The Peak of the Leafs-Canadiens Rivalry

[BIitz]

When exactly was this? It's kind of lackluster now a days. Usually a ceremony before the game, and lately the games haven't exactly been close or really been all that exciting.

I know of the tradition, and the culture behind the rivalry. But when was this rivalry, just on ice, at it's finest? And at it's peak, where would you rate it all time in terms of rivalries?

Edit: Any notable series or stories that were noted for being really emotional? Any Habs or Leaf players saying they wouldn't wear the other teams jersey, etc?

 

[Baarle*]

It was mostly a rivalry in the O6 days. Ever since then the leafs haven't been super competitive and the playoffs were when the rivalry really escalated. Basically in the 1960's it was at the peak but after expansion they were in opposite conferences and obviously never met in the finals. In terms of where I rank it for all-time rivalries, do you mean NHL or all sports?

 

[BIitz]

Where you would rank it in terms of other heated NHL rivalries at their peak.

 

[Baarle*]

In modern day terms it has been lackluster. Both Montreal (in Boston) and Toronto (in Ottawa) have developed bigger rivals. In the past, the Bruins-Habs was the biggest rivalry. It's probably second in all time, based on it's peak and duration. I'm not including international rivalries in my ranking, by the way.

 

[BIitz]

Yeah modern day hasn't been anything special. The rivalry seems to be "strong" because of the cultural importance. It's just you read these stories of heated games, seasons where teams couldn't stand each other, dirty plays and all that, and I never read anything about the Leafs-Canadiens.

I notice more older Leafs and Canadien fans dislike each other more than their younger counterparts. Was there ever a time the Habs disliked the Leafs moreso than the Bruins?

 

[Killion]

I know of the tradition, and the culture behind the rivalry. But when was this rivalry, just on ice, at it's finest? And at it's peak, where would you rate it all time in terms of rivalries?

It pretty much peaked in the early through late 60's, culminating in Toronto's last Stanley Cup and its win over the Habs in 1967. The rivalry though really began when after returning from WW2 Conn Smythe got rid of his long time confidante and second in command Frank Selke Sr., who was hired immediately thereafter by the Canadiens and who in short order built up a farm system in many ways superior to that which he'd started but never got the chance to finish in Toronto. Those tracks that Selke laid in the late 40's & through the 50's, the reins then handed to Sam Pollock resounded & echo'd through the 70's & to some degree the 80's for Montreal while in Toronto, starting with 67/68 the wheels pretty much fell off.

But yes, during the 60's, that rivalry between Montreal & Toronto was one of the best in the league & certainly the greatest in Canada at that time. French against English. Montreal then the most powerful city in the country with Toronto very much ascendant. A rivalry that transcended just sport or hockey but as an allegory served very well in illustrating the differences between the two cultures. You had the free wheeling highly creative Canadiens playing Firewagon Hockey against Imlachs' Troops. A defensively smothering team that did in fact play a trap system long before it became the vogue in the 90's, earlier employed by the likes of Art Ross in Boston back in the 30's & very successfully in winning Cups.

I guess if your of a certain age from Toronto or Montreal, or a Habs or Leafs fan, youd rate or rank that rivalry as the best up until that time, though Detroit vs Montreal & Toronto also up there in the 50's, Chicago vs Montreal & Toronto in the 60's at various junctures also superb as the teams met so many times over a season that battles carried on from game to game. Post 67 though all but done sadly. The teams just didnt meet enough during the Regular Season nor in the Playoffs, Montreal a class organization & winning, Chicago & then eventually Boston usurping & casting a big shadow over the Leafs/Habs rivalry in the 70's. The Nordiques vs Montreal in the early 80's & so on. Meanwhile in Toronto, Harold Ballard since 1972 pretty much dismantling whatever vestiges of pride & common sense were left or held over from the Smythe era. Treating long time Chief Scout Bob Davidson deplorably along with Dave Keon & so many others. Pretty sad really...

