The Jarmo Thread

[Viqsi]

homie's getting a free trip to alex wennberg island this summer

Then there was that time when we were subsequently so desperate for defensive centers to the point that Kuraly was playing heavy minutes as our #3 and we were looking at acquiring guys who made more money and yet were less effective...

I frankly think folks are still far too quick to get rid of guys when they don't meet expectations regardless of whether or not they'd still be useful at that lower bar.

 

[Indy18]

His agent probably had a few pieces of advice for him. They might have been:

1) Don't look a gift horse in the mouth

2) Take the money and run

3) Praise Jarmo

He knew exactly what he was getting into. A contract that was too rich in AAV and far too long in term for a player of his abilities. He would have been a fool to turn it down.

The issue was never the AAV. Most experts predicted he was going to go 6-7mil.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Then there was that time when we were subsequently so desperate for defensive centers to the point that Kuraly was playing heavy minutes as our #3 and we were looking at acquiring guys who made more money and yet were less effective...

I frankly think folks are still far too quick to get rid of guys when they don't meet expectations regardless of whether or not they'd still be useful at that lower bar.

i think wennberg sorely needed a change of scenery. he's never rebounded to his 16-17 form but i'd still take him back on this roster in a heartbeat. he'd be a perfect complimentary center.

as for peeke, well… he has good traits but i don't think he's ever been a particularly effective player for us. gudbranson is better in the same role, jiricek has the same good traits but is elite in areas where peeke is subpar, and severson is more effective and provides more lineup flexibility.

i don't really see a scenario where they lose peeke and end up looking for a similar player shortly thereafter. if they do, i'd imagine they'd be looking for a lefty anyway. at this point i'd have no issue with them just putting him on waivers to see if it can save them the hassle of buying him out.

The issue was never the AAV. Most experts predicted he was going to go 6-7mil.

right, severson was always gonna get $6m+ and was always gonna get 6-7 years. jackets got him with the eighth year.

the early returns haven't been great, but he's a legit top four guy and a very well-rounded one at that. when he comes back i think he'll eventually win the fans over. he's not the first good player to struggle on a new team.

 

[CBJx614]

Getting close to the halfway point in the season.

I stick to what I said in the off-season, if this team somehow puts some Ws together and can be close to competing for a WC spot I don't think anything too crazy(FO/Coaching) happens...

But if we're in contention for the lottery I think we clean house.

 

[BB88]

I guess this is the place for this opening of a post.

Whoever is the Gm moving forward is going to be in a dream situation for a Gm/team in a rebuild situation.
Just watching the standings this year are hiding a lot of positives the team has moving forward.

Drafting, what they’ve often been complained about actually looks pretty damm good.

The obvious top picks,
Fantilli
Johnson
Jiricek
Don’t have any issues with that trio (in relation to draft positions)

Later gems they have in the system
Mateychuk
Marchenko
Voronkov
Chinakhov
Dumais
Etc

There’s lot of u24 talent on the roster which isn’t yet showing on the score board.

I still say this team is a lot better than their record shows this year and they’ve lost way too many points due to 3rd period collapses, starting from the coaching decisions to getting into players heads and becoming mental.
They are at the bottom of the standings yet they rarely have been dominated in games, most often than not they are in on the games and have a late lead. The players that will carry them in the future are just too young to carry them consistently this season.


Zero +10M contracts on the roster, lot of unnecessary contracts running of the books, overall only few longterm contracts on the books

Now add what looks like a top5 pick and a chance at another franchise/elite tier prospect someone can quickly look like a genius.
Fantilli/Johnson/Marchenko/Voronkov/Gaudreu offense with another top pick is going to be fun to watch


The problem is do they have a clue who’s the best Gm for the team moving forward

 

[Marioesque]

I guess this is the place for this opening of a post.

Whoever is the Gm moving forward is going to be in a dream situation for a Gm/team in a rebuild situation.
Just watching the standings this year are hiding a lot of positives the team has moving forward.

Drafting, what they’ve often been complained about actually looks pretty damm good.

