Therrien - New Season Edition

[Mr Jackpot]

(mod) I said when the score was close, the Bolts carried the play. When a team is leading by 2 or 3 goals, they take the foot off the gas, allowing the trailing team to gain momentum and take more shots. Alternatively, the trailing team may give up, allowing the leading team to put up more shots. This is a known fact, which is why it's much more relevant to look at shot attempts when the score is close, rather than the total shot attempts over a 7 game series.

So again, with the score close, the Bolts out shot and out chanced the Habs.

again this is not true, the Bolts didn't outshot the Habs when the score was close, I mean you even put it in bold, this is amazing. You repeat something that is not true twice and you even put it in bold

Please provide links to prove that the Bolts outshot the Habs when the score was close.

And you mentionned "when a team is leading by 2 or 3 goals" again this is simply not true, the only time that the Bolts were leading by 2-3 goals was in game 2 when they scored many goals on the PP
In game #1 the score was 1-1 and the game finished in 2nd OT, in game #3 Tyler Johnson scored with one second left in regulation and after the game Jon Cooper said "We were outplayed for the last 53 minutes of the game"

 

[Smokey Thompson]

I actually looked this up on war on ice, and this isnt true.

Shots
MTL TB
6 12 G6
17 16 G5
4 4 G4
18 15 G3
12 11 G2
31 26 G1
88 84 Total

Scoring Chances
MTL TB
7 11 G6
16 25 G5
2 1 G4
28 14 G3
6 4 G2
33 32 G1
92 87 Total


Thats hardly "complete dominance" either though. These numbers are only 5v5 also

Just checked again, you're right. I forgot to set it to playoff only and was looking at regular season and playoff, which painted a much different picture lol

It's fairly even, like you said, hardly domination. I'd be interested to go more in depth and see the portion of shots from the slot vs shots from dead angles. From my eye test, we took lots of shots but from bad angles with no movement infront of the net. We made Bishop look like a superstar.

 

[Miller Time]

So it's the final score that counts, not who dominated who, or who outshot who....good!

WED, 7 OCT 2015 CANADIENS LEAFS
7:00 PM FINAL MTL (3) - TOR (1)

Do you think therrien is getting the most out of the team he has?

Did you notice any difference, structurally, with how the two teams played last night (both tactically and positionally)?

Do you think there are qualitative difference btw how a given coach prepares his team to play & execute the game plan?



Jean Perron won a cup. ANY coach could win a cup. The question at hand is simply wether or not Therrien is giving this lineup the best chance to succeed.

Seems like there is a lot of solid arguments being put forward to suggest he isn't. The main argument in favour seems to be DA record. Do you have anything beyond that to put forwarf?

 

[Smokey Thompson]

again this is not true, the Bolts didn't outshot the Habs when the score was close, I mean you even put it in bold, this is amazing. You repeat something that is not true twice and you even put it in bold

Please provide links to prove that the Bolts outshot the Habs when the score was close.

And you mentionned "when a team is leading by 2 or 3 goals" again this is simply not true, the only time that the Bolts were leading by 2-3 goals was in game 2 when they scored many goals on the PP
In game #1 the score was 1-1 and the game finished in 2nd OT, in game #3 Tyler Johnson scored with one second left in regulation and after the game Jon Cooper said "We were outplayed for the last 53 minutes of the game"

View my above post. I was looking at regular season and playoff stats together, and the Habs got crushed during the regular season vs Tampa. However, possession was very close and the Habs did not dominate with the score close.

Again, while we took a lot of shots, they were low percentage shots from bad angles with no movement in front of the net. On the other hand, when the Bolts needed to score, they'd take shots from the slot with a lot of movement infront of the net and they'd get it done.

 

[Nynja*]

Patch Chucky Plek Gally Eller, your point?

 

[Mr Jackpot]

I did. Unless Patches and Galchenyuk are not top 6 players..

