OT: The Melancholy of the Edmonton Oilers

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Njoy Oilers

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
3,339
1
Southern Alberta.
I have mentioned in multiple threads that I think the issue with this team is balance. Yes the kids are young and still developing but they are having to eat up the toughest minutes with little to no veteran help.

Aside from the extreme lack of grit I feel this lack of balance is a central issue.

I agree with rumrokh (to an extent) that roster tweaking is required but I see it as more than tweeking. Some of the pieces the Oilers need are hard to come by..

Mike Keenan recently blasted the Oilers org for developing a team which (in his words) had no personality. I think he meant identity and he may have had a point.

What is the identity of this team? Anybody?

To the young Oilers, sky is the limit & hear the speculation of their Greatness and think they have to carry the team.
To the rest of us. Mayhem induced by a mysterious management.

In other words - no identity.

:help:
 

Njoy Oilers

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
3,339
1
Southern Alberta.
No it doesn't...They underperformed last year terribly. A team with Carey Price as there starting goalie has an extra few wins just because of him. We have an inexperienced goalie and an inexperienced top 6.

Sorry. Not really thinking in terms of play on the ice. More, that no real help was offered to the top 6 this year by mgmnt. Montreal went out and added pieces, and still are.
 

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
34,378
14,877
To the young Oilers, sky is the limit & hear the speculation of their Greatness and think they have to carry the team.
To the rest of us. Mayhem induced by a mysterious management.

In other words - no identity.

:help:

I agree.
Or worse...Oilers hockey has come to mean consistently losing puck battles and refusing to shoot it into the zone and/or on net when you do have the puck.
 

Njoy Oilers

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
3,339
1
Southern Alberta.
I agree.
Or worse...Oilers hockey has come to mean consistently losing puck battles and refusing to shoot it into the zone and/or on net when you do have the puck.

Skilled gritty player or two would give our talented softer players some more room/ confidence to do that. I stopped getting a quarter from the tooth fairy years ago though. :cry:
 

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
34,378
14,877
Skilled gritty player or two would give our talented softer players some more room/ confidence to do that. I stopped getting a quarter from the tooth fairy years ago though. :cry:

Absolutely...this team desperately needs some top 9 grit.

That may explain why they refuse to shoot the puck into the zone and retrieve it...they know they are going to lose the majority of the puck battles so whats the point?
 

oilers_smyth_94

Registered User
Feb 18, 2007
442
3
We're a few trades away from being alright in my opinion, they just need to get done.
It must be time to start thinking for rentals. We need secondary scoring, some size and toughness, and our face-offs need to improve.

Take a look at 06, we weren't a playoff team. Then we got Spacek and Tarnstrom essentially to replace an Ulanov and a Cory Cross in the line-up. We got Roloson to beat out Conkannen, we signed Rem Murray which helped up the middle and got Samsonov which added some more scoring. Same concept still applies. Upgrades where needed, and yes, we had Pronger, but guys stepped up and it went far.

Horcoff > Vandevelde
? > Hartikainen, Petrell, Eager (although I like his play of late)
? > Whitney, Potter, Peckham

Those are the upgrades needed in my opinion to make the team better. Depth chart can get shaken up, guys can get bumped off. It's natural and it's what it takes to win.
 

elpol

Re-Registered User
Nov 5, 2008
1,010
0
vancouver
Why does the disconnect between in how Oiler mgmt sees the team going forward, and how fans see the team seem to be growing?

Fans will generally never be completely happy with their team..

How much evidence in that how other 'successful' nhl franchises will supplement, tweak and compliment their prospect pool with complimentary parts until a successful mix is found? Isn't there already enough proof out there that the stand-by and wait for prospects to come around without surrounding them with a good supporting cast, appears to be dooming us to a future like the Islanders or the Panthers?

Say what you want about Mtl; they did what was necessary to jump start the franchise out of underachievement - I think I'd choke on my cheerios if the Oilers mgmt actually showed any moxy to make so-called hockey trades. Gilbert/Shultz isn't a hockey trade. Getting Fistric for almost nothing isn't either. Lets see them do something that will be unpopular and crazy, you know, like trading a top prospect for another top prospect that fits your needs better.

Someone somewhere in a recent post on HFOil made the comment that perhaps the Oil should have taken Larssen or Landeskog instead of RNH. When they showed the 'resulting roster', minus RNH? They forgot to include either of those players. I find it hard to play what-if, because each decision made always leads to a unique path of consequences. The only real constant we could all probably agree upon is that Mgmt would not have done any differently in tweaking or upgrading the supporting cast. To follow that logic? We'd probably be exactly where we are right at this moment, but with a slightly different looking roster.

