The Reason to Stay Positive

[johnny_rudeboy]

Can have a look closer in time with the prospect ranking from 2012.

#1 Florida Panthers

Strengths: With NHL talent heading every position–some of whom have All-Star potential, the Florida Panthers are set to open the tap on a stream of prospects that will start pouring into south Florida for the foreseeable future. In fact, the system is so loaded with talent, the Panthers could split off a second team entirely and have a somewhat competitive squad based only on prospects. Jonathan Huberdeau, Nick Bjugstad, and Quinton Howden supply firepower, size, and speed up front, while Colby Robak and Alex Petrovic top the blue line corps. In the nets, Jacob Markstrom is arguably the best netminder in the world outside of the NHL.

Weaknesses: Right wing lacks true scoring punch, and the defense, though well-stocked with two-way players, is also short on pure offensive threats. After moving Tyler Plante and Marc Cheverie last offseason, the goaltending depth is thin, though University of Denver backstop Sam Brittain is a promising talent.

Top 5 Prospects: 1. Jonathan Huberdeau, LW, 2. Jacob Markstrom, G, 3. Nick Bjugstad, C, 4. Quinton Howden, LW, 5. Colby Robak, D.
Lost to Graduation: Erik Gudbranson, Michal Repik.

Conclusion: Markstrom might not live up to the early hype but he is still very young. Huberdeau and Bjugstad are already first line material. Howden is still finding his feet at the NHL level. And Robak might make it as an NHL or he might not. Petrovic is a solid NHLer. Their ranking in the top was well deserved.


#2 Minnesota Wild

Strengths: The Wild prospect pool is stacked with top-end talent, most notably at forward. Mikael Granlund is one of the top prospects in the world and is set to make his pro debut next season. Charlie Coyle and Zack Phillips are also potential top-six forwards, while Jason Zucker, Johan Larsson, and Brett Bulmer should all be top-nine contributors. Left-wingers Eric Haula and Mario Lucia also have long-term upside. 2011 First round draft pick Jonas Brodin is a blue-chip defense prospect while Matt Hackett headlines a talented quartet of goaltenders.

Weaknesses: There isn't much to not like about the Wild system, though there is steep drop off in talent after Brodin amongst Wild defense prospects. Former first round pick Tyler Cuma can't stay healthy and aside from Chay Genoway, the other defenseman in the organization project mostly as third-pairing or depth type defenseman.

Top 5 Prospects: 1. Mikael Granlund, C, 2. Charlie Coyle, RW. 3. Jonas Brodin, D, 4. Matt Hackett, G, 5. Zack Phillips, C.
Lost to Graduation: Justin Falk, Marco Scandella, Nick Palmieri, Jared Spurgeon.

Conclusion: Granlund is developing nicely and is already a 2nd liner and perhaps he stay there but still a good player. Coyle is progressing nicely and Brodin is already a top pairing defenseman. Phillips is also still an interesting prospect.




#18 Toronto Maple Leafs

Strengths: As a credit to the increased strength of the prospect pool, the organization has survived the loss of three top prospects without losing much depth. There are several forwards pushing hard for both scoring and checking roles and several defenders who will contend for a spot in training camp. The Toronto Marlies were an AHL powerhouse this year and the addition of Brad Ross and Greg McKegg could make them even better next.

Weaknesses: There aren't any blue chip goaltending prospects in the pipeline. Behind the recently graduated Gardiner there is little in the way of puck movers on the blue line. Projections for their top forwards prospects fall short of the first line mark at the moment.

Top 5 Prospects: 1. Nazem Kadri, C, 2. Joe Colborne, C, 3. Matt Frattin, RW 4.Carter Ashton, LW 5. Jesse Blacker, D.
Lost to Graduation: Jake Gardiner, James Reimer.

Conclusion: We improved our rankings from previous years and with Kadri and Colborne in the pool that was a given. Kadri is developing nicely in to a playmaking 2nd line center. Colborne did well this season at Calgary. Still question marks regarding the rest. Us being in the middle seem legit with Kadri in the system but no top pairing or top line players and not much better depth then most other teams means no top ranking.






So the prospect pool rankings to matters seeing as a healthy club can promote players from it and improve their NHL team. With a poor prospect pool the chances of improving from within is of course much less. And when it comes to trades it is often the case that if you send away highly rated prospects you can get a better return back. Pretty simple logic.

