Therrien Part IV - This Time, It's Personal...

[Lafleurs Guy]

Thread title aside, don't take things personal folks... No need for folks to get banned. Just a riff on Jaws IV that's all.

That out of the way, I've heard some people say that the roster's weak, I don't agree. I think we're probably top ten and if we're not we'd certainly be above average. Our coach has a lot to work with in my opinion.

Subban, Max, Galchenyuk, Markov, Eller, Sekac, Gallagher, Beaulieu, Pleks... definitely got some talent here. I threw it out there last time and I'll throw it out again, not including goaltending are there 14 rosters better than ours? I don't think so. I think I might find ten but I'd love to hear what folks say who think we're below average though. Bottom third in shots for and against with this roster? I don't think so.

And remember folks - stay out of trouble and have fun in this thread!

Click to read more...

 

[HCH]

Thread title aside, don't take things personal folks... No need for folks to get banned. Just a riff on Jaws IV that's all.

That out of the way, I've heard some people say that the roster's weak, I don't agree. I think we're probably top ten and if we're not we'd certainly be above average. Our coach has a lot to work with in my opinion.

Subban, Max, Galchenyuk, Markov, Eller, Sekac, Gallagher, Beaulieu, Pleks... definitely got some talent here. I threw it out there last time and I'll throw it out again, not including goaltending are there 14 rosters better than ours? I don't think so. I think I might find ten but I'd love to hear what folks say who think we're below average though. Bottom third in shots for and against with this roster? I don't think so.

And remember folks - stay out of trouble and have fun in this thread!

How about after a poorly coached game, Therrien is forced to sit in the press box. He would be in fantastic shape after climbing those stairs so many times.

 

[CH25]

Would be nice if we had a coach like Barry Trotz, but the French rule won't allow it

 

[Blood On The Ice]

Good to see DD and Patches 2gether again.

Michel Therrien is actually a good coach.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

...so, odds on this getting closed before it hits 3 pages??...

 

[CH25]

It's just sad that things have to go bad before they get good again. For Therrien to be gone, something awful has to happen to this team. I don't think an early playoff exist will be enough sadly.

 

[Raimu]

Would be nice if we had a coach like Barry Trotz, but the French rule won't allow it

I'd love Alain Vigneault back personally. I think he's signed until 2018 or 2019 tho

 

[Blood On The Ice]

It's just sad that things have to go bad before they get good again. For Therrien to be gone, something awful has to happen to this team. I don't think an early playoff exist will be enough sadly.

That or maybe have more than 2 offensive threat in our entire fowards group.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That or maybe have more than 2 offensive threat in our entire fowards group.

Is DD one of those two of our only offensive threats?

Again, I'll ask... what 14 teams are there out there who are better than we are? Why don't you have faith in the capabilities of this roster?

 

[Natey]

Thanks, Michel!

 

[CH25]

Thanks, Michel!

Are you happy because your buddy DD is back on the top line ?

 

[Fozz]

So the Habs have a top-15 roster and happen to have the 7th best record in the NHL. Right where they should be, me thinks.

P.S. First in the league for GA.

 

[Blood On The Ice]

Is DD one of those two of our only offensive threats?

Again, I'll ask... what 14 teams are there out there who are better than we are? Why don't you have faith in the capabilities of this roster?

In all fairness, I only have faith in Patches and Galchenyuk to provide any offense at this point for our foward group.

I get that MT is far from the perfect coach but the biggest issue IMO is the lack of offense. Sekac is full of potential but still to green in the NHL. We need help big time. I could not care less if you put your dream line-up with Eller as your #2C, Weise on the 4th and DD in the press box. We badly need a trade.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Is DD one of those two of our only offensive threats?

Again, I'll ask... what 14 teams are there out there who are better than we are? Why don't you have faith in the capabilities of this roster?

Out of curiosity is there a reason you say 14 teams? I feel like I missed something.

 

[Nynja*]

So the Habs have a top-15 roster and happen to have the 7th best record in the NHL. Right where they should be, me thinks.

P.S. First in the league for GA.

How about GF? I'll save you the effort: 23rd

 

[HCH]

So the Habs have a top-15 roster and happen to have the 7th best record in the NHL. Right where they should be, me thinks.

P.S. First in the league for GA.

Primarily because Price has the best save percentage among goaltenders with more than 15 games played - not because they are playing a sound defensive game and limiting shots.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

How about GF? I'll save you the effort: 23rd

What is encouraging is MTL is a better ES team(ranked 16th on 5 on 5) rather than 25th on 5 on 4 PPs

Obviously, there's 4 on 4, 3 on 3, 5 on 3, etc... but I chose the two most frequent scenarios.

16th still isn't great though, we need to improve that.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

I think it's getting sad how much people are downplaying the talent of this roster in an attempt to justify the constant poor play which gets bailed out and overlooked because of Prices' exceptional play in net.

In 2-3 years' time this team won't have a 2 way veteran center as good as Plekx and they won't have a 2 way veteran elite d-man anywhere near as good as Markov.