 

[Killion]

I notice more older Leafs and Canadien fans dislike each other more than their younger counterparts. Was there ever a time the Habs disliked the Leafs moreso than the Bruins?

Oh you bet. Boston was a mess, lousy team all through the 50's & up until 66 when Orr arrived. Losers. There was no rivalry with Montreal. The only rivalry Boston had was with New York through those years to see which one didnt finish dead last.... as for "older fans of Habs & Leafs disliking one another more"? I suppose some, but on the whole a mutual respect for one another. That we witnessed something special together albeit from other sides of the ice. Certainly as a Leafs fan I was happy to see Toronto guys like Steve Shutt, Ken Dryden & certainly Frank Mahovlich do so well in Montreal. So there was always a connection with the Habs, a sort of bond I guess youd call it. Montreal became what Toronto could have & should have become as well had we solid ownership and not the Freak Show that was Harold E. Ballard.

 

[Mike Martin]

Yeah modern day hasn't been anything special. The rivalry seems to be "strong" because of the cultural importance. It's just you read these stories of heated games, seasons where teams couldn't stand each other, dirty plays and all that, and I never read anything about the Leafs-Canadiens.

I notice more older Leafs and Canadien fans dislike each other more than their younger counterparts. Was there ever a time the Habs disliked the Leafs moreso than the Bruins?

Doesn't Montreal have more English speakers in the last two decades? That could play a factor in reducing the rivalry.

 

[Killion]

Doesn't Montreal have more English speakers in the last two decades? That could play a factor in reducing the rivalry.

Ya, thats really an anachronism of the past as well. Left behind long ago with the changing face of Canada, multiculturalism. Montreal certainly but Toronto in particular. Massive immigration & growth over the past 30yrs. Something staggering like 50% of all Torontonians having another language other than English as their first language, and their first language is most assuredly not French. A far different dynamic & country than it was back then. Both the Canadiens & Leafs as likely to have Swedes, Finns, Russians or Czechs, Americans or whatever as french or english Canadians on their rosters, behind the bench, in management & scouting.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Its sad really that the Habs are no longer the Flying Frenchmen, or even Frenchmen, but that era had to come to an end eventually. I wasn't around to see the rivalry in the 60's, but I imagine it was pretty heated. Nothing compares, from what I've seen and read, to the Habs/Nordiques rivalry of the 80's and early 90's. And that was observing it from the Prairie Provinces without the benefit of the internet and regularly televised games. Two French communities with more in common than their perceived differences absolutely despising each other. Not to mention, the pride of Quebec City, Lafleur, playing for Montreal. How confusing it must have been.

 

[BIitz]

But yes, during the 60's, that rivalry between Montreal & Toronto was one of the best in the league & certainly the greatest in Canada at that time. French against English. Montreal then the most powerful city in the country with Toronto very much ascendant. A rivalry that transcended just sport or hockey but as an allegory served very well in illustrating the differences between the two cultures. You had the free wheeling highly creative Canadiens playing Firewagon Hockey against Imlachs' Troops. A defensively smothering team that did in fact play a trap system long before it became the vogue in the 90's, earlier employed by the likes of Art Ross in Boston back in the 30's & very successfully in winning Cups.

Meanwhile in Toronto, Harold Ballard since 1972 pretty much dismantling whatever vestiges of pride & common sense were left or held over from the Smythe era. Treating long time Chief Scout Bob Davidson deplorably along with Dave Keon & so many others. Pretty sad really...

Thanks for your well written response good sir.

So the rivalry was always inscribed in the cultures itself? Was that more of a cause for the rivalry then the play itself? I always thought it had to do with them both being O6 teams, but it seems that the cultural differences and how the teams embodied their respective cultures is what caused the rivalry. If so, the quote below certainly sheds an important light on the lessening of the rivalry!

The bold is always so sad to read as a Leaf fan.

Doesn't Montreal have more English speakers in the last two decades? That could play a factor in reducing the rivalry.

Never considered this aspect, but that would certainly have to do with it.

