The New and really Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

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I agree Pittsburgh was let down by their goaltending… But let’s not forget or misrepresent how bad Varlamov was in that series, to the point he literally lost the net to Sorokin for letting in soft goals.

The idea the Islanders ride hot goaltending is objectively false. (I know this wasn’t your point, but I see this narrative a lot) They’ve gotten mediocre goaltending for the majority of their last two playoff runs but defend well enough as a team to compensate.

Lehner, Varlamov, Sorokin, it doesn’t seem to matter. They all have great numbers playing behind this group, but none have been immune to backbreaking softies.

Yea, Whats great about the Isles goaltending (lets not forget about Greiss' contributions) is that when one faltered, they always had a guy ready to go that would actually pick up the team to steady whoever was number 1 at the time.......but.....

lets not pretend they havnt been blessed with some of the best goalkeeping in the league for a while now and it is really part of their identity.

Highest team save% in the regular season over the last 3 seasons:

1. Islanders
2. Stars
3. Bruins
4. Lightning
5. Jets

Highest team save% in the playoffs over the last 3 seasons:

1. Blue Jackets
2. Canucks
3. Canadiens
4. Lightning
5. Islanders

Three Cinderella teams and then the stalwart good playoff goaltending teams. The Islanders are a good mix of solid defence, timely scoring and great goaltending.

I can see why some would make the goaltending connection you are inferring as the only bad stretch of hockey they had over that time was the 2nd half of the 2019-2020 season (before the Covid stoppage) where they went from first in the league to very nearly crashing out of the playoffs and an uncharacteristically bad save% (below league average) seemed to be the main issue. (there was more to it of course)
 
Dubas defenders have to cling to technicalities to explain the regression. Yes, they made the expanded playoff setup. They failed to qualify for the round of 16, the traditional number of teams in the playoffs. And they were not close in that series to boot.

I don't consider the last 2 years as real NHL seasons.

And I hold the players most accountable for what they accomplish.

Coaches are next in line.
 
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I don't consider the last 2 years as real NHL seasons.

And I hold the players most accountable for what they accomplish.

Coaches are next in line.

And how are Leaf players being held accountable.
 
Yea, Whats great about the Isles goaltending (lets not forget about Greiss' contributions) is that when one faltered, they always had a guy ready to go that would actually pick up the team to steady whoever was number 1 at the time.......but.....

lets not pretend they havnt been blessed with some of the best goalkeeping in the league for a while now and it is really part of their identity.

Highest team save% in the regular season over the last 3 seasons:

1. Islanders
2. Stars
3. Bruins
4. Lightning
5. Jets

Highest team save% in the playoffs over the last 3 seasons:

1. Blue Jackets
2. Canucks
3. Canadiens
4. Lightning
5. Islanders

Three Cinderella teams and then the stalwart good playoff goaltending teams. The Islanders are a good mix of solid defence, timely scoring and great goaltending.

I can see why some would make the goaltending connection you are inferring as the only bad stretch of hockey they had over that time was the 2nd half of the 2019-2020 season (before the Covid stoppage) where they went from first in the league to very nearly crashing out of the playoffs and an uncharacteristically bad save% (below league average) seemed to be the main issue. (there was more to it of course)

I feel as though you are trying to argue that goaltending is some random, “good luck” uncontrollable variable that accounts for results you find ‘unexpected.”

Simply put... we got beat because other teams “got lucky.”

I’d counter that it wouldn’t take you long to search this forum for Dubas/Keefe fans who accredited Freddie’s good stats to a “possession” system.

On that basis, I’d disagree with you on two fronts:

1. If the “system” is so spectacular, how come it doesn’t hold up to pressure

2. If the player is the problem, why is Dubas unable to improve on Freddy or Campbell in the way that Fletcher brought in Gilmore or later on brought in Sundin?

Either way... it’s a failure is it not?
 
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And how are Leaf players being held accountable.

We don't know now because nothing has happened since the end of the season.

We know the players haven't been traded.
We know management brought in new players.
We know some players were not re-signed.

Until the games start what else is there to know?
 
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accountability was that the accounting of 4 players with the accounts from MLSE was worth 50% of the cap

;)

Point totals in elimination games:

Matthews/Marner/Nylander/Tavares (in only two games due to injury): 16 points and almost every player PPG
Entire rest of the team over two years: 12 points

Hey, were making a profit on them right now. ;)
 
There is no regression. It's quite ironic that you call it a "technicality", yet talk about missing the final 16, as if that was determined in any "traditional" way. We were a top-16 team in the league, and top-8 in the conference, and under "traditional" rules, we would have been a playoff team. Under the rules established for that season, we were playoff team. So really, we were a playoff team either way.

