The kinship of looking back

[EbonyRaptor]

As a Hawks fan I have felt a kinship with Kings fans after our teams alternated winning the Cup 2012-2015, probably for a number of reasons - I've liked Sutter since he played with the Hawks way back when, I like the way the Kings play tough but not dirty, Kings fans for the most part are good fans who I enjoy sharing blog posts with - not a bunch of chest thumpers, just to name a few.

But maybe the biggest reason I feel this kinship is that both fan bases know the exhilaration of being on top of the mountain more than once and hence have a more realistic understanding that it can't last forever and quite possibly our team is already past the point of achieving the ultimate prize again with this group of players. We shared the spotlight and now we share the bitter sweetness of favoring the view looking back more than looking forward. Time waits for no man, or hockey team, and the hard salary cap accelerates the trip down from the mountain top.

But we both still have good core players with the hope that "if only" some of the younger players can exceed realistic expectations ... maybe ... But, more often than not pinning hopes on unrealistic expectations doesn't end as well as we hoped it would.

For my Hawks, we lost 2 core players in Hjalmarsson and Hossa and a 3rd if you consider Panarin a core player. Maybe Saad and Murphy can adequately replace Panarin and Hjalmarsson but the realistic expectation is at best it is a wash - not an improvement for a team that needs improvement after being unceremoniously booted from the first round in 4 straight games. And Hossa ... the discussion has been focused on whether or not the Hawks are "catching a break" or even "bending the rules" with the intention of putting Hossa on LTIR for the 2017/18 season and using the LTIR cap relief for improve the team. Are you kidding me? Losing Hossa on the ice is a big deal - a major hit to the team's chances to compete. He's not the same player he was 5 years ago but he was still a very effective player and the Hawks have no one that can replace his on the ice overall play.

The Hawks have only 3 players who would be considered experienced NHL caliber d-men (Keith, Seabrook and Murphy) and only 1 centerman capable of winning face offs at a better then 50% clip (Toews). Say whatever else you want to say about the Hawks chances heading into 2017/18 but those two facts say a lot, and it isn't what this Hawks fan is happy to hear.

What say ye, Kings fans. What are your expectations heading into 2017/18 - both realistic and wishful. Who are the prospects and young players you hope can exceed the realistic expectations?

And finally, the day we all know will eventually come - the day the Cup winning team(s) is in the past and a rebuild must commence - are we fooling ourselves to think it isn't already here?

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[johnjm22]

Maybe I'm delusional or just having problems letting go of the past, but I'm not giving up on the Kings or Hawks just yet. I think they both still have good teams. If both of them underwhelm again this season then I'll change my mind.

The Kings have a nice little of group of young defensemen that are trying to establish themselves as NHL players (Gravel/Fantenburg/Folin/LaDue/MaCdermid). I think 2 or 3 or them will turn out to be good ones. I also think Forbort will continue to improve and I expect a bounce back year from Muzzin. So with that being said I'm pretty happy with our defensemen.

I also think Toffoli/Kopitar/Gaborik/Cammy/Brown will probably be better this year if they're relatively healthy. I guess I'm an optimist, but I think we'll be a playoff team. Teams often get a boost after making a coaching change.

I can't say too much about the Hawks situation. They've been good for so long that it's hard for me to even imagine them as anything less than a contender. As an outsider looking in the defense sticks out as the biggest concern. I think the Hawks fate depends on whether or not they have young players coming up in the system that can fill rosters spots and contribute. I don't know enough about your prospect pool to have an opinion on that. I'd be curious to know what organizational changes will take place of the Hawks have a bad season.

I'm of the opinion that no team in the West is all that great, so whoever gets hot at the right time will probably win the conference again.

Thanks for the post. It gets pretty boring around here during the Summer.

 

[damacles1156]

Kings and Hawks have similar problems.

Too many years of picking at the back end of Draft rounds(or trading picks), has left both teams barren of blue chip prospects.

Lack of Center depth behind Toews/Kopitar(Carter).

Defense has question marks for both teams.

It's the progression of things, at some point the (Core) was going to get older.

At some point every single NHL team has to pay the piper for players having success.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I think the Hawks and Kings from 2012-2015 were the two best teams of the lockout era by a significant margin. The WCF in 2014 was one of the best series of hockey I've seen in 30+ years of watching the sport.

Unfortunately, I think the glory days are definitively over for both teams. Perhaps one or the other puts together an inspiring run during the next two or three years, but that will be the extent of it.

