The Management Thread | Live, Play, Repeat Edition

[F A N]

Last offseason should’ve been a great period of adding quality for cheap and less term than ever. The Canucks were only able to sign a sub .900 goalie.

For some reason, trading a future 3rd round pick for a legitimate 1st pairing Dman in Schmidt often gets left out when discussing off season moves around here...

 

[RandV]

Tanev wasn't playing well last year, so it would have been signing a bad contract knowing the player isn't really worth the money on day 1. I will never agree that signing bad contracts is a good strategy, ever.

The thing is contracts like Beagle or Ferland were bad the day they were signed, but Markstrom and Tanev are earning their current market it rate so rather the risk there is if they decline. But this is what the free agent market is willing to play, so if you take a "never" stance on this type of contract that will mean you always walk away from your core/star players walk for nothing when they hit late 20's/early 30's and are free agents.

A GM has to exercise caution and should probably pick and choose but it's not a viable strategy to apply it to everyone.

 

[infinitemile]

You can't defend this kind of stuff. Especially coming from a cocky front office that told us they were about character and then shovelled the ****iest character down our throats for 7 years.

what you don't love Brandon "Grit & Balls" Sutter?

 

[DS7]

For some reason, trading a future 3rd round pick for a legitimate 1st pairing Dman in Schmidt often gets left out when discussing off season moves around here...

In isolation, it was a fantastic move. And you can look up the trade threads to see how many people applauded it.

In the context that we made this trade because we let a legit 1st pairing Dman walk for free to a division rival, and a top 6 winger as well that is lighting us up, and the knowledge that we could have kept a combination of Schmidt and Tanev/Toffoli with better foresight and better cap management. It's cold comfort. For every good move he does is weighed down by three other smaller bad moves that add up.

Similar to Gudbranson where Florida correctly pegged GMJB as someone who would pay premium for a declining asset and initiated the trade talks with him. I tend to think this was more a reaction on GMJB's part than any pre-ordained plan .

 

[4Twenty]

For some reason, trading a future 3rd round pick for a legitimate 1st pairing Dman in Schmidt often gets left out when discussing off season moves around here...

No it doesn’t.

The point is that you’d hope after 6 seasons they could build on what they had.


Adding a top 4 to their existing group. Not getting rid of quality players for quality players. I’m not sure why that’s hard to understand.

You can’t play dumb and pretend this is hindsight. Everyone knew the moves were going to cost them players and cut off their legs at the knee when many hoped they could build on their bubble team.

To add ive yet to witness this legit top pairing D. He’s decent. Blends into the woodwork but it feels like maybe he was a systems player in Vegas, hence their choice to upgrade.

 

[infinitemile]

It'd be so sick to finally get a management group that's pro-active. That's Benning's biggest flaw, really, is that he's slow and reactive. So many examples. He won't move on from players ahead of time because he's too slow and lazy to contact enough GMs and build enough groundwork to get the ball rolling. Even more so, he's never in on interesting targets like an Erik Cernak for instance. We have first-hand accounts from Tanev Toffoli and Stecher that Benning just didn't contact them. He'll show up and hastily adjust the draft order between days 1 and 2, he gets hyperfocused on tall players and grinders who were good 3 years ago.

What are the constants here? Benning doesn't actually do any of the work that he's supposed to do. He approaches this sports franchise like it's a day at a sports club, hanging out with his buddies and havin a good time watchin hockey. Does Benning ever, for instance, uh, conduct performance reviews? Self-reflect on the way that he approaches his job? Reading Gillis' presentation to the Pens makes me sick, he's basically all about eliminating groupthink and maximizing people's talents while staying on the cutting edge of the industry. Benning can't even spell half of those words I just wrote.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

For some reason, trading a future 3rd round pick for a legitimate 1st pairing Dman in Schmidt often gets left out when discussing off season moves around here...

Yes, why is Jim Benning not getting credit for all the defensemen he added to the Canucks, one of the worst defensive teams in the league

 

[xtra]

Is it possible that Tanev was playing well given the assignment of baby sitting Hughes who looks like an absolute nightmare with everyone else.

Covid got Calgary a deal. 4 years is reasonable. So is the AAV. It only looks pricey because the team is up against it.

That's actually a fair point. I hadn't seen his numbers this year but his analytics are actually quite strong with Calgary. Small sample size, but definitely the opposite of how he was trending last year. To @Nucker101's point, it could be partially due to the system and to your point it could be partially due to babysitting Hughes.

This might be an interesting thing to track.

how tanev does this year away from Hughes and how Hughes partners do with him as opposed to last year.

it could show us if Hughes is a liability that’s actually bringing down players defensively while putting up the nice counting stats.

 

[4Twenty]

This might be an interesting thing to track.

how tanev does this year away from Hughes and how Hughes partners do with him as opposed to last year.

it could show us if Hughes is a liability that’s actually bringing down players defensively while putting up the nice counting stats.

But the one constant is Travis Green and his 5 on 5 PK structure.

I think Hughes recognizes he has to do more without Tanev and it’s too much without any quality partners available to him.