 

[Banic]

Absolutely Agree. Our pool has definitely made improvements but still has a long way to go. We are not in a position to move picks, so why are we?

 

[Drew75]

No, they're saying that the Leafs' scout NEVER unearth a gem while many other teams do which is true. Leafs' scout are definitely in the bottom 1/3 of the league, and probably bottom 1/6. They are awful and amateur scouting needs to be dramatically upgraded if the Leafs hope to do better in the future. Bring in a new director of scouting; hire one of the chief scouts from a team that drafts well like Chicago, LA, San Jose, St. Louis, Detroit, etc. Hire one of those teams' scouts as our new director of amateur scouting. That would be an incredibly wise step towards rebuilding this pathetic organization.

LA has a great scouting department - but Chicago built most of their team pre-2006 under the direction of Bob Pulford, and aside from Shaw & Saad, have not really drafted anyone of note outside of top 3 picks since. is that a "Great" scouting department? You would think if they're so good, they would get at least a few more pieces.

ST Louis has not drafted a single player of note outside of the first round since pre-2006. I don't call that "talented scouts".

There are many factors involved with rating scouting departments, and I'm not saying that the Leafs are the best (LA is), but I think it's easy to cherry pick in hindsight, look at only part of the picture, and make an argument to suit your needs.

Edit: SHL rookie of the year, QMJHL MVP (I believe), Captains Award, OHL Player of the year - all players drafted OUTSIDE of the first round.

 

[Banic]

LA has a great scouting department - but Chicago built most of their team pre-2006 under the direction of Bob Pulford, and aside from Shaw & Saad, have not really drafted anyone of note outside of top 3 picks since. is that a "Great" scouting department? You would think if they're so good, they would get at least a few more pieces.

ST Louis has not drafted a single player of note outside of the first round since pre-2006. I don't call that "talented scouts".

There are many factors involved with rating scouting departments, and I'm not saying that the Leafs are the best (LA is), but I think it's easy to cherry pick in hindsight, look at only part of the picture, and make an argument to suit your needs.

Edit: SHL rookie of the year, QMJHL MVP (I believe), Captains Award, OHL Player of the year - all players drafted OUTSIDE of the first round.

We will see if their success translates over, but our prospects seem to be doing better. We just have to stop trading picks.

 

[Drew75]

We will see if their success translates over, but our prospects seem to be doing better. We just have to stop trading picks.

Agreed.

We're taking longer with our prospects now, but when you go back, there are a good number who are developing ahead of projection at the time of their draft.

 

[charliolemieux]

Within 7 years? Ok. Well depth prospects should take 3-5 years to develop. Continuing the trend, Reilly Smith in 09 (3rd round I believe) Brett Ritchie in 11 (a 2nd rounder, made the JR team and is on pace, still young you see im not impatient) and Nishushin in 13 (a first rounder whose alrdy in the top 6).

It is hard to find prospects, but certain teams keep doing it. Maybe they draft more often? Then don't trade draft picks.

Jesus.

Ritchie's best year in OHL 76pts. We just had a 6th round pick score 128pts. But Ritchie counts as a win and our pick doesn't count at all.

Nichushkin could have gone top 5. Getting him at 10 was more a product of him being Russian than being a win. And again we have a 2012 pick playing the hardest position to learn, but that doesn't count in your myopic view of the situation.

Smith is a good pick. Of course he was put in a position to succeed in Boston. Let's see him keep it up for a bit. Kulemin had a season better than what Smith just had and we all have seen how he has done since then.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

Outside of the top few draft picks, the draft is simply a gamble. I agree that the Maple Leafs had gone with brawn over skill a few times these past few years but its asinine to expect any organization to draft an impact player on a whim. Some do, some don't; Some have also had the luxury of drafting higher than others.

If you really wanted to do some in depth analysis you'd tally the draft positions in the first two rounds and the team with the lowest numbers will have had the highest picks (#31 for no pick in the 1st round), and then see how teams' picks relative to their draft positions turned out. I'm not gonna do the dirty work but I would wager that over the last decade the Leafs have selected later in the first two rounds than most other teams and, despite that handicap, have drafted relatively well in the latter rounds to produce NHLers. Had they had their own picks in '09 and '10 we wouldn't be having this conversation because they would have finally had an opportunity to draft a top-2 talent and stocked the cupboards with another top-10 pick.