The series was actually extremely close.

It wasn't close. Lost 4 games out of 5 if not for a bolt of lightning. And then laid an egg in game 5. All to a not very good team.

As for that season, they were heading in the wrong direction as the season was coming to a close. Remember the west coast trip? Who knows what would have happened if they played the rest of that season, but either way, just limping into the playoffs was not to be viewed as a success. And as it played out, they lost to an average at best team in a play in and it wasn't particularly close. No matter what, they didn't make it to round of 16, which is a step back from the previous year. You can spin however you want, but it was a disaster.
 
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I don't consider the last 2 years as real NHL seasons.

And I hold the players most accountable for what they accomplish.

Coaches are next in line.

GM fields the team. He thought these players were elite. Shanny thought Dubas was elite. But have been proven wrong and should be removed from their jobs.
 
I feel as though you are trying to argue that goaltending is some random, “good luck” uncontrollable variable that accounts for results you find ‘unexpected.”

Simply put... we got beat because other teams “got lucky.”

I’d counter that it wouldn’t take you long to search this forum for Dubas/Keefe fans who accredited Freddie’s good stats to a “possession” system.

On that basis, I’d disagree with you on two fronts:

1. If the “system” is so spectacular, how come it doesn’t hold up to pressure

2. If the player is the problem, why is Dubas unable to improve on Freddy or Campbell in the way that Fletcher brought in Gilmore or later on brought in Sundin?

Either way... it’s a failure is it not?

Hey, Goaltending is voodoo....you must have heard of this before....Why does Murray come out of nowhere and carry the Pens to two cups and then turn into a pumpkin again? what happened with "the net detective"? Why did Freddy Andersen have the worst save% on the PK last year than almost any goaltender in Leafs history but Campbell rocked a .910 behind the same D in the same system?

Freddy was a great goaltender who carried this team for like 3 years. Wear and tear and injuries take their toll though and inconsistencies started occurring more frequently until Freddy just wasn't Freddy anymore. I hope he does well with the Canes but things arnt looking good IMO. North of 30 with a lot of miles on him.

Campbell was definitely better this year but he cant take a hard grind like Freddy used to. Maybe its why he got progressively worse in the Habs series. Mrazek being the same sort of guy looks perfect to run a tandem this year. Much like the Isles have done so successfully, if you see a guy faltering, throw in the other guy whos been playing in games all year but is fresh.
 
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Hey, Goaltending is voodoo....you must have heard of this before....Why does Murray come out of nowhere and carry the Pens to two cups and then turn into a pumpkin again? what happened with "the net detective"? Why did Freddy Andersen have the worst save% on the PK last year than almost any goaltender in Leafs history but Campbell rocked a .910 behind the same D in the same system?

Freddy was a great goaltender who carried this team for like 3 years. Wear and tear and injuries take their toll though and inconsistencies started occurring more frequently until Freddy just wasn't Freddy anymore. I hope he does well with the Canes but things arnt looking good IMO. North of 30 with a lot of miles on him.

Campbell was definitely better this year but he cant take a hard grind like Freddy used to. Maybe its why he got progressively worse in the Habs series. Mrazek being the same sort of guy looks perfect to run a tandem this year. Much like the Isles have done so successfully, if you see a guy faltering, throw in the other guy whos been playing in games all year but is fresh.

so what’s the point of having so much invested in the core if we can be defeated by voodoo?

Shouldn’t we buy some dolls and pins or something?

and if it is all voodoo... perhaps Dubas should stop taking people’s money to speak at events related to statistics and success in sport.
 
so what’s the point of having so much invested in the core if we can be defeated by voodoo?

Shouldn’t we buy some dolls and pins or something?

and if it is all voodoo... perhaps Dubas should stop taking people’s money to speak at events related to statistics and success in sport.

Hey, you make the best bets you can man....and Freddy looked like a sure bet from 2016-2019 right. Carolina is the one making the huge gamble on him right now really. We got more than our money's worth....but I know deep down you are talking about the playoffs.....

Lets just be healthy this year. That would be a start.....and yea thats more a luck thing but I wanna see this team a full capacity for the next run. Its gonna make a huge difference.
 
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so what’s the point of having so much invested in the core if we can be defeated by voodoo?

Shouldn’t we buy some dolls and pins or something?

and if it is all voodoo... perhaps Dubas should stop taking people’s money to speak at events related to statistics and success in sport.