 

[Bonham]

For some reason, trading a future 3rd round pick for a legitimate 1st pairing Dman in Schmidt often gets left out when discussing off season moves around here...

Check the trade thread, he more than got his due.

It was one step forward, three steps back like every other move he has made during his tenure.

Should we be applauding the work that has lead the team to this point?

 

[RobertKron]

For some reason, trading a future 3rd round pick for a legitimate 1st pairing Dman in Schmidt often gets left out when discussing off season moves around here...

If that had been a free agent signing, OP might have mentioned it in context of free agent signings?

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

In isolation, it was a fantastic move. And you can look up the trade threads to see how many people applauded it.

In the context that we made this trade because we let a legit 1st pairing Dman walk for free to a division rival, and a top 6 winger as well that is lighting us up, and the knowledge that we could have kept a combination of Schmidt and Tanev/Toffoli with better foresight and better cap management. It's cold comfort. For every good move he does is weighed down by three other smaller bad moves that add up.

Similar to Gudbranson where Florida correctly pegged GMJB as someone who would pay premium for a declining asset and initiated the trade talks with him. I tend to think this was more a reaction on GMJB's part than any pre-ordained plan .

Also goes to show how important other areas are as a GM especially managing the cap. He has his two best players on ElCs, 3 next best players on good deals, made 2 good trades bringing in Miller and Schmidt and the team took a big step back this year.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Check the trade thread, he more than got his due.

It was one step forward, three steps back like every other move he has made during his tenure.

Should we be applauding the work that has lead the team to this point?

On top of that, how great a GM do you have to be to say 'yes' when a desperate Vegas GM calls you up with the deal of a lifetime? Anyone would have said yes to this.

Same thing with Nonis getting Luongo. Oooh, he said hello when Mike Keenan called with a brain dead obvious trade. Duh.

This is in contrast to something like Burke making the moves he did to get the Sedins - something that takes skill and vision and balls.

 

[xtra]

But the one constant is Travis Green and his 5 on 5 PK structure.

I think Hughes recognizes he has to do more without Tanev and it’s too much without any quality partners available to him.

True; Greens structure is probably the biggest issue for Hughes however by the end of the year there should be enough ice time to compare Hughes with myers/edler at least. If you want to hold the green factor constant.

 

[Bonham]

On top of that, how great a GM do you have to be to say 'yes' when a desperate Vegas GM calls you up with the deal of a lifetime? Anyone would have said yes to this.

Same thing with Nonis getting Luongo. Oooh, he said hello when Mike Keenan called with a brain dead obvious trade. Duh.

This is in contrast to something like Burke making the moves he did to get the Sedins - something that takes skill and vision and balls.

Exactly.

If Pietrangelo decided to sign back in St. Louis where would this team be right now?

It is obvious that guys like Tanev and Markstrom were extremely respected individuals on this team. I am sure it didn't go over well seeing them twist in the wind like that after years of loyal service. This has only been reaffirmed by the impacts they are having on their respective teams while the Canucks are spinning their wheels.

The negative body language seems pretty apparent to me at the moment.

 

[Hansen]

This might be an interesting thing to track.

how tanev does this year away from Hughes and how Hughes partners do with him as opposed to last year.

it could show us if Hughes is a liability that’s actually bringing down players defensively while putting up the nice counting stats.

At a glance its not pretty, but I'd call this cherry picking stats as Hughes has been on a negative tear lately and small sample size still this year lol

2019-20 Hughes v Tanev

2020-21 Hughes v Tanev

 

[sandwichbird2023]

It'd be so sick to finally get a management group that's pro-active. That's Benning's biggest flaw, really, is that he's slow and reactive. So many examples. He won't move on from players ahead of time because he's too slow and lazy to contact enough GMs and build enough groundwork to get the ball rolling. Even more so, he's never in on interesting targets like an Erik Cernak for instance. We have first-hand accounts from Tanev Toffoli and Stecher that Benning just didn't contact them. He'll show up and hastily adjust the draft order between days 1 and 2, he gets hyperfocused on tall players and grinders who were good 3 years ago.

What are the constants here? Benning doesn't actually do any of the work that he's supposed to do. He approaches this sports franchise like it's a day at a sports club, hanging out with his buddies and havin a good time watchin hockey. Does Benning ever, for instance, uh, conduct performance reviews? Self-reflect on the way that he approaches his job? Reading Gillis' presentation to the Pens makes me sick, he's basically all about eliminating groupthink and maximizing people's talents while staying on the cutting edge of the industry. Benning can't even spell half of those words I just wrote.

I don't know about that. I remember Benning being "pro-active" when he saw how "Bonino was too slow for the playoff", so he ship him out of town for a "faster and gritty Sutter." Then watch as Bonino played a key role for the Pens' cup wins and Sutter, well, did what a foundational player does, I guess?
Or how about he went out and get a "tough and physical" defenseman to bolster our weak backend. Traded a recent 1st round pick and a 2nd, signed him to a pretty hefty extension before he officially becomes a free agent too, just to watch him play some of the worst defense I've seen.