Over the last 15 years the Leafs have drafted in the top-10 a grand-total of 4 times (Antropov in '98, Schenn in '08, Kadri in '09, and Rielly in '12). Notice how those top-10 picks turned out to be NHLers that either contributed to the Maple Leafs or were deemed valuable by other organizations? You simply can't expect the scouting staff to churn out NHLers when it doesn't get the opportunity to draft the higher-end talent. SMH

 

[hotpaws]

Agreed.

We're taking longer with our prospects now, but when you go back, there are a good number who are developing ahead of projection at the time of their draft.

We're not taking any longer with our picks , Reilly made it as a teenager just like Schenn. We're just using that as an excuse to defend our mediocre drafts from 2008-10.

 

[hotpaws]

Outside of the top few draft picks, the draft is simply a gamble. I agree that the Maple Leafs had gone with brawn over skill a few times these past few years but its asinine to expect any organization to draft an impact player on a whim. Some do, some don't; Some have also had the luxury of drafting higher than others.

If you really wanted to do some in depth analysis you'd tally the draft positions in the first two rounds and the team with the lowest numbers will have had the highest picks (#31 for no pick in the 1st round), and then see how teams' picks relative to their draft positions turned out. I'm not gonna do the dirty work but I would wager that over the last decade the Leafs have selected later in the first two rounds than most other teams and, despite that handicap, have drafted relatively well in the latter rounds to produce NHLers. Had they had their own picks in '09 and '10 we wouldn't be having this conversation because they would have finally had an opportunity to draft a top-2 talent and stocked the cupboards with another top-10 pick.

How many times do you have to be told we have drafted exactly one solid NHL player outside of the top 10 since 07 as well as a couple of meh players in Frattin-Hayes.

Instead of spewing mindless drivel about what you believe , why don't take the time to actually do the research yourself instead of waiting to be proved wrong again and then ignoring it to post more random non sense .

Also if the draft is such a crap shoot then why waste money on a scouting dept ? You're list of excuses is endless and now's the time to realize you're wrong and quietly exit this thread .

 

[hotpaws]

Over the last 15 years the Leafs have drafted in the top-10 a grand-total of 4 times (Antropov in '98, Schenn in '08, Kadri in '09, and Rielly in '12). Notice how those top-10 picks turned out to be NHLers that either contributed to the Maple Leafs or were deemed valuable by other organizations? You simply can't expect the scouting staff to churn out NHLers when it doesn't get the opportunity to draft the higher-end talent. SMH

We also traded the 2nd-Seguin and 9th-Hamilton picks as well but the discussion was never about the top 10 but why we arn't finding talent later in the draft .

You're now trying to shift the discussion to defend your position that we've drafted well in the lower rounds because you'll finally realized you're wrong .

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

How many times do you have to be told we have drafted exactly one solid NHL player outside of the top 10 since 07 as well as a couple of meh players in Frattin-Hayes.

Instead of spewing mindless drivel about what you believe , why don't take the time to actually do the research yourself instead of waiting to be proved wrong again and then ignoring it to post more random non sense .

Also if the draft is such a crap shoot then why waste money on a scouting dept ? You're list of excuses is endless and now's the time to realize you're wrong and quietly exist this thread .

Why are you still indexing 2007? Don't you know its better to look at the big picture (rhetorical, we know you don't). Its unfortunate that the Maple Leafs didn't draft well from a period spanning 2007 to 2011 (lets give our 2012 and 2013 picks some time). Actually, give Leivo, McKegg, Grannberg, Carrick, and D'Amigo some more time before entirely writing off the late selections in that 4 year period.

The Leafs drafted Modin, Berezin, Markov, Kaberle, Thornton, Ponikarovsky, Wellwood, White, Mitchell, Stralman, and Stalberg in the 3rd round, or later, and these are all guys who saw, or are on pace to see, 400+ games in the NHL. A lot of depth there but its simply stupid to expect home-runs in the latter rounds like Zetterberg, or Datsyuk even once every decade. The Maple Leafs seem to average close to one NHLer who plays 5+ seasons ever year in the latter rounds (period from '94 to '06), thats impressive. As far as drafting as a whole goes, they have not been able to draft higher-end prospects because they don't draft in the top-10 too often.

