The New and really Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[ACC1224]

With Dubas giving his backup goalie Mrazek (who never plays) $3.5 mil X 2 years one can only imagine what Campbell his starter is now going to cost him to re-sign?

Hate to break it to you but it was 3 years.

 

[Dekes For Days]

With Dubas giving his backup goalie Mrazek (who never plays) $3.5 mil X 2 years one can only imagine what Campbell his starter is now going to cost him to re-sign?

1. Mrazek is not a backup. He is a tandem goalie, and a good one at that, signed to a reasonable deal.
2. The only reason Mrazek hasn't played much is because he's been injured. Should be back soon.
3. If you want to talk about contracts, perhaps start with actually getting the term and amount correct.
4. How about we wait to see how the season progresses (maybe actually enjoy it?) and what the potential contract is like, before we start panicking about the next thing yet again? Dubas has shown an excellent ability to effectively maneuver difficult cap situations and get his important players signed, time and time again. There are many possible options and paths moving forward.
5. What exactly does this have to do with my post you're replying to?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

No, it would be the cost of acquiring and the difference between their 7th and 8th best non-exempt forward, which for most teams, was essentially nothing. No team thought McCann was worth acquiring for more than a Hallander-level prospect as recently as a few months ago.

If a guy pacing for 27 goals could only get a Hallander-level prospect, then what would they get for the guy that makes MORE money and only paced for 11 goals?

The value of exposable roster players was greatly diminished in the days leading up to the expansion draft. To suggest otherwise is literal rhetoric.

 

[kb]

That I kind of agree with, I would have given him 4-4.5 over 4-5 years to get him signed before this season and even if he didn't live up to it, it's not an immovable contract if you front load it. Now you are looking at upwards of 5M on a 5+ year deal similar to the Andersen deal so we will definitely be lean in the back up role and have to hope Woll is for real.

That is definitely one criticism for Dubas, he's been slow to sign key players and as a result, they were overpaid. Marner could have been cheaper if he was signed a year prior and by all indications they were interested in a Draisaitl type deal at the time but the Leafs didn't engage.

He got lucky with Rielly, despite the fact that he was signed late, he signed a reasonable deal to stay with Toronto instead of chasing a Hamilton type contract which he could have gotten.

No, you don't sign a guy who is nearly 30 with 86 NHL games to his resume (and who has had multiple injuries) on a win now team to a long term ticket. I get that other teams have done it, but it's not the right move.

The Leafs played it dead right. You can only afford to pay for hope if you are not in win now. The Leafs are win now.

 

[Pi]

No, you don't sign a guy who is nearly 30 with 86 NHL games to his resume (and who has had multiple injuries) on a win now team to a long term ticket. I get that other teams have done it, but it's not the right move.

The Leafs played it dead right. You can only afford to pay for hope if you are not in win now. The Leafs are win now.

Yeah there are two sides to this. It’s tough to be right one way or another. He looks like a genius if he was signed cheap prior to this season but also looks like a dolt if Campbell was crap this year and went back to being a back up level goalie.

He played it safe knowing that the Leafs are constrained by the cap so he will happily pay more now after this season knowing he’s the real deal and doesn’t have to worry about him falling off a cliff.

Signing him to a long term deal and him regressing to a back up player would just ruin any chance of improving on a goalie because of the cap and we would end up having two back ups in net for 5-6M.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If a guy pacing for 27 goals could only get a Hallander-level prospect, then what would they get for the guy that makes MORE money and only paced for 11 goals?

If you're talking about Kerfoot (who actually paced for 12), probably more, considering that there's a lot more to a player's value than how many goals they paced for in a particular season.

The value of exposable roster players was greatly diminished in the days leading up to the expansion draft.

McCann wouldn't have been exposed on most teams in the league, so that's a pretty weak argument, and none of them wanted to pay more than a Hallander-level prospect to get him on their team as recently as a few months ago.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No, you don't sign a guy who is nearly 30 with 86 NHL games to his resume (and who has had multiple injuries) on a win now team to a long term ticket. I get that other teams have done it, but it's not the right move.

The Leafs played it dead right. You can only afford to pay for hope if you are not in win now. The Leafs are win now.

Mid term would have been fine for both sides. For the Leafs it would have been a low risk signing with a huge upside. Considering our history with goalies over the last 20 years and how important goaltending is, I'd have figured taking a small risk with someone who was as good for us last season as Campbell was, was the proverbial no brainer. That's why I said in the summer that extending Jack was my #1 off-season priority and I'm pretty sure that Dubas now regrets that he wasn't thinking the same.

