by sending them messages that they have to play better and he makes them skip games (I'm not a big fan of the method either) but that's how he works. Sometimes, it does work. The players aren't kids, they won't be crushed by missing a game, for younger guys, sometimes it does motivate them to be better. He has been developing our young players well and you can't deny that, they all have a good work ethic and they are improving.

And the last I heard, Dan Lacroix's main job is the Power Play, so if it has to fall on the coaches, you have to blame the whole coaching staff not just MT.

I'm not saying he's the perfect coach, but he has been "good", yes, definitely.

Like I said before, do you think that with the exact same team, with Price in nets, another coach, one that you consider "Really good" do better than a 36-15-4 record that we have as of today, on top of the Eastern Conference?

 

[bentheprop]

An article I wrote on Therrien, evaulating different aspects of his coaching :

http://www.canadiensdaily.com/2015/02/michel-therrien-report-card/

How can you give him an A+ for discipline when he isn't consistent with it? He plays favorites and certain players are never punished no matter how poorly they play or how much they screw up.

Also your lineup rating is too high. The fact that Bergevin has had to get rid of players to stop Therrien from over playing them shows how bad he is here. The reason so many people want DD traded is because we're sure that it's the only way to stop seeing him used as the top center. In fact I wouldn't mind keeping DD if Therrien is fired.

 

[Haburger]

Therrien is the worst coach ever.

 

[Lshap]

I agree that the line juggling is pretty bad at times.

But I disagree that Weise is a 4th liner. I see him as a 3rd liner capable of holding a top 6 spot on a short-term basis. Which is what we're doing now, until we find someone who can play there. Well, we do have 4 lines that contribute and play well don't we not?

I'm a HUGE supporter of Sekac but as great as he is with the puck in the offensive zone, he is still sometimes out of position, and MT's way of making the young players to learn the ropes is by sending them messages that they have to play better and he makes them skip games (I'm not a big fan of the method either) but that's how he works. Sometimes, it does work. The players aren't kids, they won't be crushed by missing a game, for younger guys, sometimes it does motivate them to be better. He has been developing our young players well and you can't deny that, they all have a good work ethic and they are improving.

And the last I heard, Dan Lacroix's main job is the Power Play, so if it has to fall on the coaches, you have to blame the whole coaching staff not just MT.

I'm not saying he's the perfect coach, but he has been "good", yes, definitely.

Like I said before, do you think that with the exact same team, with Price in nets, another coach, one that you consider "Really good" do better than a 36-15-4 record that we have as of today, on top of the Eastern Conference?

Just a quick than-you for the well-written article. Beyond the good read, the only missing ingredient in your content is an evaluation of Therrien's system. You've been pretty objective about his strengths, but avoided what most feel is his biggest weakness -- his hyper-defensive game plan that traditionally creates a shot-metric nightmare. The debate around here is whether Therrien is maximizing the Habs' mediocre talent, or handicapping their superior talent with his overly-cautious system.

To answer your question, I admit it's hard to imagine having a better record with ANY coach, but the big concern is how much is being held together almost singlehandedly by Price. I'm with you that Therrien deserves credit for the buy-in and at least part of the amazing discipline, but the lack of offensive rushes and o-zone pressure is a problem that ain't going away. On that subject I'm still unsure about where the players' talent ends and the coach's system begins.

 

[Pricef*]

I agree that the line juggling is pretty bad at times.

But I disagree that Weise is a 4th liner. I see him as a 3rd liner capable of holding a top 6 spot on a short-term basis. Which is what we're doing now, until we find someone who can play there. Well, we do have 4 lines that contribute and play well don't we not?

I'm a HUGE supporter of Sekac but as great as he is with the puck in the offensive zone, he is still sometimes out of position, and MT's way of making the young players to learn the ropes is by sending them messages that they have to play better and he makes them skip games (I'm not a big fan of the method either) but that's how he works. Sometimes, it does work. The players aren't kids, they won't be crushed by missing a game, for younger guys, sometimes it does motivate them to be better. He has been developing our young players well and you can't deny that, they all have a good work ethic and they are improving.

And the last I heard, Dan Lacroix's main job is the Power Play, so if it has to fall on the coaches, you have to blame the whole coaching staff not just MT.

I'm not saying he's the perfect coach, but he has been "good", yes, definitely.

Like I said before, do you think that with the exact same team, with Price in nets, another coach, one that you consider "Really good" do better than a 36-15-4 record that we have as of today, on top of the Eastern Conference?

Give it up. They'll never admit that.

 

[Pricef*]

How can you give him an A+ for discipline when he isn't consistent with it? He plays favorites and certain players are never punished no matter how poorly they play or how much they screw up.

Also your lineup rating is too high. The fact that Bergevin has had to get rid of players to stop Therrien from over playing them shows how bad he is here. The reason so many people want DD traded is because we're sure that it's the only way to stop seeing him used as the top center. In fact I wouldn't mind keeping DD if Therrien is fired.

That's ********. It was known for quite a while those 2 where going to get traded. MB was showcasing them, a regular thing in the NHL.