When had this actually happened? - The Sloan conference is run out of MIT and academic institutions generally speaking don't pay panelists or speakers

Seems an odd thing to fixate on.
 
so what’s the point of having so much invested in the core if we can be defeated by voodoo?

Shouldn’t we buy some dolls and pins or something?

and if it is all voodoo... perhaps Dubas should stop taking people’s money to speak at events related to statistics and success in sport.
This is how I feel exactly.
 
It can be a pretty simple question.

if you were running a conference on the use of statistics to achieve success in sport....

would you pay thousands to have Kyle Dubas be a keynote speaker?

If you answer yes, remember that this isn’t a satirical event. Try again.

Would you like to see Dubas as keynote speaker to be open about our advanced statistics?

I wouldn't, because this is profession where you try to keep your secrets as secrets, because the competitive advantage comes from what you know that your rivals don't know. So I'd think that our department have pretty stiff NDAs. That also means, that you have to have your own research, because you don't want to trust public models. You have to build your own, which is slow.

Off course if I'd hire keynote speakers from sports business I'd run after Toto Wolff, but I have no idea what are they're secrets before and not after that keynote, because those are classified information. Once Wolff states something Mercedes is doing Ferrari is going to research it.

Your example is flawed and though. Also Dubas isn't there running numbers, they have their own directors.
 
GM fields the team. He thought these players were elite. Shanny thought Dubas was elite. But have been proven wrong and should be removed from their jobs.

Yes, he signed Tavares, he didn't draft / acquire Matthews, marner, Nylander. Other GM's acquired those players, and they lost because 2 of them laid an egg, and one was knocked out by injury.
 
It wasn't close. Lost 4 games out of 5 if not for a bolt of lightning.
It was close. We did not lose 4 out of 5 games. We took the series to its maximum length and lost 3 out of 5 games, while posting a similar number of goals, despite losing Muzzin and facing an amazing goaltending performance. You can't just pretend one of the greatest comebacks of the modern era didn't happen because it doesn't fit your story.
As for that season, they were heading in the wrong direction as the season was coming to a close.
No, they weren't. They were finally getting healthy, after being completely decimated to injury for months. We were 4-2-1 in the last 7 games, and we won our last game before the break against the eventual Cup champions.
just limping into the playoffs was not to be viewed as a success.
Whether the season was a success or not is an entirely different discussion. The fact is, we made the playoffs.
 
Yea, Whats great about the Isles goaltending (lets not forget about Greiss' contributions) is that when one faltered, they always had a guy ready to go that would actually pick up the team to steady whoever was number 1 at the time.......but.....

lets not pretend they havnt been blessed with some of the best goalkeeping in the league for a while now and it is really part of their identity.

Highest team save% in the regular season over the last 3 seasons:

1. Islanders
2. Stars
3. Bruins
4. Lightning
5. Jets

Highest team save% in the playoffs over the last 3 seasons:

1. Blue Jackets
2. Canucks
3. Canadiens
4. Lightning
5. Islanders

Three Cinderella teams and then the stalwart good playoff goaltending teams. The Islanders are a good mix of solid defence, timely scoring and great goaltending.

I can see why some would make the goaltending connection you are inferring as the only bad stretch of hockey they had over that time was the 2nd half of the 2019-2020 season (before the Covid stoppage) where they went from first in the league to very nearly crashing out of the playoffs and an uncharacteristically bad save% (below league average) seemed to be the main issue. (there was more to it of course)
What you call the best goaltending in the league for a while now, I call the best goaltending situation in the league, for a while now. They play so many near perfect games that it would be fair to expect any competent NHL goalie to put up good numbers. This style that so many called boring is something many coaches would call beautiful. They do such a great job collectively of making quality chances hard to come by. Obviously the defense is pretty smothering, don't make a lot of mistakes, don't turn the puck over, everyone is boxing out, let goalie see the puck, tie up sticks trying to deflect shots or get second chances on rebounds etc etc.... All the simple little things that good teams do, they have 18 skaters busting their balls to do it every game. This makes a goalies job as easy at it can be.

Great goaltending numbers, for sure.. but I would say they're skewed a little, wouldn't you? The question is why... Unless you think the Islanders group has been better than the likes of Vasilevsky, Rask, Hellebuyck it would be fair to say the team in front plays a pretty big role. Vasilevsky and Varlamov are in different stratospheres..