 

[Pi]

If you're talking about Kerfoot (who actually paced for 12), probably more, considering that there's a lot more to a player's value than how many goals they paced for in a particular season.

McCann wouldn't have been exposed on most teams in the league, so that's a pretty weak argument, and none of them thought he was worth more than a Hallander-level prospect as recently as a few months ago.

Agreed. I don’t understand how anyone has problems with Kerfoot right now. He played great in the playoffs against Columbus and Montreal. He does everything the team asks for and is good defensively. We need a Kerfoot type player way more than a McCann type player.

We also protected Holl who is a serviceable top 4D for 2M for another season.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yeah there are two sides to this. It’s tough to be right one way or another. He looks like a genius if he was signed cheap prior to this season but also looks like a dolt if Campbell was crap this year and went back to being a back up level goalie.

He played it safe knowing that the Leafs are constrained by the cap so he will happily pay more now after this season knowing he’s the real deal and doesn’t have to worry about him falling off a cliff.

Signing him to a long term deal and him regressing to a back up player would just ruin any chance of improving on a goalie because of the cap and we would end up having two back ups in net for 5-6M.

Even as a back up he's always been really good though. Look at his numbers, they're impressive. 2018-19 was the most he's played, 31 games with a .928 SV% is impressive. And then he was good for us, and even better in the playoffs.

He's just been stuck behind Quick forever, there was good reason to think he's worth a gamble. You'd think Dubas would know this better than anyone considering he traded for him FFS, really strange that he didn't get it done.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Agreed. I don’t understand how anyone has problems with Kerfoot right now. He played great in the playoffs against Columbus and Montreal. He does everything the team asks for and is good defensively. We need a Kerfoot type player way more than a McCann type player.

We also protected Holl who is a serviceable top 4D for 2M for another season.

Are people still complaining about Kerfoot? SMH.

 

[kb]

Agreed. I don’t understand how anyone has problems with Kerfoot right now. He played great in the playoffs against Columbus and Montreal. He does everything the team asks for and is good defensively. We need a Kerfoot type player way more than a McCann type player.

We also protected Holl who is a serviceable top 4D for 2M for another season.

Well said......

 

[WTFMAN99]

That's not a possible scenario. If McCann was protected, that means they would have been doing 7-3-1, and Kerfoot would also be protected. Which means they take Holl, we lose our only NHL-level RHD going into the season, and as we dismantle our top-5 defense, there's really no way to replace him because much worse defensemen are getting contracts worth twice as much in the offseason and we just committed an additional 3m to forward depth.

I'm not sure what's so complicated here, and why people are acting like McCann is some super valuable player. McCann's league-wide value was established in this most recent offseason at a Hallander-level prospect. We lost Hallander in the expansion draft, which is pretty much best case scenario.

If Kerfoot and McCann were switched, we'd just be sitting here looking at Kerfoot riding an increased role and unsustainable shooting percentages to higher production, and the same people would be here blasting Dubas for letting Kerfoot - the cost-controlled versatile asset who works with our team, plays PK, and played really well last playoffs - go for the guy that is only signed for 1 year, is bad defensively, and has a grand total of 3 playoff assists in his entire career.

Kerfoot is literally sitting at the same number of points as McCann, and would probably return more than we paid for McCann. It's time to let it go.

Could have protected Engvall as an example and left Kerfoot there...I just don't think Kerfoot required a sweetener previous poster stated.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Could have protected Engvall as an example and left Kerfoot there...I just don't think Kerfoot required a sweetener previous poster stated.

I believe that poster meant a sweetener to decide Seattle's selection in a 4+4 scenario. In a 7+3 scenario, we would have obviously protected both McCann and Kerfoot.

 

[Menzinger]

With Dubas giving his backup goalie Mrazek (who never plays) $3.5 mil X 2 years one can only imagine what Campbell his starter is now going to cost him to re-sign?

Though this a bit of a misframe. Mrazek only hasn't played due to injury and he wasn't brought in to be a 20 game backup either. He's a 40-50 game on average player (a 1B). He likely would have split the starts with Campbell by now if not injured.

 

[Buds17]

I believe that poster meant a sweetener to decide Seattle's selection in a 4+4 scenario. In a 7+3 scenario, we would have obviously protected both McCann and Kerfoot.

Exactly.

 

[zeke]

GM of the Year favorite.

Or should be, but the old boys club won't ever let it happen.

 

[stickty111]

GM of the Year favorite.