I will say this until the day Benning leave town, that the "best Benning" is the "least active Benning." Just do nothing for 363 days of the year and show up to the 2 days at the draft, and just sit there and nod to whatever Brackett said for those 2 days, that's all I want JB to do.

 

[canucksfan]

Tanev's and Toffoli's comments have turned a lot of people against Benning that normally have supported him. Unless the Nucks make the playoffs I would be stunned if he isn't gone at some point this season.

I still can't believe it has taken years to see how incompetent he is.

 

[I am toxic]

In reference to team building the distinction of age obviously is more important than the subjective distinction of who is a prospect and who isn’t. By invoking Markstrom you’re opening up a comparison between players of his age and younger on the two teams, which you’re avoiding actually addressing because it’s inimitable to your argument. And for the millionth time, I’m not defending Benning and agree completely with your general view that’s he’s done a poor job of team building. I’m asking you to argue that point in a way that’s logical and coherent.

Bandy, I do not think he's done a poor job of team building. What kind of logical fallacy is it to make up stuff about other's postions?

The evidence shows that Benning has done an atrocious job of teambuilding. Along with an atrocious job of most all the other aspects of being a GM. And that he is atrocious at scouting.

The distinction between a 24 year old and a 24 year, 3 month, 21 day year old Markstrom is meaningless, and even more meaningless because 24 years old is an arbitrary line to draw for prospects. Mine is 24 years, 3 months and 22 days. I include all Canuck players in that age range for our prospects, and it is still just Podz.

But thank you for once again defending Benning by nitpicking on a meaningless point, demonstrating you don't have a leg to stand on even there, and balancing out a discussion of the horrid management of this team with deflections, false statements about my position, and claims about logic and coherence that don't stand up to scrutiny. I admire your stamina.

 

[ghostingtaro]

I wonder what happens to Edler after this year, currently 34 right now, I wouldnt mind him coming back for 2 more years and then retire as a canuck

 

[I am toxic]

Yes maybe MS can jump in here because i hate Vegas and don't watch them that much for my own reasons (FU Bettman).

Schmidt is either adjusting or needs his PEDs. I was excited when we got him, he was an impact player from what i saw.

Part of the issue may be how Baumer is asking him to play. Seemed like in Vegas he could bomb up ice more than here and actually be supported. Here he's having to be a calming steady guy and when he does he's not sure anyone is even gonna bother to cover for him.
It's been odd and mildly disappointing so far.

Schmidt played in a system in Vegas.

Particularly as a D, when your partner is suspect and you lack a proper system, you are faced with untenable choices - do your job properly and watch the other team score on your partner's mistakes, or try to do both your job and cover for your partner's mistakes.

That is what Schmidt is facing right now, along with an absolutely bs schedule from the NHL.

 

[xtra]

At a glance its not pretty, but I'd call this cherry picking stats as Hughes has been on a negative tear lately and small sample size still this year lol

2019-20 Hughes v Tanev

2020-21 Hughes v Tanev

I was actually speaking to how his partners do with and without him defensively. Without looking at stats we know he produces points so he raises his partners offensive numbers but what about just their defensive numbers. Hence why I was wondering what those look like.

and to go further and see if he’s taken a step back look at what his numbers with edler and myers look like to hold the Travis green value constant over the last 2 years.


I just don’t know where to look for such data

 

[valkynax]

For some reason, trading a future 3rd round pick for a legitimate 1st pairing Dman in Schmidt often gets left out when discussing off season moves around here...

Are you willfully ignoring how ecstatic people were when the trade was done?

I myself said this offseason has been OK, in itself, we were severely limited but Jim did what he could. But we are only so severely limited BECAUSE of Benning's past actions, all of which had caught up with this team and had costed us dearly.

Nate Schmidt left out of the discussion? Are you f***ING kidding me?

 

[I am toxic]

On top of that, how great a GM do you have to be to say 'yes' when a desperate Vegas GM calls you up with the deal of a lifetime? Anyone would have said yes to this.

Same thing with Nonis getting Luongo. Oooh, he said hello when Mike Keenan called with a brain dead obvious trade. Duh.

This is in contrast to something like Burke making the moves he did to get the Sedins - something that takes skill and vision and balls.

To Benning's credit, if Mittens was our GM, he (she? @MS ) may have been napping and missed the call.

 

[F A N]

Are you willfully ignoring how ecstatic people were when the trade was done?

I myself said this offseason has been OK, in itself, we were severely limited but Jim did what he could. But we are only so severely limited BECAUSE of Benning's past actions, all of which had caught up with this team and had costed us dearly.

Nate Schmidt left out of the discussion? Are you f***ING kidding me?

Are you wilfully ignoring the post I was responding to? You know the whole concept of "Quoting" a post is you're responding to the comment that is being quoted.

So please tell me why my post was wilfully ignoring how ecstatic people where when the trade was done when I was simply responding to this post:

last offseason should’ve been a great period of adding quality for cheap and less term than ever. The Canucks were only able to sign a sub .900 goalie.