.. and I guess I mostly quoted you to point out how terrible Varlamov has been in the playoffs at times. Freddy Anderson is a much, much better goalie. Its fair to say Freddy has given up a few he needed to have over his playoff career as a Leaf but the level of stink isn't the same. It smells a little different when 5 skaters are in position doing their job and the goalie gives up a weak wrister from the half wall short-side shelf - one we'd expect a pee wee rep goalie to have 99/100 VS down 1 in the 3rd period of an elimination game, 4 players go for a line change when the puck is in their zone, allowing opponent to collect the puck and walk into a 3 (possibly 4) on 1 as a threat to shoot or pass to the slot. The shot itself is one the goalie needs to have, but the circumstances surrounding it including the overlooked detail that he has to be anticipating whether thats a shot or pass to some degree and it looked like he guessed wrong. Good play by the shooter, too. Hard into their feet from that angle can be tough for a goalie to handle, especially when he's loaded on one leg in preparation to push off.

And voodoo? I'm not even sure what you mean by that. When I listen to people who've played and/or teach the position, they're consistently right far too often for it to be anything other than an art. If you try to make it into a science with numbers, I can understand why the confusion would provoke words like voodoo, though. The stats tell you what happened, they'll never tell you why... The why is what you need to intelligently evaluate and project.
 
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Would you like to see Dubas as keynote speaker to be open about our advanced statistics?

I wouldn't, because this is profession where you try to keep your secrets as secrets, because the competitive advantage comes from what you know that your rivals don't know. So I'd think that our department have pretty stiff NDAs. That also means, that you have to have your own research, because you don't want to trust public models. You have to build your own, which is slow.

Off course if I'd hire keynote speakers from sports business I'd run after Toto Wolff, but I have no idea what are they're secrets before and not after that keynote, because those are classified information. Once Wolff states something Mercedes is doing Ferrari is going to research it.

Your example is flawed and though. Also Dubas isn't there running numbers, they have their own directors.

Well Dubas does speak publicly about the use of data. So...

The spirit of the question is whether he is any good at the thing he professes to be an expert on.

You claim he doesn’t run the numbers. Even if true, he assembles the team... takes in the information and makes directional decisions.

These decisions haven’t achieved any success in the post season. These are the same results with a team lead by Phil Kessel and Vesa Toskala.
 
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Analytics are about improving your team and increasing your chances, not about guaranteeing success in every 4-7 game sample, regardless of context. Nothing does that.
 
What you call the best goaltending in the league for a while now, I call the best goaltending situation in the league, for a while now. They play so many near perfect games that it would be fair to expect any competent NHL goalie to put up good numbers. This style that so many called boring is something many coaches would call beautiful. They do such a great job collectively of making quality chances hard to come by. Obviously the defense is pretty smothering, don't make a lot of mistakes, don't turn the puck over, everyone is boxing out, let goalie see the puck, tie up sticks trying to deflect shots or get second chances on rebounds etc etc.... All the simple little things that good teams do, they have 18 skaters busting their balls to do it every game. This makes a goalies job as easy at it can be.

Great goaltending numbers, for sure.. but I would say they're skewed a little, wouldn't you? The question is why... Unless you think the Islanders group has been better than the likes of Vasilevsky, Rask, Hellebuyck it would be fair to say the team in front plays a pretty big role. Vasilevsky and Varlamov are in different stratospheres..

I actually agree with you here that Vasy is in a different category, mainly because he performs so much better than anyone else Tampa has thrown in the net over the last few years that's it's a markedly noticeable difference. What the Islanders have done is consistently dress above-average goaltending to go along with their solid D. Lehner was a Vezina finalist 3 years ago, Griess just left the team as having one of the highest save% in Islander goalies history and Varlamov came 5th in Vezina voting this year. With Sorokin looking like another ace pickup, I think their goaltending department deserves some praise. It's not just their good D.


.. and I guess I mostly quoted you to point out how terrible Varlamov has been in the playoffs at times. Freddy Anderson is a much, much better goalie. Its fair to say Freddy has given up a few he needed to have over his playoff career as a Leaf but the level of stink isn't the same. It smells a little different when 5 skaters are in position doing their job and the goalie gives up a weak wrister from the half wall short-side shelf - one we'd expect a pee wee rep goalie to have 99/100 VS down 1 in the 3rd period of an elimination game, 4 players go for a line change when the puck is in their zone, allowing opponent to collect the puck and walk into a 3 (possibly 4) on 1 as a threat to shoot or pass to the slot. The shot itself is one the goalie needs to have, but the circumstances surrounding it including the overlooked detail that he has to be anticipating whether thats a shot or pass to some degree and it looked like he guessed wrong. Good play by the shooter, too. Hard into their feet from that angle can be tough for a goalie to handle, especially when he's loaded on one leg in preparation to push off.

