The Norris Division

[JianYang]

I was just waching some YT vids from the late 80s and early 90s from the norris division.

I knew the blackhawks were a crazy bunch under Keenan, but man, these games against the blues and Page's north stars were absolute gong shows.

Do you guys have any memories of these matchups from that era? I wish I was a tad older so that I could have appreciated it more back then.

I get the impression that some of these games went north of 3 hrs regularly.

You had many rugged, and big tough guys on each team, a few guys who played with some loose screws, but also alot of amazing talent like modano, bellows, Gartner, hull, oates, roenick, savard etc...

Its just something we will never get back, but what stands out to you guys from these battles? I got goosebumps watching dave manson calling scott stevens out to center ice to settle a score.

The chicago stadium backdrop was perfect too with the crazy atmosphere, and the organ belting out phantom of the opera as the brawls go on.

 

[sr edler]

Apparently it was colloquially known as the Chuck Norris Division.

 

[The Panther]

Through the mid-to-late 80s it was actually known as the Snore-is division, so meaningless were most games due to the collective teams' futility.

As an Alberta-based young fan back then, I could tell you that once the Oilers or Flames made it out of the Smythe division and into the third round (which happened every season from '83 to '90), we knew they were in the Finals because losing to the Norris winner was inconceivable. In fairness, Detroit did have a decent team by '88, and the Blackhawks were on the rise in '90 -- they likely would have taken down Edmonton if Messier hadn't willed the Oilers to victory. But then in '91, the North Stars beat declining Edmonton (both teams were surprises to make it that far), which decisively ended that era.

I agree with JianYang about the crazed atmosphere. Once in a while, I'd watch a game from Chicago stadium and it was just insane compared to the modern buildings and polite crowds in Calgary or Edmonton (fast-forward 30 years, and Calgary now has the oldest building!).

But when I was a kid and watched those old, brawl-infused games with insane violence, goonery, and scrums after every whistle, I honestly thought it was disgraceful and a total waste of time. Not that I minded the rough stuff, but there's a difference between 'honest' rough-stuff and pointless stupidity that slows the game down and wastes the energy of the athletes.

But, damn, I miss the unique energy and 'vibe' of those old buildings like Chicago Stadium and Boston Garden. The NHL really crapped the bed on that point, making all the rinks into bland cookie-cutter buildings with no atmosphere.

Albeit I could do without the flag-waving, it's goosebump-inducing to see passion like this at an NHL game!:

 

[Jets4Life]

Yes, until the early 90s, the Norris Division was beyond pathetic. From the inception of the Smythe-Norris Conference Final format, until 1991, the Norris never really challenged the Smythe champion in 9 consecutive series between the two. The North Stars finally broke the Norris losing streak, ironically with the weakest record of any Norris playoff team that season. The final tally was 10-2 in favour of the Smythe Division.

I can't help but think that if the Colorado Rockies had not moved to New Jersey, the Winnipeg Jets may have gone to the Conference Finals 2 or 3 times, as they did well in the Division before being moved to the Smythe in 1982.

 

[sr edler]

It was called Chuck Norris Division not because the teams were particularly strong or particularly good but because of the violence, the hacking and the whacking, with Willi Plett, et al.

 

[tony d]

I remember the division. In 1986-1987 the Blues finished below .500 and still won the division so it wasn't always the strongest of divisions.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

From a discussion I started that you might find interesting

The Norris got a lot better by the early 90s, although most of the best teams they had by that point still seemed to cough up hairballs at important moments. For most of the 80s though, the entire division was somewhere between league average and bad, with at least one team at "historically bad" levels. They didnt win many games against the rest of the league, but they sure won the fights

 

[koyvoo]

The 1991 Norris division playoff series between the Northstars and the Hawks was one of the most riveting I’ve ever seen.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

The 1991 Norris division playoff series between the Northstars and the Hawks was one of the most riveting I’ve ever seen.

I wouldnt mind a thread detailing what happened. Ive wanted to find a series recap of it on youtube for years, but its never come up.

As far as I know, the Hawks were heavily favoured, partly because Ed Belfour emerged as a proper starter on a team that was already pretty close in 1990. They play the North Stars, but cannot stay disciplined to stay out of the box, and get roasted by a sudden white hot Stars powerplay.

 

[JianYang]

Through the mid-to-late 80s it was actually known as the Snore-is division, so meaningless were most games due to the collective teams' futility.

As an Alberta-based young fan back then, I could tell you that once the Oilers or Flames made it out of the Smythe division and into the third round (which happened every season from '83 to '90), we knew they were in the Finals because losing to the Norris winner was inconceivable. In fairness, Detroit did have a decent team by '88, and the Blackhawks were on the rise in '90 -- they likely would have taken down Edmonton if Messier hadn't willed the Oilers to victory. But then in '91, the North Stars beat declining Edmonton (both teams were surprises to make it that far), which decisively ended that era.

I agree with JianYang about the crazed atmosphere. Once in a while, I'd watch a game from Chicago stadium and it was just insane compared to the modern buildings and polite crowds in Calgary or Edmonton (fast-forward 30 years, and Calgary now has the oldest building!).

But when I was a kid and watched those old, brawl-infused games with insane violence, goonery, and scrums after every whistle, I honestly thought it was disgraceful and a total waste of time. Not that I minded the rough stuff, but there's a difference between 'honest' rough-stuff and pointless stupidity that slows the game down and wastes the energy of the athletes.

But, damn, I miss the unique energy and 'vibe' of those old buildings like Chicago Stadium and Boston Garden. The NHL really crapped the bed on that point, making all the rinks into bland cookie-cutter buildings with no atmosphere.