 

[KingsFan7824]

What say ye, Kings fans. What are your expectations heading into 2017/18 - both realistic and wishful. Who are the prospects and young players you hope can exceed the realistic expectations?

Realistic is who knows. It's boring, and not really an expectation, but nobody knows. I don't think anyone saw 2 Cups in 3 years in July of 2011, with going up 3-0 in every series on the way to one, and winning three Game 7 road games, with a 0-3 comeback included, on the way to the other. I also don't think anyone saw 1 playoff win in the last 3 years back in July of 2014. Predicting either of those scenarios before they happened would not have been realistic. It would've been sort of insane to think them, let alone say them. Yet they turned out to be real.

Wishful is, of course, 5 or 6 guys have big bounce back seasons, the young guys play well, and they go into the playoffs with everyone on the same page.

And finally, the day we all know will eventually come - the day the Cup winning team(s) is in the past and a rebuild must commence - are we fooling ourselves to think it isn't already here?

Few teams voluntarily rebuild, no matter how average they are. It's usually forced upon them, either through players retiring, leaving as free agents, or asking to be traded. The same way few teams trade productive players a year too early rather than hold onto them and watch them lose value, and/or sign them to giant contracts.

Keith is now 34. The Hawks, most likely, won't find their next #1 franchise defenseman for a decade+ easily or quickly. If they do, then they've lucked out, and just enjoy it. If Doughty leaves as a free agent, the Kings, most likely, aren't going to find their next #1 franchise defenseman for a decade+ easily or quickly. If they do, then they've lucked out, and just enjoy it. That's why teams aren't in a rush to rebuild every few years. There's no guarantee that it works, or that you eventually get players just as good.

The Canadiens haven't been the same since the late 70's. The Islanders and Oilers haven't been the same since the 80's. The Penguins lucked out and got two of the top whatever players in the game again, so good for them. The Wings, Devils, Avs, and Stars aren't what they used to be 15 years ago. The Hawks and Kings are more likely than not in that group too. You had a run, a really good one, but then it stops, and you're unlikely to get back there for a decade, or 20 years, or 30 years, or 40 years, basically no matter what you do. It's tough to get the right players, at the right time, at the same time, and all playing well at the same time.

 

[EbonyRaptor]

Realistic is who knows. It's boring, and not really an expectation, but nobody knows. I don't think anyone saw 2 Cups in 3 years in July of 2011, with going up 3-0 in every series on the way to one, and winning three Game 7 road games, with a 0-3 comeback included, on the way to the other. I also don't think anyone saw 1 playoff win in the last 3 years back in July of 2014. Predicting either of those scenarios before they happened would not have been realistic. It would've been sort of insane to think them, let alone say them. Yet they turned out to be real.

Wishful is, of course, 5 or 6 guys have big bounce back seasons, the young guys play well, and they go into the playoffs with everyone on the same page.



Few teams voluntarily rebuild, no matter how average they are. It's usually forced upon them, either through players retiring, leaving as free agents, or asking to be traded. The same way few teams trade productive players a year too early rather than hold onto them and watch them lose value, and/or sign them to giant contracts.

Keith is now 34. The Hawks, most likely, won't find their next #1 franchise defenseman for a decade+ easily or quickly. If they do, then they've lucked out, and just enjoy it. If Doughty leaves as a free agent, the Kings, most likely, aren't going to find their next #1 franchise defenseman for a decade+ easily or quickly. If they do, then they've lucked out, and just enjoy it. That's why teams aren't in a rush to rebuild every few years. There's no guarantee that it works, or that you eventually get players just as good.

The Canadiens haven't been the same since the late 70's. The Islanders and Oilers haven't been the same since the 80's. The Penguins lucked out and got two of the top whatever players in the game again, so good for them. The Wings, Devils, Avs, and Stars aren't what they used to be 15 years ago. The Hawks and Kings are more likely than not in that group too. You had a run, a really good one, but then it stops, and you're unlikely to get back there for a decade, or 20 years, or 30 years, or 40 years, basically no matter what you do. It's tough to get the right players, at the right time, at the same time, and all playing well at the same time.

Yep, well put.

It's kind of a catch-22 - damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario regarding a rebuild. The reality is that the odds are against hitting on all the things that need to be successfully hit on to rebuild another Cup winning team so you try to squeeze another year or two or three out of the current core group but by doing that you reduce the chances to have a successful rebuild because you don't trade the elite players at the right time to get maximum return.

