The Jarmo Thread

[stevo61]

More likely a good young player and a 1st. Add another 1st from Bob plus you save the picks from Duchene and Dzingel trades that's significant draft capital.

Lots of late round stuff that unlikely amounts to anything. This way was more drawn out but should have a higher payoff getting Jiricek/Mateychuk-Johnson/Sillinger-Fantilli in consecutive drafts

 

[Marioesque]

They'd be 9th in the league. I believe it was higher but still, this team is awful, clearly the contracts being signed aren't very good.

Why would they be in top 9 in standings when spending in bottom 6? Now I don't understand your criteria, thought it was relevant to cap.

When you say contracts being signed aren't very good, what exactly do you mean by that? Right now about $20 million of contracts are on long time IR so the ice going roster is under $60 mil. They're still winning quite a few games against opponents most don't expect them to win against.

I don't find it realistic to expect them to make a run this season, so it's not the end of the world if we have injuries to key players hampering the top performance the team could potentially already have. That's what all this depth is for.

And because they are so young, they'll take big steps forward. Then you add the injured when they come back and hopefully make a reasonably healthy run at it in the next few seasons. This season is chemistry building and developing the talent with no expectation of playoff success. They're not spending to cap right now because it's not necessary at this point.

 

[majormajor]

Lots of late round stuff that unlikely amounts to anything. This way was more drawn out but should have a higher payoff getting Jiricek/Mateychuk-Johnson/Sillinger-Fantilli in consecutive drafts

You could spin the argument around and say that the numerous 2nds and late picks we gave up could have turned into high quality players - imagine the current rebuild but with an even better quantity of young talent. That Ottawa didn't get anything out of it, but Jarmo could have drafted much better than them. That would be praising Jarmo though, so the argument never goes there.

 

[Napoli]

Why would they be in top 9 in standings when spending in bottom 6? Now I don't understand your criteria, thought it was relevant to cap.

When you say contracts being signed aren't very good, what exactly do you mean by that? Right now about $20 million of contracts are on long time IR so the ice going roster is under $60 mil. They're still winning quite a few games against opponents most don't expect them to win against.

I don't find it realistic to expect them to make a run this season, so it's not the end of the world if we have injuries to key players hampering the top performance the team could potentially already have. That's what all this depth is for.

And because they are so young, they'll take big steps forward. Then you add the injured when they come back and hopefully make a reasonably healthy run at it in the next few seasons. This season is chemistry building and developing the talent with no expectation of playoff success. They're not spending to cap right now because it's not necessary at this point.

Sorry meant to say 13th in cap space. Regardless of the cap, the contracts are not good. Severson for 8 years, not a great all around dman, not a great contact. Werenski at 9.7 million, he's a beast in the O zone but defensively isn't good enough. Gudbranson another bad defenseman, yes he fills a role but he's still not good.

The replacements in Mateychuk and Jiricek aren't necessarily great defensively although Jiricek is the only + defensively via hockeystatcards on the roster. Bean and Peeke are not good dmen either. Peeke might be one of the worst in the league and Jarmo gave him 2.5 million. That's not a lot but when you consider how truly bad Peeke is, you realize Jarmo's talent evaluation at the pro level is not good.

Essentially we have a full d core of guys who have no future/uncertain future along with overpaid veterans who can't defend. That's a recipe for disaster and really why this team is so fragile defensively.

Werenski is good offensively, not good enough to cover the load defensively. I'm also starting to realize Provorov is very similar minus the good at offense thing.

Severson seems to just be bad? I'm not sure, the book is still out on him but honestly it's not looking great.

Then there is a glut of players that are either not established/have no future in Peeke, Blanks, Boqvist, Bean.

I'd say they are competitive but not anywhere close to being good enough to consistently win games. Almost every one of our dmen are analytically bad. Part of that is their young/unestablished but a lot of it is that they're just not very good. It's important to clarify here, they're analytically bad defensively. We have a couple of guys who are good offensively.

If they replaced some of these younger guys with solid shutdown players, suddenly the puck moving dmen can play their role and be effective. It doesn't appear Jarmo has figured that out yet/wants to go in that direction. He appears to want to go all puck moving D and the shutdown guys he does have, Peeke and Gud, are not effective enough.

 

[majormajor]

I'm also not a fan of how the D is constructed so leaving that part of the argument aside:

I'd say they are competitive but not anywhere close to being good enough to consistently win games.