But not sure if it matters when the coach makes an endless number of illogically dumb personnel moves and on a game to game basis establishes that there is not a worse in game manager in the entire league.

The guy completely lacks any innovation or creativity, and every single player anyone can talk about him having a positive effect on has also been following the logical trajectory of their careers (Pacioretty, Subban, Price are all in their mid 20's and it was to b eexpected they'd improve, Galchenyuk and Gallagher are 20 and 22 respectively and coming up on their 200th games soon...Beaulieu was a 1st round pick several years ago who has lots of skill, size and speed) Why are we crediting Therrien for this?

Are we also crediting him for Markov being healthy the last 2 and a half seasons? Because whenever people talk about the awful team Therrien and Bergevin inherited they seem to ignore how much time Markov missed in the troubling year(s) and what an impact that had on a team. Plus they were being suffocated cap wise on bad contracts.

Of which, by the way, Bergevin did not solve a single riddle of, unless you want to call trading dead 3.333 next year for dead 2ish (Bourque/Allen) any sort of stroke of genius. And considering Bourques' playofff last year I find it hard to believe he couldn't have gotten a 4th round pick for Bourque last Summer.

So the new regime inherited this awful team and totally turned them around.

Except the underlying numbers of the 2014/2015 Habs roster are not even significantly better than those of the 2011/2012 roster.

And there's a pretty damn good argument to be made that the biggest difference between those 2 rosters and this one are as follows:

Price has a save percentage .020 higher

Price, Pacioretty and Subban are all 3 years further along in their developmental curve.

Markov missed the first 69 games of that season and hasn't missed one yet to date this year.

Does anyone really want to argue that without Markov healthy and playing at the level he is at this team is anywhere near where they are? Yet tehy'll gladly use the standings of 2011/2012 against that team while ignoring what a massive loss he was.

Top 9 depth, top 4 depth, goaltending, overall depth on defence...

In EVERY single area this years' team blows that 2011/2012 team out of the water.

And their point total compared to that year is certainly something worth being excited about.

But look beyond the standings, and you start to see a lot of troubling numbers emerging.

How long has the power play looked predictable and stagnant? I believe it stopped working in December 2013, there have been some blips on that radar but by and large it's been a detriment outside of 2012/2013.

And what happened in 2012/2013? A healthy Markov came in and does what he always does, open up a ridiculous amount of time and space for his partner and turn him into a power play superstar.

Now maybe PK does that with or without Markov...

But one thing is for sure, at some point the rest of the NHL made adjustments and rendered the Canadiens powerplay ineffective.

People will, as always, say it's up to the players to execute...but look at Markov over his entire career. Almost every single season he had healthy since he became a regular the team was a legit high end threat on the power play.

Now, for basically 100 games it has been ineffective.

Did he lose some aspect of his game?

The list goes on and on.

Areas where players are struggling where tehy historically haven't.

The point totals are a mirage, and it will be a damn shame when this team gets ousted quickly in the playoffs because of an incompetent buffoon getting schooled by someone like Babcock.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

In all fairness, I only have faith in Patches and Galchenyuk to provide any offense at this point for our foward group.

I get that MT is far from the perfect coach but the biggest issue IMO is the lack of offense. Sekac is full of potential but still to green in the NHL. We need help big time. I could not care less if you put your dream line-up with Eller as your #2C, Weise on the 4th and DD in the press box. We badly need a trade.

Plekanec is on pace for 20+ goals and 50+ points.

He is also as good of a 2 way center as he's ever been.

The number of 20+ 50+ centers in the league is nowhere near as high as many like to believe, and if you only look at solid 2 way guys it gets a whole lot shorter.

A team with Markov/Subban as a pairing as well as Beaulieu and Gonchar in the line up should be much better at moving the puck up the ice quickly and efficiently.

But the whole team is always more or less standing around and rendering any puck moving capabilities useless.

I can't believe people watch these games and come awya thinking it's a talent issue.

There are countless teams with way less talent who every single night look like a more dangerous opponent.

Because their coaches have competent plans in place that take advantage of the assets they have.

Instead of his boneheaded strategy that somehow shockingly make this team look like the slower of the 2 opponents pretty much every single night out on the ice.

 

[HCH]

So we have a team that is well below average in preventing shots on their own goaltender and well below average in generating shots on the opponent.

That tells me that all is not well. The record would be ugly without elite goaltending - and elite goaltending alone is not likely to take them far in the playoffs.

That means addressing what is wrong with the team. Adding another player to a bad system isn't going to fix the problem even if he is a very good player.

This team needs to start playing a game where they break out of their own end as a unit rather than using those low percentage, long breakout passes that both succeed and fail in spectacular fashion. The problem is that the failure rate is higher than the success rate.

If Therrien isn't stubborn and can accept that a tactical change in the team's strategy is needed, then by all mean, keep him as coach. But his body language tells me that he is still the gruff bully that Terry Ryan described in "Tales of a First-Round Nothing"

 

[HabsDieHard*]

So we have a team that is well below average in preventing shots on their own goaltender and well below average in generating shots on the opponent.