The obvious top picks,
Fantilli
Johnson
Jiricek
Don’t have any issues with that trio (in relation to draft positions)

Later gems they have in the system
Mateychuk
Marchenko
Voronkov
Chinakhov
Dumais
Etc

There’s lot of u24 talent on the roster which isn’t yet showing on the score board.

I still say this team is a lot better than their record shows this year and they’ve lost way too many points due to 3rd period collapses, starting from the coaching decisions to getting into players heads and becoming mental.
They are at the bottom of the standings yet they rarely have been dominated in games, most often than not they are in on the games and have a late lead. The players that will carry them in the future are just too young to carry them consistently this season.


Zero +10M contracts on the roster, lot of unnecessary contracts running of the books, overall only few longterm contracts on the books

Now add what looks like a top5 pick and a chance at another franchise/elite tier prospect someone can quickly look like a genius.
Fantilli/Johnson/Marchenko/Voronkov/Gaudreu offense with another top pick is going to be fun to watch


The problem is do they have a clue who’s the best Gm for the team moving forward

It's a really well built team, and that's why I don't get this constant "fire Jarmo" stuff.

Yeah, Babcock, but I don't to this date know if it was his idea. He still stood by it so it's a minus. It's not a big enough thing for me to forget about the drafting. The KHL pulls have turned out brilliant, no team just brings up a dominant line like that from a couple of drafts and have it show up that fast.

Failing to tank for Bedard from last place had me more mad than the Babcock ordeal, but the roster is very impressive and Jarmo is a big reason. He just needs to make sure the coaching matches the talent of the roster.

 

[BB88]

It's a really well built team, and that's why I don't get this constant "fire Jarmo" stuff.

Yeah, Babcock, but I don't to this date know if it was his idea. He still stood by it so it's a minus. It's not a big enough thing for me to forget about the drafting. The KHL pulls have turned out brilliant, no team just brings up a dominant line like that from a couple of drafts and have it show up that fast.

Failing to tank for Bedard from last place had me more mad than the Babcock ordeal, but the roster is very impressive and Jarmo is a big reason. He just needs to make sure the coaching matches the talent of the roster.

Can’t be mad about the last years draft at all, they ended up with the best prospect they’ve ever drafted and happens to be a C as well.

They are basically in a limbo right now. The vets aren’t good enough to carry the team and the players who are expected to carry them are just too young still.

Anyone who takes a closer look at the roster, prospect pool, draft capital, cap situation can see they are very close to taking this off the ground.

Before that I expect people to get fired. The turtle tactic with the 9 game losing streak will be their undoing.
Without their 3rd period collapses they’d be in ”playoff hunt” still and playing meaningfull games. & the mood here would be very different.

 

[squashmaple]

Two things can be true at once. Jarmo and JD can deserve to be fired for the egregious unforced error that was the Babcock debacle and its associated humiliation of a franchise that was already the league’s laughingstock AND we can agree their front office has an excellent scouting department that deserves more credit than they get for building a pool this good this fast.

Don’t forget these same guys had excellent drafting records with St. Louis, too. Jarmo was their director of amateur scouting from 2002 to 2010 and can boast late round home runs such as Lee Stempniak in the fifth round, Roman Polak in the sixth, Ryan Reaves in the fifth on top of obvious first rounders like Backes, Oshie, Tarasenko, Pietrangelo, and Perron (and goalies like Ben Bishop and Jake Allen). Honestly, we should talk MORE about those parallels here.

 

[JacketsDavid]

It's a really well built team, and that's why I don't get this constant "fire Jarmo" stuff.

Yeah, Babcock, but I don't to this date know if it was his idea. He still stood by it so it's a minus. It's not a big enough thing for me to forget about the drafting. The KHL pulls have turned out brilliant, no team just brings up a dominant line like that from a couple of drafts and have it show up that fast.

Failing to tank for Bedard from last place had me more mad than the Babcock ordeal, but the roster is very impressive and Jarmo is a big reason. He just needs to make sure the coaching matches the talent of the roster.