 

[hotpaws]

Why are you still indexing 2007? Don't you know its better to look at the big picture (rhetorical, we know you don't). Its unfortunate that the Maple Leafs didn't draft well from a period spanning 2007 to 2011 (lets give our 2012 and 2013 picks some time).

I haven't written off off our most recent picks and that's why i excluded them from the discussion .

I originally said the last good draft outside of the top 10 we had was 06 and then you started how us drafting poorly was a myth .

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

I haven't written off off our most recent picks and that's why i excluded them from the discussion .

I originally said the last good draft outside of the top 10 we had was 06 and then you started how us drafting poorly was a myth .

It is a myth. Its unfair to **** on team's junior scouting department for a 4 year period where they didn't draft NHL players outside of the first two rounds, especially considering some of those selections are still developing and we have discussions about where they might fit on the roster in due time. You're being either disingenuous or asinine.

 

[Banic]

Jesus.

Ritchie's best year in OHL 76pts. We just had a 6th round pick score 128pts. But Ritchie counts as a win and our pick doesn't count at all.

Nichushkin could have gone top 5. Getting him at 10 was more a product of him being Russian than being a win. And again we have a 2012 pick playing the hardest position to learn, but that doesn't count in your myopic view of the situation.

Smith is a good pick. Of course he was put in a position to succeed in Boston. Let's see him keep it up for a bit. Kulemin had a season better than what Smith just had and we all have seen how he has done since then.

I never said we don't have quality prospects. I'm saying none of them have made it in the NHL (yet). Ritchie was drafted 3 years ago, it's still way too early to tell on these guys. It's not me rushing - you asked me to list more recent prospects that fit your parameters.
Smith had 52 points on boston. He's a good pick.

My myopic view? Reilly is a great prospect and will be a great pick (a top 10 pick). I only named Nishushkin because you said 7 years wasn't "recent" enough for you. Yes he's a top 10 pick but he follows the trend that Dallas keeps infusing their team with young talent almost yearly.

 

[hotpaws]

It is a myth. Its unfair to **** on team's junior scouting department for a 4 year period where they didn't draft NHL players outside of the first two rounds, especially considering some of those selections are still developing and we have discussions about where they might fit on the roster in due time. You're being either disingenuous or asinine.

Again i'll repeat , it's not the 1st two rounds it's players outside of the top 10 selections in the draft .

07 - Gunner , Frattin - decent depth player

08 - nothing we're waiting on or developing

09 - Ryan-D'Amigo potential 4th liners with a slight chance at 3rd line in JD's case , Devane potential 4th line enforcer (waste of a 3rd rd pick)

10 - Ross looks like a bust , maybe McKegg or Carrick develops as a depth frwd , Brodin/Nicholls i don't know much about and only Granberg looks to have to potential to become anything more than a depth/role player

11 - Biggs/Broll potential 4th line bangers . Percy might become a solid bottom pair D with a chance to play as a num4 . Levio has developed well so far and has a chance to become a solid middle 6 frd . Don't much about the rest of the guys so i won't comment . Past on a number of guys to trade the 30-39 for Biggs - Rakell/Jenner/Gibson/Saad/Nieto have all broken into the league already with varying degress of success so far .

 

[Mess]

Again i'll repeat , it's not the 1st two rounds it's players outside of the top 10 selections in the draft .

07 - Gunner , Frattin - decent depth player

08 - nothing we're waiting on or developing

09 - Ryan-D'Amigo potential 4th liners with a slight chance at 3rd line in JD's case , Devane potential 4th line enforcer (waste of a 3rd rd pick)

10 - Ross looks like a bust , maybe McKegg or Carrick develops as a depth frwd , Brodin/Nicholls i don't know much about and only Granberg looks to have to potential to become anything more than a depth/role player

Brodin & Nicholls were never signed by the Leafs and tossed back into the entry draft.. Neither are Leafs prospects any more.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Or they like the prospects we have but aren't blindfaith followers who can acknowledge a weakness in the system they'd like to fix. If you don't like the discussion of ideas and opinions, why do you come to a message board?