Or should be, but the old boys club won't ever let it happen.

Based on the past GM's that have won the award, I'm not sure I want him to win it.

 

[Antropovsky]

Looks like I was wrong about Keefe - kinda (but I will reserve judgement). I thought he was entirely right in his assessment of the team play in the amazon series, but thought he lost the room and couldn't get them to play as a team defensively.

 

[seanlinden]

If you're talking about Kerfoot (who actually paced for 12), probably more, considering that there's a lot more to a player's value than how many goals they paced for in a particular season.

McCann wouldn't have been exposed on most teams in the league, so that's a pretty weak argument, and none of them wanted to pay more than a Hallander-level prospect to get him on their team as recently as a few months ago.

He may not have been, but he would have then forced a team to "lose" a better player in their expansion slot.
Most teams were not thinking of "how can we pick up another forward to protect?" -- they were thinking of how to best protect their existing rosters. McCann, or any player like him, sees his value instantly increase once the threat of expansion draft is gone.


There are very few teams in the league constructed like the Leafs were, where literally, after the 4th best forward, there's somewhat of ambivalence with regard to who they lose. Of the 30 teams participating in the draft, only 3 (Toronto, Nashville, and Tampa) didn't protect 7 forwards.

 

[Dekes For Days]

He may not have been, but he would have then forced a team to "lose" a better player in their expansion slot.

As already discussed, we're talking about the difference between a team's 7th and 8th best non-exempt forward, which for most teams, was nothing.

Most teams were not thinking of "how can we pick up another forward to protect?" -- they were thinking of how to best protect their existing rosters.

One GM in particular was smart enough to pick up a forward to be taken in order to protect their existing roster. I'm not sure why you think other GMs wouldn't always be on the lookout for ways to improve their rosters.

 

[SprDaVE]

GM of the Year favorite.

Or should be, but the old boys club won't ever let it happen.

Keefe can't even get a single vote for Coach of the Year for this season so far this season... I doubt Dubas gets anywhere near GM of the Year.

This was 2 days ago. Not a single vote. Toronto bias my ass.

 

[seanlinden]

As already discussed, we're talking about the difference between a team's 7th and 8th best non-exempt forward, which for most teams, was nothing.

One GM in particular was smart enough to pick up a forward to be taken in order to protect their existing roster. I'm not sure why you think other GMs wouldn't always be on the lookout for ways to improve their rosters.

They are, but what the Leafs did was highly, highly unconventional.

 

[zeke]

Keefe can't even get a single vote for Coach of the Year for this season so far this season... I doubt Dubas gets anywhere near GM of the Year.

This was 2 days ago. Not a single vote. Toronto bias my ass.

Oh no doubt.

Even though Dubas and Keefe should both be favorites, they won't be.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Keefe can't even get a single vote for Coach of the Year for this season so far this season... I doubt Dubas gets anywhere near GM of the Year.

This was 2 days ago. Not a single vote. Toronto bias my ass.

Daryl Sutter absolutely deserves the award. The flames have gone from complete trash to being a defensive machine running on all cylinders. Don't think anyone else really comes close.

 

[SprDaVE]

Daryl Sutter absolutely deserves the award. The flames have gone from complete trash to being a defensive machine running on all cylinders. Don't think anyone else really comes close.

The point isn't that Sutter doesn't deserve recognition. It's more that Keefe doesn't have a single vote.

This wasn't a month ago when the Leafs struggled. This was 2 days ago this article came out.

I don't really care if you despise the Leafs, but come on... come on. Paul freaking Maurice has votes. Gerard Gallant has votes. Brad Larsen.... LINDY RUFF. Keefe? Nope.

Look at this:

Voting totals (points awarded on a 5-4-3-2-1- basis): Rod Brind'Amour, Carolina Hurricanes 63 points (10 first-place votes); Darryl Sutter, Calgary Flames, 52 (two); Dallas Eakins, Anaheim Ducks, 42 (four); Gerard Gallant, New York Rangers, 22; Dave Tippett, Edmonton Oilers, 20; Dean Evason, Minnesota Wild, 14; Peter Laviolette, Washington Capitals, 13 (one); Brad Larsen, Columbus Blue Jackets, 9; Jon Cooper, Tampa Bay Lightning, 6; Paul Maurice, Winnipeg Jets, 4; Lindy Ruff, New Jersey Devils, 3; Andrew Brunette, Florida Panthers, 3; Jeff Blashill, Detroit Red Wings, 2; Mike Sullivan, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1; Todd McLellan, Los Angeles Kings, 1