We talk of trading certain players over and over. I've got what might be unpopular or 'stupid'. Go after some of the bona-fide contenders prospect pool by offering parts that could put them over the top in their push for the cup. For example, Horcoff. Yes Horcoff. He could be that 3rd line centre for a team who needs an experienced centreman, who can play in almost all situations and will understand what it takes to get to the final, but would probably be better suited as a supporting, complimentary part. He'll probably not be around long enough to experience the Oil becoming a contender again, so why not give him that opportunity elsewhere?

Ryan Jones is another such player who could make a valuable contribution to a contender now. Nick Schultz would be a depth offering for a team needing defensive depth for a long playoff run. Whitney? Not so much, or he would have been traded already. Unless, the Oilers are (once again) way over-valuing their players and demanding far too much in return.

Hemsky? He's just not hockey-smart enough, doesn't make players around him that much better, and the Oilers way over-value his worth, imo. If he had a better hockey brain? He'd be damned near as valuable to a contender as Hossa is to the Hawks.

Based on what others say in here, nobody wants the holy ones touched: RNH, Eberle, Hall, Yak, and Schultz. Yet, I'd submit that one of them can't be an Oiler for the long haul if the team is serious about getting to the next level. My guess at this point? Eberle might be the odd man out. Think for a moment what he might fetch us in return. The Oilers will relentlessly stick with RNH because they want their damned Elite centre. RNH might get there, we'll just have to see, cause I really don't think the Oilers will do otherwise.

Year after year for some time now, we are faced with a team that simply can't or won't compete with it's opposition on an equal/level basis. This isn't only coaching or just the players or just the management; This is on the whole organization.

I've been very critical of Daryl Katz in the past and have taken a bit of heat for it. I think his business model for the franchise is the single biggest obstacle to it's success. It's an expensive toy for a very rich boy. It's his to do with as he pleases, and I think he's doing exactly that. None of us should really be surprised or outraged at how things are evolving with the team given how he chooses to have it operated.

The old-boy-club, nepotistic, in-bred nature of the Oilers brain trust is exactly what he wants, because it's his right and his team. Nothing more, nothing less. That means that us fans are left to decide whether or not we want to go along for the ride.
 

SeriousBusiness

T.Hall da man
Oct 5, 2003
3,628
3
Why does the disconnect between in how Oiler mgmt sees the team going forward, and how fans see the team seem to be growing?

Fans will generally never be completely happy with their team..

How much evidence in that how other 'successful' nhl franchises will supplement, tweak and compliment their prospect pool with complimentary parts until a successful mix is found? Isn't there already enough proof out there that the stand-by and wait for prospects to come around without surrounding them with a good supporting cast, appears to be dooming us to a future like the Islanders or the Panthers?

Say what you want about Mtl; they did what was necessary to jump start the franchise out of underachievement - I think I'd choke on my cheerios if the Oilers mgmt actually showed any moxy to make so-called hockey trades. Gilbert/Shultz isn't a hockey trade. Getting Fistric for almost nothing isn't either. Lets see them do something that will be unpopular and crazy, you know, like trading a top prospect for another top prospect that fits your needs better.

Someone somewhere in a recent post on HFOil made the comment that perhaps the Oil should have taken Larssen or Landeskog instead of RNH. When they showed the 'resulting roster', minus RNH? They forgot to include either of those players. I find it hard to play what-if, because each decision made always leads to a unique path of consequences. The only real constant we could all probably agree upon is that Mgmt would not have done any differently in tweaking or upgrading the supporting cast. To follow that logic? We'd probably be exactly where we are right at this moment, but with a slightly different looking roster.

We talk of trading certain players over and over. I've got what might be unpopular or 'stupid'. Go after some of the bona-fide contenders prospect pool by offering parts that could put them over the top in their push for the cup. For example, Horcoff. Yes Horcoff. He could be that 3rd line centre for a team who needs an experienced centreman, who can play in almost all situations and will understand what it takes to get to the final, but would probably be better suited as a supporting, complimentary part. He'll probably not be around long enough to experience the Oil becoming a contender again, so why not give him that opportunity elsewhere?

Ryan Jones is another such player who could make a valuable contribution to a contender now. Nick Schultz would be a depth offering for a team needing defensive depth for a long playoff run. Whitney? Not so much, or he would have been traded already. Unless, the Oilers are (once again) way over-valuing their players and demanding far too much in return.

Hemsky? He's just not hockey-smart enough, doesn't make players around him that much better, and the Oilers way over-value his worth, imo. If he had a better hockey brain? He'd be damned near as valuable to a contender as Hossa is to the Hawks.