Albeit I could do without the flag-waving, it's goosebump-inducing to see passion like this at an NHL game!:

The garden, and chicago stadium were the two most intimidating buildings for me watching as a kid. I also remember the stairs in the old chicago stadium... Just little things like that gave the rinks character, and I just found those quirks to be neat.

The spectrum also felt intimidating especially after the leigon of doom era took off, and the fans ate it up the way only flyer fans can.

The aud in buffalo also had a feeling to it... Probably because of the smaller rink, but it got loud too. They had that earl of bud who danced on the railing as well.

I'll give the hawks some credit though. They did preserve some of the feeling of the old stadium. Of course, its not the same, but the horn, and organ are similar, and they still have an amazing anthem singer who gets the crowd going right from the start.

 

[tabness]

I was also too young/not as in to hockey to catch the "storied history" lol of the eighties Norris division firsthand, but the beautiful thing is, it is the hockey fight enthusiast community that's done a great job preserving old games in general, and where would you find the best brawls but in the notorious Norris lol?

Going back and collecting old games, it's been incredibly fun to watch. There are definitely many "double tapers" lol, games certainly ran in excess of three hours due to all the whistles from the penalties, scrums, and all out brawls (the stickwork was also off the chain lol).

The hockey was certainly the poorest standard that the NHL had to offer at the time, but by the late eighties, there was an upward trend. Obviously by the early nineties, the Norris could be considered the strongest and most talented division. Whereas for much of the eighties, Savard and Wilson were the division's only superstars, by the late eighties you had Yzerman and then Hull step right up, and by the early nineties, the Norris became maybe the strongest division in hockey. It was headlined of course by the Blackhawks with their deep team and core of Belfour, Chelios, and their best player Roenick. The Wings quickly emerged as a power under Bryan Murray with Fedorov joining Yzerman, and became a favorite when Coffey came over. The Blues beyond Hull had Oates, and a decently deep team, and a real good goalie in Joseph. The Maple Leafs even had Gilmour briefly become an unlikely superstar with some good compliments around him, and being coached by Pat Burns, they were not an easy matchup. Even the North Stars had their Cinderella run in the early nineties and while they may not have had superstars, they had a bunch of good players who just kept improving way beyond expectations like Tinordi, and they were well coached.

I don't think Jacques Demers get enough credit for helping start a bit of a trend for the Norris to tighten up defensively in the late eighties. It wasn't the most brilliant defensive scheme, just a simple 1-4 through the neutral zone with a lot of clutching and grabbing, but it worked well enough for the Blues and then the Red Wings for a bit, and it's clear other teams in the division did some copying.

Chicago Stadium was certainly a highlight in terms of barns, even as other buildings during the eighties started putting ads up on the boards, Chicago Stadium kept an old time charm by keeping those off and continuing with the organ. A last holdout before the over corporatization of the game.

The "progress" to the powderpuff game of today is real sad in many senses. Not even close to being as fun to watch. As an great example that ties into some of the drama of today, here's one of those unheralded Norris division guys, Gerard Gallant. Not the most talented guy by any stretch, back then or now, but a hard working good sense kinda guy with a lot of rough edges on him. Effectively played with a superstar in juniors and translated that same success in the NHL. Unlike today with how elbows (and in one case an "elbow" that wasn't even one) get 60 pages against Trouba, Gallant takes a couple of elbows (notice how Mickey just laughs and says "nice elbow" lol) and goes right after the guy who threw them, even though he'd likely get his ass kicked since that guy is one of the toughest mofos to ever play Stu Grimson.



Gallant coaching in this league and throwback players like Trouba still make the game worth watching.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i missed the wild 80s norris battles, though my sense is while teams in that division did absolutely crater at times, its weakness is overstated.

chicago had a consistently genuinely good team, minnesota had some very strong teams (and some horrible ones), and st louis had some good teams. but the dead wings were the dead wings and toronto was toronto. in a world without the dynasty oilers, i don't know that we don't think very differently about the all-time ranking of denis savard, because he would have multiple finals runs with bonkers points totals. (and also, i've run the numbers before and showed that when they each got out of the norris, both he and federko scored at almost exactly the same rate as their rounds one and two games within the division.)

but when i did start watching, i just totally loved the arms race. chicago and st louis all of a sudden became really really good, but also they became monsters. chicago had manson, peluso, grimson, roenick took savard's top dog spot and they swapped doug wilson for freakin' chelios. st louis added scott stevens, garth butcher, two sutters, and kelly chase and darren kimble. but it was minnesota that ripped through the division, led by mark tinordi and neil wilkinson, with churla and basil mcrae chucking knuckles and the powerplay to end all powerplays.

and the detroit team on the rise still had probert and kocur at that time, plus young randy mckay, with marc potvin on the farm.

 

[Look Up]

Fun fact: Tampa Bay was in the Norris division for their inaugural season (92/93)

 

[hacksaw7]

Throughout the 80's the only time the Norris had anything even resembling a great team was the 1983 Black Hawks who had 104 pts (back when 100+ pts was a big deal) Still they were absolutely massacred by the Oilers in the Campbell Conf Finals.

I liked the unpredictability of that division. Through its existence Chicago was the most stable and consistent team coming out of the Norris, but you would also have years where Minnesota would come out of nowhere and make the Finals, the Red Wings emerged from their Dead Things years with Demers in the late 80s, the Blues nabbed a couple of 1st in the division finishes in the 80s as well (one in a year they were UNDER .500) 1987 eeking out the 78 pt Wings.

The buildings also helped make it great. Chicago Stadium and that tiny ice surface and some how being able to cram 17,000+ in that building. A cauldron of noise. MLG, one of the most legendary buildings in hockey history. Even the Checkerdome and the Met Center were fun and loud venues, especially boisterous in playoff time.