Theo Fleury and the HOF debate

[SportsPhan8]

He was eligible for the hockey hall of fame in 2006, and has yet to be enshrined.

Should he be in it?

455 goals
633 assists
1088 points
Averaged more than a point per game
Was not only a goal scorer but intimidating, too [averaged 139 penalty minutes]

If you average out his five best seasons, in terms of adjusted points, per 82 games, he averaged 107 points per game

Had 79 playoff points in 77 games

-Made 7 all-star games [91-92, 96-99, 01]
-One season with second NHL all-star team honors [95]
-1 season with 50+ goals
-4 seasons with 40+ goals
-2 100+ points seasons
-4 90+ points seasons
-2 top five Hart Trophy finishes
-Ranks 66th all time in adjusted points [1111]
-On Hockey Reference, has similar scores to 3 HOFs [Shanahan, Kerri, and Trottier]

Does he belong in the hall?

 

[Huokaus]

I think he could get in eventually in a weak year, but off-ice stuff + not THAT impressive career when considering the lack of personal hardware and achievements has kept him off so far.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

His personality keeps him out for a while, I think. Yeah, I know he had some troubling times in his life, but the guy is, and always was, a bit of a donkey.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He simply wasn't a top tier star in his own day, and I'm not sure he was even second-tier for more than a couple of years. I have a hard time seeing it.

 

[Eisen]

He simply wasn't a top tier star in his own day, and I'm not sure he was even second-tier for more than a couple of years. I have a hard time seeing it.

Same here, but there are worse players in. He wouldn't be in my Hall, but I can see him getting in the real Hall.

 

[sr edler]

He was definitely on Shanahan and Recchi level in terms of overall impact. Recchi was a bit better point producer and Shanahan more physical, but Fleury was a better defensive and special teams player. Personally I would go with him over both if I built a team. Team Canada also always picked Fleury over Recchi.

 

[sr edler]

He simply wasn't a top tier star in his own day, and I'm not sure he was even second-tier for more than a couple of years. I have a hard time seeing it.

From 1993 to 1995 he had three appearances in the playoffs where he had 36 points in 20 games, and well above PPG in the RS, but his teammates couldn't help him out of the first round. Vernon, Suter, MacInnis, Nieuwendyk. He was pretty close to a being a top tier star, and most definitely a high caliber second tier star. The guy is underrated.

 

[Anton13]

He simply wasn't a top tier star in his own day, and I'm not sure he was even second-tier for more than a couple of years. I have a hard time seeing it.

He represented Canada in four best-on-best tournaments. That alone tells he was elite for a long time. And he was a flashy and unique player. Definitely more of a star than many actual hhof inductees.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Theo is an underrated guy.

I'm on the fence on whether he should be in or not but I lean towards being in.. he was a pretty special player being his size and playing the way he did.

 

[The Panther]

What I always say about Fleury is that his conduct keeps him out. Just based on on-ice play, he's at least borderline, maybe "in". I mean I can certainly see his case -- the 4 'best-on-best' appearances, stats, and solid playoffs. I think his biggest achievement is simply being the #1 guy on The Flames from about 1995 to 1999 (and co-top guy for a few more years prior).

It's not the drugs and the team-problems that keep Theo out; I think it's his tendency to throw everyone he played with/for under the bus. Usually, players that are as outspoken as he will have to wait a few years for things to cool down, and then, if deserving, they'll get their due. But in Theo's case, by publishing his downright nasty book a few years ago (and flogging it, considerably), I think he re-reminded the Hall committee of what an ass he can be.

 

[MXD]

For all I care he'd probably be the first guy I'd get in the HHOF tomorrow.

 

[trentmccleary]

If you average out his five best seasons, in terms of adjusted points, per 82 games, he averaged 107 points per game

I count 97 points per 82 games. Did you adjust the games played properly?

My opinion is similar to most here. He's a bubble guy with an acidic personality that will probably keep him out. So I'd induct similar guys with less baggage or Tom Barrasso, who I don't think is a bubble guy and should be in.

 

[threetimer*]

I have this (dumb) idea that when it comes to the HOF, one should ask "is player X in?"

And unless the answer is a clear, loud, joyful and sanguine "YES!", player X should not get inducted. If you have to think twice, NO!

But then there come guys like Fleury.

When I ask my heart / gut, I would put Fleury in. Not only would I put him in. I would pick him over St. Louis!

But brains says "hold it!" and starts reasoning.

Not sure, so probably NO!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Significantly better player than Dino Ciccarelli, but then again, you could say that about a lot of guys currently on the outside looking in.

I think Kariya is a bigger omission if we are strictly talking undersized Canadian wingers. But I wouldn't mind Fluery getting in

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think Kariya is a bigger omission if we are strictly talking undersized Canadien wingers. But I wouldn't mind Fluery getting in

Agreed. Kariya is a definite yes for me based on his talent level pre-Sutering. Fleury is more bubble but I lean towards him making it.