But, at least we as Kings fans and Hawks fans have got to experience our nice runs whereas the fans of most other teams have not. So we have that "looking back" thing going for us.

 

[Steve Zissou]

Panarin is a big lose because of the on ice chemistry between him and Kane; it's not often two players just 'click' and know how to play the game at a high level when one knows where the other will be.

As Kings fans would admit, it would be nice to see Kopitar find chemistry like that with another forward. Kopitar has had everyone from Brown, Gaborik, Smyth, Simmonds, and even Dwight King on his wing.

Don't get me wrong, we've won the cup twice with Kopitar leading the charge, but it would be nice to see Kopitar go into his usual once or twice a season slump with another winger helping to lift up his play.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Going to be tough for the Hawks to top the period of success they had between 2010 and 2015, just as it'll be tough for the Kings to top their run from 2012 to 2014.

But I always go back to how the Penguins went back-to-back in Cup appearances in 2008 and 2009 and then nothing again until 2016 and they followed that up with a second Cup in a row, the first team to do that since Detroit did it in 1997 and 1998.

Then again, the Kings don't have a Crosby and Malkin down the middle...

It may also be Edmonton's turn or another team on the rise. Chicago and LA were considered to be in a similar position when they both won their first Cups with their current core groups, and that was after the Hawks reached the Conference Finals the year prior and the Kings were eliminated in the first round two years in a row by opponents that were expected to go far in Vancouver and San Jose.

It may take some time for them to get back on top, but I think so long as the top players perform like they're supposed to, they can still manage to make another deep run in the post season. This applies to both underachieving teams (LA even more so).

 

[KINGS17]

The Kings and the Hawks have similar problems in that both teams paid too much and for too long for past performance. Out of the three players with the big contracts, only Kane has performed to the level of his cap hit.

Expecting players who are approaching 30 years of age to return to their past form and play as they did when they were 25 - 27 years of age is not a good idea.

I don't think either of these two teams will win a cup again with $10M cap hit players on the roster who are no longer in their prime.

 

[johnjm22]

The Hawks still had the best record in the conference last year.

If they're on the downturn then the conference really is wide open. There's no great teams in the West and only a few bad teams.

I think they'll be a few surprise teams in the conference that miss the playoffs. The Sharks come to mind.

I hate to say it, but I think the Ducks have the strongest team overall.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The Hawks still had the best record in the conference last year.

If they're on the downturn then the conference really is wide open. There's no great teams in the West and only a few bad teams.

I think they'll be a few surprise teams in the conference that miss the playoffs. The Sharks come to mind.

I hate to say it, but I think the Ducks have the strongest team overall.

Getzlaf, Perry and Kesler aren't getting any younger. I'd say from top to bottom, Nashville has the best overall depth in the West. Calgary could also be a force in the near future.

 

[johnjm22]

Getzlaf, Perry and Kesler aren't getting any younger. I'd say from top to bottom, Nashville has the best overall depth in the West. Calgary could also be a force in the near future.

Those players are getting older but they're still good. They also have a lot of quality younger players. Anaheim does a good job of drafting and developing. They usually make shrewd trades as well.

I'm not sold on Nashville. People have compared them to the Kings because they also were an 8th seed that made an SC run, but the Kings were an elite defensive team before the run. Nashville isn't elite at anything. If the Predators had a low shooting percentage it would indicate that their weak regular season performance was a fluke, but they didn't, in fact it was relatively high.

 

[Battle Hymns]

That was beautiful *hand clap*

 

[MxH0CKEY]

Those players are getting older but they're still good. They also have a lot of quality younger players. Anaheim does a good job of drafting and developing. They usually make shrewd trades as well.

I'm not sold on Nashville. People have compared them to the Kings because they also were an 8th seed that made an SC run, but the Kings were an elite defensive team before the run. Nashville isn't elite at anything. If the Predators had a low shooting percentage it would indicate that their weak regular season performance was a fluke, but they didn't, in fact it was relatively high.

Top 4 of Josi, Subban, Ellis, Ekholm isn't elite? Rinne is getting older but I'd consider him elite as well(minus the away games during the SCF)

Their offense on the other hand definitely needs a little work. Prospects like Fiala and Kamenev can help that issue.