That tells me that all is not well. The record would be ugly without elite goaltending - and elite goaltending alone is not likely to take them far in the playoffs.

That means addressing what is wrong with the team. Adding another player to a bad system isn't going to fix the problem even if he is a very good player.

This team needs to start playing a game where they break out of their own end as a unit rather than using those low percentage, long breakout passes that both succeed and fail in spectacular fashion. The problem is that the failure rate is higher than the success rate.

If Therrien isn't stubborn and can accept that a tactical change in the team's strategy is needed, then by all mean, keep him as coach. But his body language tells me that he is still the gruff bully that Terry Ryan described in "Tales of a First-Round Nothing"

And we have a faction who is intent on believiing it's part of the coaches strategy to lull them into a sense of false confidence and then take them out when they're most vulnerable.

 

[BLONG7]

So we have a team that is well below average in preventing shots on their own goaltender and well below average in generating shots on the opponent.

That tells me that all is not well. The record would be ugly without elite goaltending - and elite goaltending alone is not likely to take them far in the playoffs.

That means addressing what is wrong with the team. Adding another player to a bad system isn't going to fix the problem even if he is a very good player.

This team needs to start playing a game where they break out of their own end as a unit rather than using those low percentage, long breakout passes that both succeed and fail in spectacular fashion. The problem is that the failure rate is higher than the success rate.

If Therrien isn't stubborn and can accept that a tactical change in the team's strategy is needed, then by all mean, keep him as coach. But his body language tells me that he is still the gruff bully that Terry Ryan described in "Tales of a First-Round Nothing"

So, if most of us on here see this, and know this, why is MB letting it all go? This frustrates me to no end....good record or not, just fire the guy!!
Carey Price is the only reason right now, that we have a good record. How can anyone argue that?

 

[Nynja*]

The number of 20+ 50+ centers in the league is nowhere near as high as many like to believe, and if you only look at solid 2 way guys it gets a whole lot shorter.

Just to give this something tangible:
there were 40 Centers who potted 50 points last season. I'd say another 5 who could have probably notched 50 if they played the full 82 games:

41	Nick Bonino		ANA	C	77	22	27	49	+14
42	Mike Fisher		NSH	C	75	20	29	49	-4
43	Tyler Bozak		TOR	C	58	19	30	49	+2
45	Carl Soderberg	BOS	C	73	16	32	48	+4
49	Cody Hodgson		BUF	C	72	20	24	44	-26

All of those potted 20 goals, except Bozak who probably would have potted one more given an extra 24 games, I dont think Soderberg would have potted 4 more in 9 games.

28 players potted 20+ with 50+ points, including the 4 listed above. Elias had 18 goals in 65 games, Nuge and Krjeci had 19 in 80 games, its debatable if they would have hit 20, but I'll say they would have. That's 35 centers last season who potted (or were on pace for) 20+ goals and 50+ points.

Thats an average of one per team. ONE PER TEAM!!!

 

[Winter Eclipse]

Primarily because Price has the best save percentage among goaltenders with more than 15 games played - not because they are playing a sound defensive game and limiting shots.

But Price is part of the team, and the team is coached by Therrien, therefore the GA is a credit to Therrien's system.

What we really need is more production from our bottom 6. Is the bottom 6 coached by Therrien? Yes, so should he share the blame? No. Why? LOL 'cause Eller sucks!

Not a fan of that argument? Ok, how about the fact that our roster stinks! Look at our GF and you'll see that we seriously lack offensive firepower, how's MT supposed to overcome offensive deficiencies like that? And before you argue that our poor offensive production might not be an accurate reflection of the quality of our assets, but rather the way those assets are employed, let me point out that Eller's production on the 3rd line with Prust and Bourque or those handful of games with Galchenyuk wasn't at a PPG pace, so obviously putting him with Chucky and Sekac or reuniting EGG wouldn't work, because results with Prust/Bourque are accurate predictors of results w/ better wingers; and you can trust me on that, cause I'm a HuUUuuUuUuUuuuuUUUUuuUuuge Eller fan!!!!

Let me conclude by giving you all two things to think about:
(1) I don't like DD and I was probably the biggest opponent of the MT hiring, but gosh-darn it MT has gotten results and no one else has stepped up and outplayed DD* so this is the right call

(2)










*"Outplayed" requires a PPG pace or better while having lower quality wingers, less PP time, more defensive assignments, greater media criticism, and any other criteria Therrien or Antichambre concoct, up to and including intangibles such as "hockey IQ" or "heart". Definitions of intangibles and subjective criteria are subject to change at anytime. Offer subject to change or cancellation without notice. Offer not valid if claimed by anyone other than David Desharnais. Shots for, shots against, Corsi, Fenwick, and any other statistical measurements beyond Wins, Losses, and +/- cannot be used as qualifying evidence.

 

[mariemarie]

Would be nice if we had a coach like Barry Trotz, but the French rule won't allow it

Im french and ive considered to quit on the habs because of stupid **** like this

Fire this clown