It's hard to tell. Like if they were just regular bad defensively in the 3rd period, instead of world record bad, they'd be like a .500 team right now. So imagine giving up a half goal extra in the third instead of a whole goal extra.

Can experience and tactical adjustments bring us up to "regular bad" at 3rd period defense? I think so.

Almost every one of our dmen are analytically bad. Part of that is their young/unestablished but a lot of it is that they're just not very good. It's important to clarify here, they're analytically bad defensively. We have a couple of guys who are good offensively.

We've also seen over the years how analytic profiles of D men on bad teams always suck, and those same players suddenly have good profiles on better teams. If we figure out how to not spend the entire 3rd period in our zone (last night's game was a step forward in that regard) then the profiles for the individual players will get better. In the meantime don't take those numbers too seriously.

 

[Marioesque]

It's almost like some people expect them to build a really defensive D core, and when the team seems to have a totally different idea (good puck handling offensive defensemen), those fans are left wanting.

I think they are doing it on purpose and having some sort of idea how the game is won in the future. If they were loading up on defensive defensemen then they'd be hauling in more Gudbransons. I'm not interested in that. I think he's here for the transition period, because they are a young team. His cap hit will be out of our books by the time we start being seriously competitive. Right now he is there as a 3rd pairing D and an enforcer. Again, not what I would spend money on but a lot of people here would be complaining if there wasn't players like that in the roster.

Defense was main issue last season, so Jarmo went and tried to address it in off season. He brought in two 2way defensemen and good thing he did because Werenski is out again.

Boqvist before injury was playing great so I don't understand why he wouldn't have a future. Even if he doesn't, he's worth his contract. Peeke, Bean, Blanks will probably be gone but it's been useful to have the depth while waiting for this youth to ripen. I don't really care what Gudy or Peeke costs today, as long as that cap space is available when we have a chance for a realistic cup run.

 

[Napoli]

I'm also not a fan of how the D is constructed so leaving that part of the argument aside:



It's hard to tell. Like if they were just regular bad defensively in the 3rd period, instead of world record bad, they'd be like a .500 team right now. So imagine giving up a half goal extra in the third instead of a whole goal extra.

Can experience and tactical adjustments bring us up to "regular bad" at 3rd period defense? I think so.

Probably, but we have to judge the team in front of us. I think debating Vincent decisions is a whole different topic (not to say he's without blame). This team's defense has been bad since Jones left and even then it felt like Bob kept us in most games.

We've also seen over the years how analytic profiles of D men on bad teams always suck, and those same players suddenly have good profiles on better teams. If we figure out how to not spend the entire 3rd period in our zone (last night's game was a step forward in that regard) then the profiles for the individual players will get better. In the meantime don't take those numbers too seriously.

We have to judge what's in front of us. If we look at the two teams in front of us in the standings and two below, we only have one defenseman who is a net positive where as those other teams all have multiple defenders. Bad teams have bad analytical players but what does it mean when the teams around you have less bad analytical players? There's something to take from that.

 

[majormajor]

Probably, but we have to judge the team in front of us. I think debating Vincent decisions is a whole different topic (not to say he's without blame). This team's defense has been bad since Jones left and even then it felt like Bob kept us in most games.

We have to judge what's in front of us. If we look at the two teams in front of us in the standings and two below, we only have one defenseman who is a net positive where as those other teams all have multiple defenders. Bad teams have bad analytical players but what does it mean when the teams around you have less bad analytical players? There's something to take from that.

View attachment 791710

View attachment 791712

View attachment 791713

View attachment 791714

View attachment 791715

I think this particular source does not paint an accurate picture of these players.

For instance - I'm watching Sens and Oilers all the time, so I see a lot of Jake Sanderson and a lot of Evan Bouchard. Bouchard ought to be one of the worst defenders on these lists (at defense). He has a limited grasp on how to play the position in his own end, it's frankly wild. Sanderson is much more polished, faster, smarter without the puck. Any analytic tool worth looking at will get those two in the right order, it's a basic test that this thing is failing.

And as I've said before, Werenski isn't that bad defensively, this thing appears to be measuring who is playing for the Blue Jackets and just adding up the minutes. It's wildly off.

There's some good analytics out there (I post plenty myself) but also a lot of junk.

 

[Napoli]

I think this particular source does not paint an accurate picture of these players.