 

[MxH0CKEY]

Getzlaf, Perry and Kesler aren't getting any younger. I'd say from top to bottom, Nashville has the best overall depth in the West. Calgary could also be a force in the near future.

I would even rank Winnipeg above both in terms of depth. Little more experience for the young team and I think they can contend in 2-3 years.

 

[johnjm22]

Top 4 of Josi, Subban, Ellis, Ekholm isn't elite? Rinne is getting older but I'd consider him elite as well(minus the away games during the SCF)

Their offense on the other hand definitely needs a little work. Prospects like Fiala and Kamenev can help that issue.

As a team they aren't elite at anything. They're average defensively. Average offensively. Pekka in his mid 30's is closer to average than elite.

They'll likely struggle to make the playoffs.

 

[lumbergh]

The big difference between the Kings and Blackhawks right now is that the Kings are a bubble team while the Blackhawks still dominate the regular season. No way the Hawks rebuild now; they're too good. The Kings are at a fork in the road.

My expectations are that the Hawks will cruise into the playoffs, competing for a top spot in a tough division. They'll be competitive in the playoffs, but by no means a dominant force at this point.

My expectations for the Kings are that they'll compete for a playoff spot. If they get help at the deadline and get in to the playoffs they'll be dangerous. If they stay relatively healthy they'll make it. If they have another injury riddled year, they'll be in the "black hole". If the Kings miss the playoffs again, it'll be time for a rebuild.

The Kings have no prospects that are jumping out right now. Paul Ladue may develop into a 2nd pairing D who puts up some points this year. Doesn't look good.

 

[EbonyRaptor]

The big difference between the Kings and Blackhawks right now is that the Kings are a bubble team while the Blackhawks still dominate the regular season. No way the Hawks rebuild now; they're too good. The Kings are at a fork in the road.

My expectations are that the Hawks will cruise into the playoffs, competing for a top spot in a tough division. They'll be competitive in the playoffs, but by no means a dominant force at this point.

My expectations for the Kings are that they'll compete for a playoff spot. If they get help at the deadline and get in to the playoffs they'll be dangerous. If they stay relatively healthy they'll make it. If they have another injury riddled year, they'll be in the "black hole". If the Kings miss the playoffs again, it'll be time for a rebuild.

The Kings have no prospects that are jumping out right now. Paul Ladue may develop into a 2nd pairing D who puts up some points this year. Doesn't look good.

That's another similarity between the teams - the Hawks don't have "can't miss" prospects either. Part and parcel of being a successful team is drafting at the end of the 1st round. The Hawks haven't had a top-10 pick since Kane in 2007. Hawk fans can point to a few of the current group of prospects and set their hopes high but the same can be said of every fan base and most of those high hopes will amount to nothing or very little.

 

[KINGS17]

The Hawks still had the best record in the conference last year.

If they're on the downturn then the conference really is wide open. There's no great teams in the West and only a few bad teams.

I think they'll be a few surprise teams in the conference that miss the playoffs. The Sharks come to mind.

I hate to say it, but I think the Ducks have the strongest team overall.

The Blackhawks lost 4 in a row when it mattered most. They are no longer a dominant playoff team.

Can the Kings and Blackhawks make the playoffs next season? It's possible, but it's not a lock like it was from 2012 - 2014. The Pacific Division has three teams better than the Kings in Edmonton, Anaheim, and San Jose. Calgary is going to get better as well.

That's another similarity between the teams - the Hawks don't have "can't miss" prospects either. Part and parcel of being a successful team is drafting at the end of the 1st round. The Hawks haven't had a top-10 pick since Kane in 2007. Hawk fans can point to a few of the current group of prospects and set their hopes high but the same can be said of every fan base and most of those high hopes will amount to nothing or very little.

You're right on the money here. We have been overrating our prospects for several years now, because they happen to be the Kings best prospects, not because they are top NHL prospects.

 

[Stimpythecat]

Thank you for posting this thread. It was a good run for us both.

I think the kings will be better than people expect. A healthy quick and just a league average backup is a big improvement over having to overplay a 3rd string goalie with no sub.

Kings had obvious trouble scoring but that is with having an injured kopitar who missed/played injured for a few months and toffoli out a month and playing gimpy. Despite that the kings still potted 199 gf. The cup winning teams got 188 and 198.

I think the key for us will be Quick and our defense.

the blackhawks should at least get the #3 division spot. then in the playoffs, their experience should help. they'd be one of the teams I don't think anyone wants to face.