 

[Voight]

Yes, 100%. Unfortunately the child-abuse stuff with Graham James has hurt him in recent years, thanks to the old boys club mentality of the committee.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

a very very memorable player. that, plus his borderline resume, gets him in in my books.

one what if for fleury: if iginla hadn't come along, and if that iginla/kipper 2004 flames team never happened, and the flames were superstar-less from the late 90s through the second lockout like the oilers were during the doug weight era, i think there's a good chance fleury is already in as the face of the franchise. unlucky for him that iginla came along to break his records and eclipse him as mr. calgary flame.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

my other two cents on fleury and the HHOF, conversations we have had many times in the past:

this is why i think fleury should be at least a strong HHOF candidate:

today was the first time a player who actually accomplished meaningful things in a canucks uniform made it into the HHOF. you can't begin to overestimate what that means to vancouver fans. one fan on the canucks board said she cried on the bus when she heard.

basically, bure getting in validates our hockey watching experiences. our love for those early 90s teams, the superhuman things we saw bure do, those are no longer just our memories. they have become legitimized as memories and experiences that matter in the grand scheme of things. to a habs fan, guy lafleur getting in doesn't make a whole of difference. but to a canucks fan, bure getting in makes a huge difference.

i think you get the same thing with sundin and swedish hockey fans.

in a sense, this is an argument for the hockey hall of fame acknowledging the importance of regionalism, and the history/memories/experiences of specific underrepresented cities and countries.

now, obviously if fleury got in next year, he wouldn't be the first nor the last flame to get in. but to calgary fans of a certain age, he was the greatest flame of all. greater than lanny, chopper, and iginla. or if nothing else, he arguably means more to calgary fans as any of those guys, including iginla.

there are few guys that resonate with a fanbase on that kind of meaningful level. to mention only guys who are debatable HHOF choices: neely in boston, bure in vancouver, sundin in sweden -- and i suspect federko in st. louis and langway in washington could be added to that list, but i'm not sure.

i just saw the senna documentary. what senna meant to brazil, what pacquiao means to the philippines, what ali, jim brown, and bill russell mean to african-americans, to me that's the most meaningful thing in sports. what i'm talking about for the HHOF would be analogous but on a smaller scale.

and that's why it doesn't make sense to look at fleury's career and ask, "why fleury and not mogilny?" because mogilny, nieuwendyk, and turgeon never captured a city/country's imagination and no city or country ever saw themselves in what that one guy did on the ice. tarheelhockey, you're a carolina fan. imagine if ron francis had never played in pittsburgh and spent his entire career in the whalers/canes organization. maybe he retires with andreychuk stats and no individual honours or top five finishes. i think you would still argue that he belongs in the hall of fame and i think you would be right.

re fleury, the reason he isn't in yet is because the people involved are still alive. i'm not talking about graham james, i'm talking about various other aiders, abetters, and blind eye-turners up and down the ranks of canadian minor and junior hockey. if fleury were to be inducted today, tomorrow there would be a million articles over the next months up to induction week about the things that happened to him. and if you don't think that is an an embarassment to hockey canada that the old boys club will help prevent, then you don't know the old boys club.

but someday, fleury will get in. even if his on-ice case is borderline, his notoriety and inspirational story make him a slam dunk.

so for the purposes of this thread, off ice circumstances hurt him in the short term, but will help him in the long run.

 

[Big Phil]

A fence sitter if there ever was one. I have a soft spot for Fleury, so I like him in there. If I look at it objectively is he still in? Personally I think so. His off-ice stuff has hurt him so far I think. I think the longer things go the longer our memories fade on that though, which is a good thing. I don't think the Graham James thing hurt him, if anything it made you understand why he acted a certain way, but there were a lot of bridges Fleury has burned over time and he's got to own that regardless of the awful things James did. I'll say that he has a bit of a Barrasso syndrome. In other words, he's in if he is as wholesome as someone like Curtis Joseph, and I think Fleury fits that mold.

 

[Voight]

Fleury was arguably the face of the Flames for a decade, from after the cup to when he was traded and Iginla became a star player. Yes he did have his problems, but most of those came during his Ranger days and had a lot to do with the serious abuse encountered as a minor/junior hockey player.

I would induct him after Kariya and way before LeClair and Turgeron.

 

[Neutrinos]

Considering what Fleury went through in minor hockey, it's quite commendable that he was able to achieve the things he did

He's a borderline case, but since he's better than some that have already been enshrined, I'm inclined to lean towards induction

 

[NickyFotiu]

Definitely gets my vote. He was better than his stats even say. His speed and shot made his size not even a issue. Guy also had guts.

 

[Zegras Zebra]

This may be a strange thing to say but does anyone think that Fleury's drug/ alcohol abuse, gambling problems, and demons of his past abuse makes his career seem more impressive? Think about it how talented must he of been to have a coke addiction, stay up all night at strip clubs and still be one of the best players in the NHL during his New York days?

The numbers seem to say he is a borderline player, and he seemed to upset the type of people who vote for the HHOF (the old boys club), but I think he will get in eventually as time goes by because newer voters would be more willing to sympathize with the emotions he was dealing with during his playing days than current voters.

 

[The Panther]

This may be a strange thing to say but does anyone think that Fleury's drug/ alcohol abuse, gambling problems, and demons of his past abuse makes his career seem more impressive? Think about it how talented must he of been to have a coke addiction, stay up all night at strip clubs and still be one of the best players in the NHL during his New York days?

The numbers seem to say he is a borderline player, and he seemed to upset the type of people who vote for the HHOF (the old boys club), but I think he will get in eventually as time goes by because newer voters would be more willing to sympathize with the emotions he was dealing with during his playing days than current voters.

Again, the problem Fleury faces (in my view) is not his drug/alcohol problems -- I think people are more than happy if he is fully recovered and it will make a great feel-good story for the Hall of Fame to congratulate itself on.

The problem for Fleury is his habit to dis half the people he played with and for. If you read his book -- a product of his sobriety --, every other page is telling someone off, insulting coaches he played for, denigrating the integrity of Canadian hockey culture, and sniping in general at anyone he crossed paths with. This is why the "old boys' club" doesn't like him, and I can understand it.

 

[quoipourquoi]

If he hadn't relapsed in 2000-01, he'd have that one signature season where people would say he was one of the top 2 or 3 players in the game. A real shame. I think he's a HOFer anyway.