Based on what others say in here, nobody wants the holy ones touched: RNH, Eberle, Hall, Yak, and Schultz. Yet, I'd submit that one of them can't be an Oiler for the long haul if the team is serious about getting to the next level. My guess at this point? Eberle might be the odd man out. Think for a moment what he might fetch us in return. The Oilers will relentlessly stick with RNH because they want their damned Elite centre. RNH might get there, we'll just have to see, cause I really don't think the Oilers will do otherwise.

Year after year for some time now, we are faced with a team that simply can't or won't compete with it's opposition on an equal/level basis. This isn't only coaching or just the players or just the management; This is on the whole organization.

I've been very critical of Daryl Katz in the past and have taken a bit of heat for it. I think his business model for the franchise is the single biggest obstacle to it's success. It's an expensive toy for a very rich boy. It's his to do with as he pleases, and I think he's doing exactly that. None of us should really be surprised or outraged at how things are evolving with the team given how he chooses to have it operated.

The old-boy-club, nepotistic, in-bred nature of the Oilers brain trust is exactly what he wants, because it's his right and his team. Nothing more, nothing less. That means that us fans are left to decide whether or not we want to go along for the ride.

We don't need to surround our kids with more kids, we need to surround our kids with vets who can actually contribute to the team.

I don't see the benefit of trading a guy like Jones. He's exactly the kind of guy we need playing in our bottom 6. Same with N. Schultz. Great guy to have on the backend.
 

elpol

Re-Registered User
Nov 5, 2008
1,010
0
vancouver
We don't need to surround our kids with more kids, we need to surround our kids with vets who can actually contribute to the team.

I don't see the benefit of trading a guy like Jones. He's exactly the kind of guy we need playing in our bottom 6. Same with N. Schultz. Great guy to have on the backend.
Perhaps I wasn't clear in my meaning. I didn't actually want to suggest we should just continue loading up on prospects. Good organizations are able to recognize and replace valuable parts with valuable parts, or similarly typed players who might just need changes of scenery, etc.

The players I named are the types that other organizations will likely actually want from us. If we want something worthwhile back in return, these are the types of players that have to be in play. I don't think we'll achieve anything by constantly trying to trade Hemsky or Whitney on these boards for the promised-land type of help the Oilers need.
 

SeriousBusiness

T.Hall da man
Oct 5, 2003
3,628
3
Perhaps I wasn't clear in my meaning. I didn't actually want to suggest we should just continue loading up on prospects. Good organizations are able to recognize and replace valuable parts with valuable parts, or similarly typed players who might just need changes of scenery, etc.

The players I named are the types that other organizations will likely actually want from us. If we want something worthwhile back in return, these are the types of players that have to be in play. I don't think we'll achieve anything by constantly trying to trade Hemsky or Whitney on these boards for the promised-land type of help the Oilers need.

I agree with you 100% on this.
 

Moonlapse Vertigo

Katz n' MacT BFFs
Oct 2, 2009
17,077
0
Edmonton
Markov, while a great player doesn't explain the jump from 28th in the league to second in the Eastern Conference.

Bergevin > Tambi

They also have a better coach.
 

KeithIsActuallyBad

You thrust your pelvis, huh!
Apr 12, 2010
74,427
33,863
Calgary
Markov, while a great player doesn't explain the jump from 28th in the league to second in the Eastern Conference.

Bergevin > Tambi

They also have a better coach.
I think it has a lot to do with it. A healthy markov helps them immensely. Remember how good Whitney was pre-injury? It's like that
 

Moonlapse Vertigo

Katz n' MacT BFFs
Oct 2, 2009
17,077
0
Edmonton
As good as Whitney was playing he wasn't really helping us win hockey games. No, there's an entirely different swagger and urgency to this Canadiens team this year. That's what happens when you clean house and hold people accountable.
 

elpol

Re-Registered User
Nov 5, 2008
1,010
0
vancouver
As good as Whitney was playing he wasn't really helping us win hockey games. No, there's an entirely different swagger and urgency to this Canadiens team this year. That's what happens when you clean house and hold people accountable.
This is where I wonder aloud: Are the Oilers simply not capable of the kind of accountability we fans think they should be?
 

Soundwave

Registered User
Mar 1, 2007
73,385
29,340
I have mentioned in multiple threads that I think the issue with this team is balance. Yes the kids are young and still developing but they are having to eat up the toughest minutes with little to no veteran help.

Aside from the extreme lack of grit I feel this lack of balance is a central issue.

I agree with rumrokh (to an extent) that roster tweaking is required but I see it as more than tweeking. Some of the pieces the Oilers need are hard to come by..