I completely agree about the prospect comparisons. We over rated ours a fair bit.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Thank you for posting this thread. It was a good run for us both.

I think the kings will be better than people expect. A healthy quick and just a league average backup is a big improvement over having to overplay a 3rd string goalie with no sub.

Kings had obvious trouble scoring but that is with having an injured kopitar who missed/played injured for a few months and toffoli out a month and playing gimpy. Despite that the kings still potted 199 gf. The cup winning teams got 188 and 198.

I think the key for us will be Quick and our defense.

the blackhawks should at least get the #3 division spot. then in the playoffs, their experience should help. they'd be one of the teams I don't think anyone wants to face.

I completely agree about the prospect comparisons. We over rated ours a fair bit.

Like the Kings, the Hawks don't have quite the same level of experience anymore. Unless you count our old friend Rozsival, after Keith and Seabrook, they have 9 games of playoff experience on the rest of their defense.

 

[johnjm22]

The Blackhawks lost 4 in a row when it mattered most. They are no longer a dominant playoff team.

Can the Kings and Blackhawks make the playoffs next season? It's possible, but it's not a lock like it was from 2012 - 2014. The Pacific Division has three teams better than the Kings in Edmonton, Anaheim, and San Jose. Calgary is going to get better as well.

I think San Jose is very mediocre.

There's only a few bad teams in the conference: Colorado, Vegas, Vancouver, and maybe Phoenix. Aside from that I think pretty much any team can make the playoffs.

 

[KINGS17]

I think San Jose is very mediocre.

There's only a few bad teams in the conference: Colorado, Vegas, Vancouver, and maybe Phoenix. Aside from that I think pretty much any team can make the playoffs.

I agree.

 

[Rorschach]

Kings and Hawks can both claim great teams for each of their wins. Pittsburgh can't. Their win this year was pretty weak considering the competition.

 

[Legionnaire]

As a Hawks fan I have felt a kinship with Kings fans after our teams alternated winning the Cup 2012-2015, probably for a number of reasons - I've liked Sutter since he played with the Hawks way back when, I like the way the Kings play tough but not dirty, Kings fans for the most part are good fans who I enjoy sharing blog posts with - not a bunch of chest thumpers, just to name a few.

But maybe the biggest reason I feel this kinship is that both fan bases know the exhilaration of being on top of the mountain more than once and hence have a more realistic understanding that it can't last forever and quite possibly our team is already past the point of achieving the ultimate prize again with this group of players. We shared the spotlight and now we share the bitter sweetness of favoring the view looking back more than looking forward. Time waits for no man, or hockey team, and the hard salary cap accelerates the trip down from the mountain top.

But we both still have good core players with the hope that "if only" some of the younger players can exceed realistic expectations ... maybe ... But, more often than not pinning hopes on unrealistic expectations doesn't end as well as we hoped it would.

For my Hawks, we lost 2 core players in Hjalmarsson and Hossa and a 3rd if you consider Panarin a core player. Maybe Saad and Murphy can adequately replace Panarin and Hjalmarsson but the realistic expectation is at best it is a wash - not an improvement for a team that needs improvement after being unceremoniously booted from the first round in 4 straight games. And Hossa ... the discussion has been focused on whether or not the Hawks are "catching a break" or even "bending the rules" with the intention of putting Hossa on LTIR for the 2017/18 season and using the LTIR cap relief for improve the team. Are you kidding me? Losing Hossa on the ice is a big deal - a major hit to the team's chances to compete. He's not the same player he was 5 years ago but he was still a very effective player and the Hawks have no one that can replace his on the ice overall play.

The Hawks have only 3 players who would be considered experienced NHL caliber d-men (Keith, Seabrook and Murphy) and only 1 centerman capable of winning face offs at a better then 50% clip (Toews). Say whatever else you want to say about the Hawks chances heading into 2017/18 but those two facts say a lot, and it isn't what this Hawks fan is happy to hear.

What say ye, Kings fans. What are your expectations heading into 2017/18 - both realistic and wishful. Who are the prospects and young players you hope can exceed the realistic expectations?

And finally, the day we all know will eventually come - the day the Cup winning team(s) is in the past and a rebuild must commence - are we fooling ourselves to think it isn't already here?

I agree. I've always though it was really cool that Hawks and Kings fans kept it civil and had a mutual respect. Both teams went 40 years without winning a Cup and both teams know what it was like to suffer through that losing. I think that was part of the bond too.