For instance - I'm watching Sens and Oilers all the time, so I see a lot of Jake Sanderson and a lot of Evan Bouchard. Bouchard ought to be one of the worst defenders on these lists (at defense). He has a limited grasp on how to play the position in his own end, it's frankly wild. Sanderson is much more polished, faster, smarter without the puck. Any analytic tool worth looking at will get those two in the right order, it's a basic test that this thing is failing.

And as I've said before, Werenski isn't that bad defensively, this thing appears to be measuring who is playing for the Blue Jackets and just adding up the minutes. It's wildly off.

There's some good analytics out there (I post plenty myself) but also a lot of junk.

Well it doesn't say Bouchard is great defensively, he's just a beast offensively and bang average defensively. Do you watch every Sens game? Maybe Sanderson is much better defensively but not so much this year, they are having a rough year. Werenski's rating also makes sense to me, he's frankly terrible in his own zone so maybe your perception and analysis is just off?

 

[majormajor]

Well it doesn't say Bouchard is great defensively, he's just a beast offensively and bang average defensively.

He's not bang average defensively. That's wildly off the mark. Don't believe every number you see. It seems to me from your arguments that you've been far too credulous with that site. It's not reality.

 

[Napoli]

He's not bang average defensively. That's wildly off the mark. Don't believe every number you see. It seems to me from your arguments that you've been far too credulous with that site. It's not reality.

Feel free to disprove with numbers you trust.

Here's another source that's saying the opposite.

 

[Marioesque]

He's not bang average defensively. That's wildly off the mark. Don't believe every number you see. It seems to me from your arguments that you've been far too credulous with that site. It's not reality.

Yeah Bouchard is a wreck defensively. Imagine if Boqvist was in that spot for EDM, how different his profile would be to fans? He'd probably do better defensively and maybe even offensively.

 

[majormajor]

Yeah Bouchard is a wreck defensively. Imagine if Boqvist was in that spot for EDM, how different his profile would be to fans? He'd probably do better defensively and maybe even offensively.

It would be mighty hard to do better than Bouchard offensively. His shot is something unique.

But I agree that Boqvist would have better defensive numbers in that position. Bouchard is about where Boqvist was defensively two years ago, like barely trying.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

I rarely post these days but this whole revisionist history shit is so annoying. Cannot even fathom how people think selling Bob and Panarin in 2018 was a good move. Those same people would be bitching and pointing to no playoff series wins if we ended up doing that.

Oh, and by the way, Bob had a full NMC and had no interest in waiving it (he even said it.) so he was untradeable. So, you would have just been dealing panarin. Maybe we could have got another Liam Foudy so people could be happy.

 

[NotWendell]

Nothing in 2018 led to our current demise. Panarin was very professional in how he handled the trade from Chicago, played out his contract and still has not said a disparaging word about Columbus.

I posit 4 more likely reasons:
1. It was replacing a Vezina winner with two sub-par goalies.
2. It was Torts running his course and replacing him with Larsen, Babcock and Vincent.
3. It was replacing Calvert, Dubinsky, Foligno and Anderson with guys with far less grit and snarl.
4. It was PLD forcing his way out and Bob wanting out a year earlier and the reason why may be why there is little observable loyalty to this organization.

 

[JacketsDavid]

Nothing in 2018 led to our current demise. Panarin was very professional in how he handled the trade from Chicago, played out his contract and still has not said a disparaging word about Columbus.

I posit 4 more likely reasons:
1. It was replacing a Vezina winner with two sub-par goalies.
2. It was Torts running his course and replacing him with Larsen, Babcock and Vincent.
3. It was replacing Calvert, Dubinsky, Foligno and Anderson with guys with far less grit and snarl.
4. It was PLD forcing his way out and Bob wanting out a year earlier and the reason why may be why there is little observable loyalty to this organization.

I'm on board with this. In reference to 2019:

We did go a bit overboard at the deadline in buying for pieces that likely wasn't needed (insurance) or a good fit. Dubinsky filled a need was expensive but I can buy that. Dzingel was not a good fit with Torts. mcQuaid and Kincaid were insurance at best.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Jarmo traded a 1st, a 2nd, and a 3rd to "upgrade" the defense this past off-season. Apparently the impetus for doing so was to get the almighty Mike Babcock to accept the head coaching gig here, which....oops.

Not sure in what other organization this clown show would be allowed to continue.

 

[koteka]

Here are the AHL scoring leaders.