 

[Killion]

...So the rivalry was always inscribed in the cultures itself? Was that more of a cause for the rivalry then the play itself? I always thought it had to do with them both being O6 teams, but it seems that the cultural differences and how the teams embodied their respective cultures is what caused the rivalry.

Pretty much, yes. Montcalm vs Wolfe. Plains of Abraham for the romantically inclined. England vs France. Very old rivalry indeed and much bloodshed. Conservative, Anglicized Toronto with its roast beef & Yorkshire Pudding at the old Park Plaza at Avenue Road & Bloor vs the far more progressive, European and jazzy Montreal which had it all. Center of corporate Canada back then, the NHL itself headquartered in Montreal. The lead up to Expo 67 with then beyond innovative design, then the event itself, throwing a party for the World during Canadas' Centennial. The first MLB franchise awarded outside of the US. The 1976 Olympics....

Toronto wanted all of that & more. So sure, a "rivalry" as Montreal ruled supreme, Toronto ascendant. As hockey in both locales is pretty much a religion, well, at every level, Junior, even amateur tournaments between Quebec & Ontario based teams often very fractious affairs. Our system vs theirs and there was an ugly side to it as well in some instances, nasty examples & cases. That the french were in some ways "inferior" to the english having lost the country, the battle of Trafalgar, Napolean sent packing to rot on Elba.

This is where guys like Don Cherry are coming from. His hero Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson. Quebec in the 40's objecting to Conscription considered cowardly & treasonous by many in Toronto, English Canada. Conn Smythe with his whole "we are Marshall" meme. His Brigade of Sportsmen. Imlach. Ex Army Drill Sarge. Brush cuts one & all & dont talk back. Full Metal Jacket Baby.... Montreal, your doin the Lambada down rue Ste Catherine with a blond on one arm & a red head on the other behind a fabulous Dixie Band, and thats 7 nights a week.

Funny story about Chicago playing in Montreal one night in the mid-60's. Hull & some of the Hawks out partying it up after a game at a bar & Bobby Hull spots Gump Worsley in the parking lot. Goes over as hes starting it to take off and in a loud voice says "where ya goin Gump? C'mon, lets go get laid". Didnt seem to realize or see Gumps wife sitting next to him in the car (or maybe he did, and thought it hilarious to drop kick the Gumpster in the dumpster with the Mrs.).... That was Montreal though. Totally different on some levels but very much the same as Toronto on others.

 

[Bourque]

Pretty much, yes. ...

There are these things called paragraphs, my friend.

 

[57special]

I'm old enough to remember the 60's games, when the Habs were a skilled, fast skating team and the Leafs were a physical, defensive team. Imlach started 5 dmen (i.e. Horton, Baun, Brewer, Stanley, etc.)on at least one occasion to send a little message. Great games.

I would imagine the games in the 40's and 50's were just as heated, if not more so. Conn Smythe, and English Canada in General, had a resentment against Quebeckers because they were exempt from the WWII draft. So you'd get some hardened , war vet Leaf players coming back after WWII who either served in the War of had family that did going against a team that was perceived (rightly or wrongly) as shirking their patriotic duties. On the Canadiens side you had one of, if not THE greatest lineup in hockey history. I don't see the Rocket, Doug Harvey, Emile Bouchard, or Elmer Lach backing down from anybody. I would bet that some of the games got pretty nasty.

Games were still good into the 70's, even though Montreal were the better team. Sittler, Lanny, and Salming always got up for those games. Once they left, however, and were supplanted by Vaive, Derlago,etc. The rivalry tended to be less interesting. I also think the Bruins replaced the Leafs as Montreal's chief hate.

 

[Killion]

^^^ ya, the residue from the 06 era did indeed carry over into the 70's however there was little doubt as to the outcome of most games against the Habs of the 70's. The decade in Montreal opening with the October Crisis & the FLQ barely 3yrs after Expo 67. The city of Montreal again preparing to host the world for the Olympics, the Expo's taking to the diamond, the Habs unstoppable.