 

[habsfanatics*]

So our coach deserves a lot of credit, while a franchise level goalie having a career best season is "a lot" of help, too?

The team in front usually helps attribute to the success, sv% of a goalie. History has shown that SV% often follows the quality/makeup of the roster. I know the corsi/shot attempt metrics don't look to be helping, but maybe there is a tidbit of information missing here.

So, "a lot" of the credit goes to MT, but "a lot" also goes to Price? Makes sense.

I don't see why this is so unreasonable, why does it have to be one or the other? Obviously having the best netminder in the world is going to help any coach.

EDIT: If you had to choose between keeping MT or keeping Price, who do you choose?

Of course it would be Price, afterall, he's on the ice, but this is absurd anyways. I would keep Price over any coach and/or any GM. If you said to me, we could get the great Sam Pollack and Scotty Bowman to replace GMMB and MT but all we had to do was give up Price, I would politely decline and carry on my way.

 

[habsfanatics*]

if that was the logic behind his approach, weise wouldn't have played 10min tonight, and sekac wouldn't be sitting in the stands.

also, there's a reason why 4th lines are refered to as "energy" lines... they aren't supposed to see much ice time. They are supposed to play extremmely high tempo, short minutes.

You don't play 4th liners on your first line (or with your best winger) in order to "balance" the lines unless you're playing EA hockey on an easy setting and looking to bolster your depth guys stat lines...

All coaches do this, including Babs, remember Cleary being on the top line for them, I certainly do. As long as it's not permanent or long term, it's not a big deal at all.


now i do agree that the reason we are actively shopping is to add some top-6 talent to the team, no argument there...

but my point remains that the coach has done a poor, if not terrible, job of utilizing the assets he has in place. we're he doing a better job of putting players in a position to succeed, instead of playing strange line games that oddly seem to favor certain players inexplicably over others, than the "need" for a top-6 addition may not be so pronounced.

this group of players in no way/shape/form should be bottom of the league in PP and goal scoring. not elite/top tier, fine, but definitely not bottom 5.

and that falls on the coach, plain and simple

It's a combination of coach/players, no coach has the influence to impact the team that some seem to think. Coaches all have their pros/cons. Laviolette could probably get more offense, but give up more goals, none of this means you'll be a better team on the whole though, in the end, all that matters is what is conducive to winning games. In 2.5 years we have won and won a ton, the crash or the coach is holding them back mantra is foolish. This isn't the best roster in the league, not by a longshot and MT has the 6th best winning record since taking over.

You can have a short-sighted analysis and give all the credit to the goalie, or the quality of the roster, if you want, but this roster is not good enough to overcome terribly bad coaching like many suggest. If MT was as much of hindrance as suggested it would show up where it matters, eventually, and that's winning games, so how long do we need to wait for the habs to fall off the cliff, 5-6 years?

 

[Winter Eclipse]

Why does it have to be a choice? That is one flawed argument. So when a goalie plays well, the coach MUST not have "a lot" of credit? If Jimmy Howard puts on a clinic and wins the cup, Babcock can't be a good coach? No, I'm not comparing the two. MT is not even on that level, but to say that our coach don't deserve credit because our goalie is having a career year doesn't make sense. indeed

You said Therrien deserves "a lot" of credit, not just credit. As for your example, remind me of the season Jimmy Howard put up a performance like Carey Price?

Also, why isn't MT on Babcock's level exactly? You've been very vocal and specific about MT's strengths, but when it comes to any possible weaknesses, you're suddenly vague and non-committal...

So you think that another coach, with Carey Price in nets, would have a better record than 36-15-4?

Nice dodge on not actually answering my question. Let's try that again, shall we?

You've said both MT and Price deserve "a lot" of credit for our season thus far, so if you had to choose one to keep and the other to trade / fire, which one, and why?

To help you out in actually answering the question posed to you, I'll show you how one actually provides a direct answer to an inquiry:

Yes, I think we'd be doing better with a coach who employed our offensive tools better. We're getting a Vezina/Hart level season from Price, and we're gonna waste it because our coach has decided that a DD-led-1-offensive-line-3-grinder-lines system is the best way to go.

The team in front usually helps attribute to the success, sv% of a goalie. History has shown that SV% often follows the quality/makeup of the roster. I know the corsi/shot attempt metrics don't look to be helping, but maybe there is a tidbit of information missing here.

So essentially, Carey Price benefits from MT and his system more than MT benefits from Carey Price?

I don't see why this is so unreasonable, why does it have to be one or the other? Obviously having the best netminder in the world is going to help any coach.

Price doesn't "help" MT, he bails him out. Like I said above, Price is having a Vezina year, and if he drops even a little bit, Montreal's gonna take a pretty big friggin' tumble...

Of course it would be Price, afterall, he's on the ice, but this is absurd anyways. I would keep Price over any coach and/or any GM. If you said to me, we could get the great Sam Pollack and Scotty Bowman to replace GMMB and MT but all we had to do was give up Price, I would politely decline and carry on my way.

But if Price and MT are both equally responsible for our great record, why exactly would you choose one over the other?