Agreed. I like a lot of our prospects like Finn, Percy, Brown and Biggs, yeah, BIGGS. I really like him as a prospect but I still have him projected as a 4th or perhaps 3rd liner. It is ok to like future role players and support players but also recognize we miss blue chip prospects. I sit at home late nights and scream of joy when Kessel score, still think the trade set us back and I would not mind trading him to change direction. I have seen to many teams (not just hockey) who left out their most skilled guys and find success because their overall game improved when they no longer tried to play to the strengths of their star player(s). I mean, you can hold two thoughts at the same time.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

In the last 24 months we'll have added:

-Rielly, Bernier, JVR as core pieces to build around for many year. Those are 3 huge additions without giving up one core piece to add them.

+ we've also added some other intriguing pieces like Holland, Gauthier, 8th overall this year, Finn and a lot of our prospects have continued to advance very well like Percy, Leivo, Carrick Broll, D'Amigo, Ashton, McKegg, Granberg who have the Marlies deep in the playoffs and all look to have at least a realistic shot at becoming cheap depth NHLers over the next few seasons.

We've got Kessel + Phaneuf locked up as key pieces long term. People might dislike Phaneuf a lot but he's still a darn good player and if we do trade him we'd get something nice in return.

Toronto is still probably two years away from contending but we are much further ahead in terms of assets then we were 2 years ago and miles better then we were when Burke took over.

Toronto is at a point now where the best thing that could probably happen to this team is for them to suck next year to gain another top asset in a high pick in a good draft + be able to sell off some pieces at the deadline that aren't part of the long term picture like Gleason, Gunnarson, Lupul, UFA vets added this off-season for a high return like it would have nice to do with Grabo, CMac, Raymond, Kulemin, McClement in past seasons. This would also allow some youngsters to get some NHL reps towards the end of the season.

It looks bleak at the moment and it'll take a bit more time but it also looked bad in Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA, St. Louis, Colorado, Montreal, New York for a long time.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Again i'll repeat , it's not the 1st two rounds it's players outside of the top 10 selections in the draft .

07 - Gunner , Frattin - decent depth player

08 - nothing we're waiting on or developing

09 - Ryan-D'Amigo potential 4th liners with a slight chance at 3rd line in JD's case , Devane potential 4th line enforcer (waste of a 3rd rd pick)

10 - Ross looks like a bust , maybe McKegg or Carrick develops as a depth frwd , Brodin/Nicholls i don't know much about and only Granberg looks to have to potential to become anything more than a depth/role player

11 - Biggs/Broll potential 4th line bangers . Percy might become a solid bottom pair D with a chance to play as a num4 . Levio has developed well so far and has a chance to become a solid middle 6 frd . Don't much about the rest of the guys so i won't comment . Past on a number of guys to trade the 30-39 for Biggs - Rakell/Jenner/Gibson/Saad/Nieto have all broken into the league already with varying degress of success so far .

It's true that our scouting and drafting has been a bit lackluster. Part of the problem, though, is that our GMs always hand out picks like they are candy.

The Leafs need to stop trading picks like they are going out of style. At least they've seemingly stopped trading 1st rounders - it's a start.

There is youth on the Leafs' team to be excited about. They have a good offense built around Kessel, JVR, and to a lesser extent, Kadri. They have what looks to be a good young goalie in Bernier. Now they need to figure out how to play defense. Badly.

A full blown "blow-it-up rebuild" may not be required, but then patience and improved scouting/drafting/development is needed. Teaching and implementing a strong defensive system and hard working culture is a must.

Dave Nonis called himself a patient man. Signing Clarkson and buying out Grabovski suggests otherwise. Hopefully Shanahan walks the talk.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

The only positive I can come up with is that this team will never be a threat to relocate or contract because we have extremely passionate and loyal fans

Also excited that DJ Smith might be the newest Marlies coach

 

[Squiffy]

Reasons to stay positive:

It is sure gonna be one hell of a party if we actually ever win.

 

[theIceWookie]

The only positive I can come up with is that this team will never be a threat to relocate or contract because we have extremely passionate and loyal fans

Also excited that DJ Smith might be the newest Marlies coach

He just re-upped with Oshawa and is taking on duties as their new Assistant GM. So don't think he'll be the new Marlies coach until at least 2015-2016

 

[nsleaf]

My eternal optimism switch does not engage until Sept. All down hill(usually) after that.

 

[leafs in five]

No one is saying this team is good.

Nonis often says this, said it after the Carlyle presser even. something like, i don't think we can succeed with the group under Randy, i know we can because i've seen it happen.