Mike Keenan recently blasted the Oilers org for developing a team which (in his words) had no personality. I think he meant identity and he may have had a point.

What is the identity of this team? Anybody?

They're an East Coast team ... playing in the Western Conference right now in an oddball year where we play no one from the East. That's part of it.
 

Trafalgar Sadge Law

Registered User
Nov 8, 2007
11,535
7,030
I have mentioned in multiple threads that I think the issue with this team is balance. Yes the kids are young and still developing but they are having to eat up the toughest minutes with little to no veteran help.

Aside from the extreme lack of grit I feel this lack of balance is a central issue.

I agree with rumrokh (to an extent) that roster tweaking is required but I see it as more than tweeking. Some of the pieces the Oilers need are hard to come by..

Mike Keenan recently blasted the Oilers org for developing a team which (in his words) had no personality. I think he meant identity and he may have had a point.

What is the identity of this team? Anybody?

The identity of this team is the leech off Taylor Hall team.
 

The Big Foot

Registered User
Oct 12, 2008
2,598
0
How can anyone say Gilbert/Schultz was not a hockey trade?? That is the best example possible of trading what you don't really need for what you do really need.
 

zeus3007*

Guest
We need a "doom and gloom" sticky, so we don't have to have 50 percent of our threads whining threads like this one.

1) We are a team of young players. They are developing and finding their identity. No, we aren't a cup contender. No, nobody with a brain should have expected us to be.

2) Our fans are bi-polar. We could win 5 of 6, and on that one loss, our fans would want to fire everyone, trade everyone, and blow up Rexall Place.
 

KeithIsActuallyBad

You thrust your pelvis, huh!
Apr 12, 2010
74,427
33,863
Calgary
Soon as Tambo grows a set! Seriously though, you really, honestly believe that's all it took? Take off your shades.

Well let's see here. The last time Markov played a full 82 game season, the Habs finished first in the East...

He played 13 last year and they finished 15th.

The guy's a hell of a hockey player an a difference maker. Sure I think the new coach and GM helped but getting him back and healthy helps their back end immensely.
 

BadMedicine*

Guest
I think we have a Stanley cup roster right now.

I think we are learning to execute Ralphs system consistantly.

I think Ralphs system is the same one we have had here for decades. And it is being used by many teams now. I dont like it and think we need a wholesale change in a new direction and I think we need to use the rest of the shortened season to try a totally new system.

However, Ralph is dialing his system in but he is also showing is greenness at the NHL level in more areas than I feel comfortable with. I see us loseing many games by one or two adustments, we are being consistantly outcoached, and it is because we do not have an ace reading the dynamic pattern and pace of the game, we are missing a key component of an elite system and that is communication. We are not reading and reacting to opponents system adjustments fast enough, that is all that is wrong, the players are fine, the crappy system is no crappier here than in other cities, Tambellini and Lowe are fine our entire ship is as tight as they come, but we are simply playing a complicated system that requires a lot of very fast adjustments and Ralph and his crew are not keeping up to the realtime heartbeat of the games and have almost zero Intuative Dynamic Analysis ability.

I could spend an hour detailing a system to everyone that would solve all of the issues we are having right now and unleash the full offensive potential of our entire roster. I could detail the adjustments Ralph and the opponent coach make for the entire 60 mins AS SOON as they make them, within seconds in most cases. And I have reactive tactics as that activate just as fast. Its called the NewAge Hockey System and If anyone wants to know how it works they can PM me.

There are only four real adjustments we need to master for this system we are trying to use now, but if we arent reading the pulse and pace of the game properly and quick enough we can not compete at the NHL level. We need Intuative Dynamic Analysis in realtime to support Ralph his crew on the bench, and we are not getting it, the organisation put all their eggs into the statistical analysis area of the game by mistake, and were remiss or not aware of the availability of Intuative Dynamic Analysis and they didnt incorporate it on any level.

We are simply not reading and reacting to onice dynamics, and as a result we arent adjusting our system fast enough to win games, when we are in the drivers seat and dictating momentum we dominate but as soon as opposition teams adjust to our systems tactics we fail to see it, and they turn momentum on us and put us on our heels. Then we need to read and recognise their adjustment and re-engage them, this means more hard work. Our core area of adjustments is our defensive zone exits, they catalyse and initiate our offense on every level, that is where we make our terminal decisions. Really this system should be simple to execute because all the real action stems from the defensive zone. We just need an edge, we need to find new and effective tactics and mindsets as a going concern, and right now it is a concern and this season is going.

We only have two areas to look at for this teams position right now, the system and the coach who executes it, one of those two must be unable to provide the results we need, judging by the recent list of coaches we have seen here I would hazard a guess that it is the system we need to change.
 

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