 

[HabsDieHard*]

You said Therrien deserves "a lot" of credit, not just credit. As for your example, remind me of the season Jimmy Howard put up a performance like Carey Price?

Also, why isn't MT on Babcock's level exactly? You've been very vocal and specific about MT's strengths, but when it comes to any possible weaknesses, you're suddenly vague and non-committal...



Nice dodge on not actually answering my question. Let's try that again, shall we?

You've said both MT and Price deserve "a lot" of credit for our season thus far, so if you had to choose one to keep and the other to trade / fire, which one, and why?

To help you out in actually answering the question posed to you, I'll show you how one actually provides a direct answer to an inquiry:

Yes, I think we'd be doing better with a coach who employed our offensive tools better. We're getting a Vezina/Hart level season from Price, and we're gonna waste it because our coach has decided that a DD-led-1-offensive-line-3-grinder-lines system is the best way to go.



So essentially, Carey Price benefits from MT and his system more than MT benefits from Carey Price?



Price doesn't "help" MT, he bails him out. Like I said above, Price is having a Vezina year, and if he drops even a little bit, Montreal's gonna take a pretty big friggin' tumble...



But if Price and MT are both equally responsible for our great record, why exactly would you choose one over the other?

Great post, can't wait to see the evasive and vague responses used to try and "win" the argument against you

 

[Cole Caulifield]

But if Price and MT are both equally responsible for our great record, why exactly would you choose one over the other?

Fall back strategy #1 : strawman !

 

[HabsDieHard*]

Fall back strategy #1 : strawman !

What would be the name of the fall back strategy of making false claims about how many shootout winners a player has in a season?

 

[Pricef*]

We have the best roster in the East.

I still can't believe those words where actually posted here.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Fall back strategy #1 : strawman !

I don't know I bother, someone, I don't know who is going on ignore. I don't have time for spin doctors and flat out making **** up.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

I don't know I bother, someone, I don't know who is going on ignore. I don't have time for spin doctors and flat out making **** up.

Classic lame brain cop out because you have no rational response.

"I don't have time for spin doctors and flat out making **** up...and I'm going to take the time to post as much to let you know"

 

[habsfanatics*]

Classic lame brain cop out because you have no rational response.

"I don't have time for spin doctors and flat out making **** up...and I'm going to take the time to post as much to let you know"

Chalk up another 1 !!!!!!

 

[habsfanatics*]

Chalk up another 1 !!!!!!

The was asking me to defend an argument I never made, if you were more interested in the discussion rather than your mob, group think you would have seen that.

I guess having an intelligent discussion is asking for too much.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

What would be the name of the fall back strategy of making false claims about how many shootout winners a player has in a season?

Captain fact checker to the rescue !

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The team in front usually helps attribute to the success, sv% of a goalie. History has shown that SV% often follows the quality/makeup of the roster. I know the corsi/shot attempt metrics don't look to be helping, but maybe there is a tidbit of information missing here.

No data on this - or maybe there is and I'm not aware of it - but it would stand to reason that good defensive teams would have good goaltending. But that's not always the case. Brodeur, Roy, Rask have all benefitted from strong defense. We can see that. Hasek and Price? Not so much. There's zero to suggest that our defensive system does anything but hinder our goalie.

I don't see why this is so unreasonable, why does it have to be one or the other? Obviously having the best netminder in the world is going to help any coach.

Because we can see that we're regularly outplayed. The numbers just quantify how bad it is.

 

[habsfanatics*]

No data on this - or maybe there is and I'm not aware of it - but it would stand to reason that good defensive teams would have good goaltending. But that's not always the case. Brodeur, Roy, Rask have all benefitted from strong defense. We can see that. Hasek and Price? Not so much. There's zero to suggest that our defensive system does anything but hinder our goalie.


Because we can see that we're regularly outplayed. The numbers just quantify how bad it is.

The numbers you pick you mean. lol

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Lafleurs Guy, please tell me who you think are good coaches in the league right now and explain why.

You cannot use these criteria to base your list on:

Standing in the league right now, we are first in the East but have a bad coach.

Several years of success, what Therrien has done since he came here.

Winning 1 cup, we may win cup this year but Therrien is still a bad coach.

Babcock, we all know he is a good coach.


So excluding the points above, please tell me who the good coaches are and explain in detail.

Hitchcock, Vigneault, Babcock all come to mind off the top of my head as good coaches. I haven't googled them, haven't looked at their stats but they are coaches that always seem to get something out of their teams.

How would I define a coach as being good? I'd say he gets the most out of his team. He gets bad teams to play better than they should and gets good teams to play great. I look at the Devils over the past few seasons. Terrible over the hill roster but they always play a system that keeps things close for them. Slowly but surely they continue to get weaker and every year they get further from the playoffs, but I wouldn't expect that roster to make it. At least they are playing a good system and getting the most they can out of that lineup.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The numbers you pick you mean. lol

Only way to evaluate him properly is to remove the goaltending factor. So yes, we do only look at certain data when evaluating a coach. Why wouldn't you?