Long simmering enmities with English Canada blowing sky high, political storms raging in Quebec. The separatist movement, Rene Levesque & the passage of Bill 101 (Quebec Charter of the French Language) followed by a Referendum on Sovereignty. The former driving almost all of the National & Multi-National Corporations, Media Headquarters etc along with 1000's upon 1000's of jobs & people (anglophones) out of Montreal. Most moving to Toronto. Huge influx of monied multi generational & newer immigrants who had emigrated to Montreal post WW1 or II. Toronto benefited enormously of course, which between Bay Street & the suburbs with new plants & distribution centers opening up, Headquarters relocating saw a major change in just where exactly the real wealth in Canada now resided.

In 1965 Toronto's new City Hall opened to much applause. A signal that the city was indeed moving into the late 20th & 21st Centuries with a very edgy & futuristic design... Toronto City Hall even into the 80's, used in a 1988 Star Trek;TNG episode called Contagion, a supposed portal into another Dimension & Universe.... and not far off from being wrong considering some of the Space Cadets who have inhabited its offices & chambers... the most recent of course being the very classy Mayor Rob Frd but I digress.... Subsequently recognized world wide as an iconic emblem of the city along with the building of the CN Tower (and earlier in the 60's the TD Center Towers as well) that followed in the 70's. That structure a marvel of engineering. Made a real statement.

So while Montreal was winning all those Cups in the 70's, Harold Ballard well on his way to destroying a once proud franchise, starting in earnest around 72/73/74 after acquiring controlling interest from a jail cell... thus insuring the death of the fabled rivalry with the Canadiens. The rot really starting in the lat 50's when Conn Smythe sold his shares to a his son Stafford, Harold & Bassett Sr. They in turn selling the farms, trading away players who went on to have HHOF careers elsewhere... and now, I have to go lie down....

 

[thom]

Great message Killion I was going to write the same thing but not as good.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

The true death of the rivalry was when the Leafs joined the Norris division in the Campbell Conference, which also coincided with the destruction of the last fun Leaf team for a long while, the late 70's edition. At least before that there was a chance the Habs and Leafs could meet in the playoffs like in 78 and 79.

 

[Killion]

The true death of the rivalry was when the Leafs joined the Norris division in the Campbell Conference, which also coincided with the destruction of the last fun Leaf team for a long while, the late 70's edition. At least before that there was a chance the Habs and Leafs could meet in the playoffs like in 78 and 79.

Ya, certainly from a general fan perspective that rivalry does live on, and what occurred there in the late 70's with Imlach's return, Brewer coming out of retirement, Lanny MacDonald trade etc and divisional realignment the final nail in the coffin. But there were very early warning signs if you followed the on & off-ice triangulations at Maple Leaf Gardens, the long road to disrespect-ability really commencing in the early 60's. Farms & players sold off. Imlach burying guys in the minors in anticipation of winning the 67 Expansion lottery with a team in Vancouver. Wheels falling off in 67/68. The shameful treatment of Keon & others. The Fraud & Theft charges.

Ballard was beyond bellicose and no one, no player, no Coach or GM was ever going to be a bigger or brighter star or face of the franchise than Harold. Generations of fans absolutely disgusted & walking away yet so many, almost legion, that it never really affected the bottom line of Maple Leaf Gardens Inc. Sittler never stood a chance. What followed with Vaive, Ramage, Wregget & the rest not exactly what youd call a decade of over-achievement & success. God only knows, had Ballard lived another 10, 20yrs if he didnt completely finish the job of extinguishing the Leafs flame permanently. But yes, as in a long forgotten dream of seasons long since past, and if you were lucky enough to have been witness to it, the rivalry lives on, passed on down the years, of The Chief, Horton & Baun, Stanley, Red Kelly & Johnny Bower etc...

Indeed, MLSE over the past 20yrs has grown fat in selling the past. When the presents no fun & the futures not looking all that bright, time to trot out the old chestnuts with vintage jerseys & banners, wheel Eddie Shack & others around the ice in Mustang ragtops. Groovy.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Generations of fans absolutely disgusted & walking away yet so many, almost legion, that it never really affected the bottom line of Maple Leaf Gardens Inc.