Let's use some facts, here are the top scoring forwards for the last 5 cup winning teams:

2014-15

Patrick Kane 23 11 12 23 pts
Jonathan Toews 23 10 11 21 pts
Marian Hossa 23 4 13 17 pts
Patrick Sharp 23 5 10 15 pts

2013-14

Anze Kopitar 26 5 21 26 pts
Justin Williams 26 9 16 25 pts
Jeff Carter 26 10 15 25 pts
Marian Gaborik 26 14 8 22 pts

2012-13

Patrick Kane 23 9 10 19 pts
Bryan Bickell 23 9 8 17 pts
Patrick Sharp 23 10 6 16 pts
Marian Hossa 22 7 9 16 pts

2011-12

Dustin Brown 20 8 12 20 pts
Anze Kopitar 20 8 12 20 pts
Mike Richards 20 4 11 15 pts
Justin Williams 20 4 11 15 pts

2010-11

David Krejci 25 12 11 23 pts
Patrice Bergeron 23 6 14 20 pts
Brad Marchand 25 11 8 19 pts
Michael Ryder 25 8 9 17 pts

The Habs are not even close to that, how can someone thinks we are close to winning a cup.

To win the Cup, we would need something like:

Pacio 23 games 21 points
Galch 23 games 20 points
Plekanec 23 games 18 points
Gallagher 23 games 17 points

We're not even close to having that.

The only thing we can do is HOPE that we will have that in the future

 

[Mr Jackpot]

Again, while we took a lot of shots, they were low percentage shots from bad angles with no movement in front of the net. On the other hand, when the Bolts needed to score, they'd take shots from the slot with a lot of movement infront of the net and they'd get it done.

Yes of course the whole "Habs shots were bad quality, Bolts shots were quality shots"

Did you forget about the 12 goal posts that the Habs hit in the 2nd round against the Bolts?

I mean seriously this is way too funny "low percentage shots from bad angles.... On the other hand, when the Bolts needed to score, they'd take shots from the slot"

 

[Smokey Thompson]

Yes of course the whole "Habs shots were bad quality, Bolts shots were quality shots"

Did you forgot about the 12 goal posts that the Habs hit?

I mean seriously this is way too funny "low percentage shots from bad angles.... On the other hand, when the Bolts needed to score, they'd take shots from the slot"

What percentage of our shots were from the slot compared to the Bolts? We have Price, they had Bishop. If our shot quality was the same then there's no reason we should've lost.

Maybe if we had a half decent PP we could've put in the extra goals needed to beat the Bolts, but again the coaching staff failed to address the PP..

 

[Mr Jackpot]

Dude you are just too much.

 

[Jaynki]

When analyzing scoring chances, time of possession, etc... IMO, this relieve more of the talent on the ice than the quality of the coaching staff.

We all know that Price is the reason we have that success and without him our line-up is average.

This being said, we play like an average team who has the best keeper. As simple as that.

What i really appreciate from Therrien tho, is that he build a very strong chemistry in his team. The Montreal Canadiens have a strong leadership core and it seems like a solid group of players who all appreciate to play for the team. Therrien deserve a lot of credit for being able to keep his group tight and get the maximum out of his best players almost every night.

I honestly don't think that there is a coach in the NHL who has a ''miracle system'' where with the habs line-up, we would totally outshoot and outscore chicago, sorry.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

If our shot quality was the same then there's no reason we should've lost.

If the Bolts have better offensive talent than we have, yes there is a reason we lost.

What about the top three centers for the Bolts are Stamkos, Johnson and Fillpula and our top 3 centers are Plek, DD and Eller?

You never realized that in the 2nd round, the Habs had many scoring opportunities but our players couldn't put the puck behind the net because of lack of offensive talent? You don't remember all the scoring chances by Eller, Gallagher, Plek?

And you still don't realize that the Habs hit 12 goal posts in the 6 game series.