All 3 of these guys were names discussed in draft threads on the CBJ HF boards so they should be familiar names. Clarke was a highly regarded defensive prospect with concerns about his skating. Clarke was drafted a year before Jiricek. It is interesting that other teams are letting these guys cook in the AHL while we bring up our prospects to the NHL.

 

[majormajor]

Here are the AHL scoring leaders.

View attachment 793283

All 3 of these guys were names discussed in draft threads on the CBJ HF boards so they should be familiar names. Clarke was a highly regarded defensive prospect with concerns about his skating. Clarke was drafted a year before Jiricek. It is interesting that other teams are letting these guys cook in the AHL while we bring up our prospects to the NHL.

Clarke has his warts, what is more telling is that you have the well-rounded Simon Edvinsson from the 2021 draft, also more NHL ready than Jiricek, also still in the AHL. Mo Seider also spent two full seasons post draft before coming up to the NHL. What the f*** are we doing?

 

[stevo61]

Clarke has his warts, what is more telling is that you have the well-rounded Simon Edvinsson from the 2021 draft, also more NHL ready than Jiricek, also still in the AHL. Mo Seider also spent two full seasons post draft before coming up to the NHL. What the f*** are we doing?

Jarmo got word to stop grinding down RFA's and now hes gone the other way and giving them the world early? Its a very strange approach whatever the reason

 

[EspenK]

Assuming that there are no plans to re-sign Provorov after next season does it make sense to trade him this year? I would if the deal was to a contender who had a top 10ish pick they obtained is a previous trade.

 

[CBJx614]

Assuming that there are no plans to re-sign Provorov after next season does it make sense to trade him this year? I would if the deal was to a contender who had a top 10ish pick they obtained is a previous trade.

If there's no plans to re-sign I think they wait for the offseason or next TDL. If the right deal comes along during the TDL sure but we should keep him as insurance until we know what we have on the ice next year.

Z has shown a history of being injury prone
Bean plays well enough in a bottom 4 role
Mateychuk is still just a kid and while he could be in the NHL next season, we should give him time in Cleveland first.

 

[BB88]

People love to hate on this management & they will never admit it but even after all the mistakes they’ve made they’ve set this team up to a future that will look like thr brightest they’ve ever had in few years time.
Which is why I’m nervous about the change that’s coming

Fantilli
Johnson
Marchenko
Voronkov
Brindley
Chinakhov
Dumais
Sillinger

That’s one helluva drafting resume for the last couple of years for forwards.

The best thing they could do is to just keep pace and wait for the kids to mature and become the leaders of this team. The players that can lead them far are already on the roster, they are just too young. While the current leaders aren’t good enough to lead but can be quality complimentary players.

Now change can mean major changes and have the wheels spinning like in Buffalo

& now I’ll get replied to as how everything is a major failure and they should have been flawless in everything like the other 31 teams are

 

[stevo61]

People love to hate on this management & they will never admit it but even after all the mistakes they’ve made they’ve set this team up to a future that will look like thr brightest they’ve ever had in few years time.
Which is why I’m nervous about the change that’s coming

Fantilli
Johnson
Marchenko
Voronkov
Brindley
Chinakhov
Dumais
Sillinger

That’s one helluva drafting resume for the last couple of years for forwards.

The best thing they could do is to just keep pace and wait for the kids to mature and become the leaders of this team. The players that can lead them far are already on the roster, they are just too young. While the current leaders aren’t good enough to lead but can be quality complimentary players.

Now change can mean major changes and have the wheels spinning like in Buffalo



& now I’ll get replied to as how everything is a major failure and they should have been flawless in everything like the other 31 teams are

Well luckily we were worse than management expected and we sucked in a year where a 1OA caliber prospect was sitting there at 3. Some people dont like his drafting as much as others but even if you ignore that its what hes done with the big club. Not valuing grit but saying buzz words like "play the right way" was always mind boggling to me.

Also going from grinding RFAs into the ground through negotiations to telling them to get a place because they are staying is equally ridiculous. Nothing should be guarenteed but a lot appears to be around here.

Always being one of the youngest teams isnt really a major plus when many dudes should be developing elsewhere and we should have some more vets in place creating more stability within the team

But yeah, the premptive calling out anyone who disagree's doesnt really do much. People are free to disagree, its pretty warrented at this point

 

[joybang]

Wasn’t the Jiricek apartment thing a one day paper move…