Your defense of Freddy is admirable but I push back that Andersen was once a much better goalie. Along with the injection of the high powered young core, he was the reason for the Leafs early success in the Matthews era. From 2016 to the end of the 2019 season, the Leafs enjoyed the 5th best team save% in the league. This wasnt due to their team defensive structure I assure you. They were bottom 5 in almost every way we track team D. The problem was that a massive workhorse like Andersen can't keep that up forever once Freddy started to slip and inconsistency crept more and more into his game, it was offset by the growth of the young players and when the start of the 2019 season came around things really went downhill for Freddy. He was still capable of going on a run but shots started going right through him and he seemed slow to react. It's like the play you are referencing. If he quickly recognizes the situation and collects the puck behind the net, theres no chance....or if that useless plug Marincin (who replaced the Leafs best playoff D in Muzzin who went down with injury) just pressures the guy, nothing happens as well as the changing players would have had opposing players covered. Or Andersen could have just hugged the post properly as Marincin was picking daisies in front of the net covering anyways. Lots of things went wrong on that play but I wouldnt put it down as a classic example of anything.

Why do you think Babcock got fired? It's because that run and gun system doesn't work so well when team goaltending falls from top 5 to below average. Once Keefe came on board, team D trended towards the top 10 and made up for the slippage in net and the Leafs have actually given Andersen all the rope in the world the last year and a half really. Yet here are the stats with the Leafs since Keefe was hired:

Campbell:
GP: 28
Save%: .920

Hutchinson:
GP: 17
Save%: .905

Andersen:
GP: 59
Save%: .903

The Leafs have been plagued by injuries for much of Keefe's tenure (including to Andersen himself) that may be affecting these numbers but it doesnt look good. Big gamble by the Canes to throw that money and term on a guy north of 30 trending in that direction.

And voodoo? I'm not even sure what you mean by that. When I listen to people who've played and/or teach the position, they're consistently right far too often for it to be anything other than an art. If you try to make it into a science with numbers, I can understand why the confusion would provoke words like voodoo, though. The stats tell you what happened, they'll never tell you why... The why is what you need to intelligently evaluate and project.

I dunno, maybe it's the level of importance that goaltending takes in the game that makes it so mysterious then. I actually think the Leafs are looking at the Islanders successful tandem system when they picked up Mrazek, a guy like Campbell who plays well but wears down with too big a load.

When looking at team D numbers since Keefe came on board, the Leafs and Isles match up well defensively. Having another .920 keeper on the roster instead of what Andersen brought over that time will do wonders as well as give Keefe a confident option coming off the bench in the playoffs.

Fewest shots against ranking since Keefe was hired (league wide):
Toronto: 10th in the NHL
NYI: 11th in the NHL

Fewest High Danger Chances Against ranking since Keefe was hired (league wide):
Toronto: 8th in the NHL
NYI: 13th in the NHL

Fewest Expected Goals Against ranking since Keefe was hired (league wide):
Toronto: 5th in the NHL
NYI: 9th in the NHL

These number's are skewed by the strange covid year of course but I'm very interested to see how things play out.
 
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Yes, he signed Tavares, he didn't draft / acquire Matthews, marner, Nylander. Other GM's acquired those players, and they lost because 2 of them laid an egg, and one was knocked out by injury.

But they were paid by the inexperienced GM like they were elite of the elite. Unfortunate franchise altering mistake.
 
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It was close. We did not lose 4 out of 5 games. We took the series to its maximum length and lost 3 out of 5 games, while posting a similar number of goals, despite losing Muzzin and facing an amazing goaltending performance. You can't just pretend one of the greatest comebacks of the modern era didn't happen because it doesn't fit your story.

No, they weren't. They were finally getting healthy, after being completely decimated to injury for months. We were 4-2-1 in the last 7 games, and we won our last game before the break against the eventual Cup champions.

Whether the season was a success or not is an entirely different discussion. The fact is, we made the playoffs.

Yes, the Leafs meet the lower than normal requirement to "make the playoffs". Was a step back no matter what spin you put on it.

About the comeback, it's something that is very unlikely to happen more than 1 out of a 1000 times. It was a fluke. Fair play to the Leafs for doing it, but they were badly outplayed that game and then badly outplayed in game 5. And again, this wasn't a very good team they lost to. Sad.
 
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