 

[Runner77]

What i really appreciate from Therrien tho, is that he build a very strong chemistry in his team. The Montreal Canadiens have a strong leadership core and it seems like a solid group of players who all appreciate to play for the team. Therrien deserve a lot of credit for being able to keep his group tight and get the maximum out of his best players almost every night.

How do we know this about Therrien unless we're in the room? Seems like a very subjective appreciation.

Most observers will tell you, as a general rule, that in any room, one third will be diehards favoring the coach, another third will not buy in and the final third are typically neutral. I have not seen any evidence showing that the Habs' room is any different or that it has any more "chemistry" than others.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

I have not seen any evidence showing that the Habs' room is any different or that it has any more "chemistry" than others.

He never said anything about other teams, he said:

"very strong chemistry in his team" and
"The Montreal Canadiens have a strong leadership core"

And he's right. His whole post is good.

 

[Jaynki]

How do we know this about Therrien unless we're in the room? Seems like a very subjective appreciation.

Most observers will tell you, as a general rule, that in any room, one third will be diehards favoring the coach, another third will not buy in and the final third are typically neutral. I have not seen any evidence showing that the Habs' room is any different or that it has any more "chemistry" than others.

It seems like a frequent things that every time a new player arrive in the last 4 years, he seems impressed by the tightness of the group.

I understand when you say it's a subjective appreciation but denying it would be as subjective

 

[OnTheRun]

Not sure why you keep rambling about the 12 goal posts. A shot on the post is just as good as a shot in the windows behind the net, both have 100% failure rate.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Let's use some facts, here are the top scoring forwards for the last 5 cup winning teams:

2014-15

Patrick Kane 23 11 12 23 pts
Jonathan Toews 23 10 11 21 pts
Marian Hossa 23 4 13 17 pts
Patrick Sharp 23 5 10 15 pts

2013-14

Anze Kopitar 26 5 21 26 pts
Justin Williams 26 9 16 25 pts
Jeff Carter 26 10 15 25 pts
Marian Gaborik 26 14 8 22 pts

2012-13

Patrick Kane 23 9 10 19 pts
Bryan Bickell 23 9 8 17 pts
Patrick Sharp 23 10 6 16 pts
Marian Hossa 22 7 9 16 pts

2011-12

Dustin Brown 20 8 12 20 pts
Anze Kopitar 20 8 12 20 pts
Mike Richards 20 4 11 15 pts
Justin Williams 20 4 11 15 pts

2010-11

David Krejci 25 12 11 23 pts
Patrice Bergeron 23 6 14 20 pts
Brad Marchand 25 11 8 19 pts
Michael Ryder 25 8 9 17 pts

The Habs are not even close to that, how can someone thinks we are close to winning a cup.

To win the Cup, we would need something like:

Pacio 23 games 21 points
Galch 23 games 20 points
Plekanec 23 games 18 points
Gallagher 23 games 17 points

We're not even close to having that.

The only thing we can do is HOPE that we will have that in the future

Our forwards are as good or better than that Bruins team. Our defense is better than that Bruins team and our goaltending is as good or better than that Bruins team.

What we don't have is coaching. We have bad systems and bad roster management. That's what kills us. Other than that we've got a great team.

I look at our team and compare it to the '93 club. Our forwards aren't that far off our defense is better and we've got best in league goaltending. Compared with other cup winners it stacks up against the weaker teams that have won. I'd take this roster over the Boston one from a few years back. I'd take it over Carolina's, I'd take it over Tampa's.

For 20 years I've watched as fans of this team would overrate our roster. I knew we were not close to being a real contender. And now that we actually are contenders, it's hilarious to see people trying to downplay the roster in order to defend the coach.

Again, no matter how you slice it this team shouldn't be below average everywhere but that's exactly what we've been. Fortunatley we've got Price to save the day. Price is more deserving of the Jack Adams than Therrien is...