Pretty well sold out for every game still through the darkest era. And I wouldn't even attribute that to the massive population of Toronto. Up until recently, they have always supported their teams in droves. The Jays and Argos not so much in the past 15 years.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Pretty much, yes. Montcalm vs Wolfe. Plains of Abraham for the romantically inclined. England vs France. Very old rivalry indeed and much bloodshed. Conservative, Anglicized Toronto with its roast beef & Yorkshire Pudding at the old Park Plaza at Avenue Road & Bloor vs the far more progressive, European and jazzy Montreal which had it all. Center of corporate Canada back then, the NHL itself headquartered in Montreal. The lead up to Expo 67 with then beyond innovative design, then the event itself, throwing a party for the World during Canadas' Centennial. The first MLB franchise awarded outside of the US. The 1976 Olympics....

Toronto wanted all of that & more. So sure, a "rivalry" as Montreal ruled supreme, Toronto ascendant. As hockey in both locales is pretty much a religion, well, at every level, Junior, even amateur tournaments between Quebec & Ontario based teams often very fractious affairs. Our system vs theirs and there was an ugly side to it as well in some instances, nasty examples & cases. That the french were in some ways "inferior" to the english having lost the country, the battle of Trafalgar, Napolean sent packing to rot on Elba.

This is where guys like Don Cherry are coming from. His hero Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson. Quebec in the 40's objecting to Conscription considered cowardly & treasonous by many in Toronto, English Canada. Conn Smythe with his whole "we are Marshall" meme. His Brigade of Sportsmen. Imlach. Ex Army Drill Sarge. Brush cuts one & all & dont talk back. Full Metal Jacket Baby.... Montreal, your doin the Lambada down rue Ste Catherine with a blond on one arm & a red head on the other behind a fabulous Dixie Band, and thats 7 nights a week.

Funny story about Chicago playing in Montreal one night in the mid-60's. Hull & some of the Hawks out partying it up after a game at a bar & Bobby Hull spots Gump Worsley in the parking lot. Goes over as hes starting it to take off and in a loud voice says "where ya goin Gump? C'mon, lets go get laid". Didnt seem to realize or see Gumps wife sitting next to him in the car (or maybe he did, and thought it hilarious to drop kick the Gumpster in the dumpster with the Mrs.).... That was Montreal though. Totally different on some levels but very much the same as Toronto on others.

Montreal had Duran Vs Leonard "The Brawl in Montreal"

 

[thom]

Montreal also stole f1 race from toronto

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Montreal also stole f1 race from toronto

Toronto never had an F1 race. It was in Ontario, the Mosport track, but pretty far from Toronto.

 

[Killion]

Toronto never had an F1 race. It was in Ontario, the Mosport track, but pretty far from Toronto.

Thats right, out near Bowmanville. Now called the Canadian Tire Motorsports Park I believe. I actually knew Harvey Hudes one of the owners (64-89) for some time. Inducted into the Canadian Motorsports Hall of Fame. He was also involved for awhile in the Thunderboat Racing Series (all classes of modified hydro's). Like motorsports it too was for quite some time extremely popular in Quebec.

 

[mbhhofr]

There was no more hated hockey player in Toronto than Montreal's Rocket. I was at the third game of the 1960 Stanley Cup final in Toronto when he scored what turned out to be the last goal of his NHL career. Oh the irony.

 

[Killion]

There was no more hated hockey player in Toronto than Montreal's Rocket. I was at the third game of the 1960 Stanley Cup final in Toronto when he scored what turned out to be the last goal of his NHL career. Oh the irony.

In February 1949, the Toronto based Globe & Mail ran a story with an early photo-shopped picture of The Rocket in a Leafs jersey. Reported that Conn Smythe had offered Montreal a blank check to secure his Contract.... Can you imagine that, the ramifications for Montreal & Quebec along with the Leafs?

I cant get my head around it. www.civilization.ca/cmc/exhibitions/hist/rocket/rokt484e.shtml