 

[Runner77]

He never said anything about other teams, he said:

"very strong chemistry in his team" and
"The Montreal Canadiens have a strong leadership core"

And he's right. His whole post is good.

I know perfectly well what he wrote, I don't need an interpretation.

I don't agree with his take, it's highly subjective and I stand by my comments. You can't know that stuff unless you're in the room.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

Our forwards are as good or better than that Bruins team.

You want to compare DD to Krejci and Plekanec to Bergeron who is a Conn Smythe candidate?

Krejci - Bergeron

vs

DD - Plekanec

Just think about it for a second. We're not in the same universe.

 

[Runner77]

It seems like a frequent things that every time a new player arrive in the last 4 years, he seems impressed by the tightness of the group.

I understand when you say it's a subjective appreciation but denying it would be as subjective

I hear you. However, what else will a new player say? It's one of the most overused cliches out there. You want to endear yourself to your new teammates, then the default position is "this is a great group of guys" or an assortment of similar accolades.

 

[BLONG7]

With the team we have, we should play better hockey...our coaching is bad guys, really bad, and if Price ever gets injured, MT will be exposed, big time...it's really that simple.
We are an awful team to watch, just awful, we rope a dope most nights, and Price saves the day, and we win 2-1 or 1-0 just awful hockey to watch.

I know it's a results orientated business, and we get some results, but when the chips are down, we can't score because other coaches figure us out, and our coaches don't know how to react to that..........

Price must be frustrated some nights...

 

[BLONG7]

You want to compare DD to Krejci and Plekanec to Bergeron who is a Conn Smythe candidate?

Krejci - Bergeron

vs

DD - Plekanec

Just think about it for a second. We're not in the same universe.

And yet, MT continued to use DD, alot...face it man, our coach couldn't win a Cup with Crosby and Malkin...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You want to compare DD to Krejci and Plekanec to Bergeron who is a Conn Smythe candidate?

Krejci - Bergeron

vs

DD - Plekanec

Just think about it for a second. We're not in the same universe.

Who matches up against Paccioretty on their side? Michael Ryder? Lucic?

Krejci, Bergeron, Lucic, Ryder, Marchand... or Plek, Galchenyuk, Eller, Max, Semin, Gallagher...

It's a comparable group and I'll take Montreal's group thanks. The only gamebreaker they've got is Seguin and he was a kid who was nowhere near the player he is now. Galchenyuk's better now than he was then. Hell, we came within a goal of beating them that year with a far weaker roster than we have now.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

And yet, MT continued to use DD, alot...face it man, our coach couldn't win a Cup with Crosby and Malkin...

This is what Therrien have to work with, DD. And btw DD finished 110th among forwards in the league for ice-time in 2014-15, so it's not like that DD is getting the most ice-time.

Now that Galchenyuk is 21 years old, he starts the year at center and he has a chance to demonstrate that he's at the same level as Krejci, this is yet to be done. Not just Krejci but I mean Galch has to demonstrate that he's part of the elite among other centers in the league. We need an elite center to win the Cup, a center that can dominate the opposition and can score something like 21 points in 23 playoffs games.

And even if someday Galch arrive at Krejci level, we still don't have a Bergeron.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This is what Therrien have to work with, DD.

He doesn't have to use DD at all. He's chosen to use him. We don't need this guy and he shouldn't be eating up near the minutes he does. He's put a middling player in a prime role. Why? No idea.

Again, this is a coaching decision. Just like using Cube on the PP was a coaching decision.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

Who matches up against Paccioretty on their side? Michael Ryder? Lucic?

Krejci, Bergeron, Lucic, Ryder, Marchand... or Plek, Galchenyuk, Eller, Max, Semin, Gallagher...

You're talking about Pacio who average 0.56 pts a game in the playoffs?

You're talking about Galch who had 4 pts in 12 playoffs games?

You're really wanna compare the duo of Krejci/Bergeron to the duo of DD/Plek?

And did you really talk about Semin?