I agree with the young talent, there is more than most teams.
But they have flopped on many coaching decisions (as noted Babcock recently).
Also for such a young team, they don't have a lot of CAP room. Tied up a lot of money and getting little in return. If the team had a lot of roster flexibility (cap room notably) it would be much easier for me to say he's done a good job in building the roster.
As others have said his goal as GM is winning. It's not about winning trades. It's assembling the best team for now and the future. I don't think he understands roster composition at all and how all the pieces fit.
Jarmo would be a great Assistant GM or someone that had another person to give final approval, but he just randomly adds pieces:
-The team needed a goalie - he has ignored for a couple seasons.
-The team needed a better blue line - he ignored before the 2022-23 season and this year instead of signing defensive d-man he acquired 2 guys on paper that looked good but one is strictly and offensive dman and other is solid but not a defensive stud.

 

[Napoli]

It's a really well built team, and that's why I don't get this constant "fire Jarmo" stuff.

I'm going to disagree with this.

This team's defense and Jarmos idea of a good defense is way off. There's not one good defensive defenseman on the roster. We have nothing but puck moving offensive guys who really aren't capable at a shutdown role. Gudbranson and Peeke aren't it either.

This team basically has to outscore their opponents on a nightly basis (i.e. score more than 5 goals) and that's not a recipe for consistency.

Where Jarmo has messed up is his idea of a mobile puck moving defense. While I'd agree with him that the NHL is going there, he's gone full "mobility" with no defense. He's tried to save it by signing Gudbranson (lol) and Severson (another puck moving D!) but it hasn't worked out. Provorov has been ok but really not great defensively either. Essentially the hope is Jiricek and Mateychuk to save the defense but those are just more offensive dmen although I have hopes for their futures.

That all said, I'm not even mentioning throwing 16+ million at two wingers.

 

[BB88]

I'm going to disagree with this.

This team's defense and Jarmos idea of a good defense is way off. There's not one good defensive defenseman on the roster. We have nothing but puck moving offensive guys who really aren't capable at a shutdown role. Gudbranson and Peeke aren't it either.

This team basically has to outscore their opponents on a nightly basis (i.e. score more than 5 goals) and that's not a recipe for consistency.

Where Jarmo has messed up is his idea of a mobile puck moving defense. While I'd agree with him that the NHL is going there, he's gone full "mobility" with no defense. He's tried to save it by signing Gudbranson (lol) and Severson (another puck moving D!) but it hasn't worked out. Provorov has been ok but really not great defensively either. Essentially the hope is Jiricek and Mateychuk to save the defense but those are just more offensive dmen although I have hopes for their futures.

That all said, I'm not even mentioning throwing 16+ million at two wingers.

Are you seeing a finished product?

You are talking like they are supposed to be a finished project right now and contending.

When in reality they are still early in their rebuild and one of the youngest teams in the league.

I’m betting again no matter who’s in charge the defense and team defense are going to look very different in couple of years time

Even the Laine contract isn’t an issue in the longterm model/vision.
His contract runs off when Fantilli& Jiricek get paid. So that contract is not going to tie their hands and not being able to pay the kids

Two things can be true at once. Jarmo and JD can deserve to be fired for the egregious unforced error that was the Babcock debacle and its associated humiliation of a franchise that was already the league’s laughingstock AND we can agree their front office has an excellent scouting department that deserves more credit than they get for building a pool this good this fast.

Don’t forget these same guys had excellent drafting records with St. Louis, too. Jarmo was their director of amateur scouting from 2002 to 2010 and can boast late round home runs such as Lee Stempniak in the fifth round, Roman Polak in the sixth, Ryan Reaves in the fifth on top of obvious first rounders like Backes, Oshie, Tarasenko, Pietrangelo, and Perron (and goalies like Ben Bishop and Jake Allen). Honestly, we should talk MORE about those parallels here.

One of the reasons I wanted to write that post was to highlight their drafting.

There’s been lot of complaint about their drafting(and development) over the last couple of years and wondered has this season opened some eyes about them.

Voronkov, Marchenko, Chinakhov are total later pick gems who’s development we are witnessing before our eyes as an example

 

[Napoli]

Are you seeing a finished product?

You are talking like they are supposed to be a finished project right now and contending.

When in reality they are still early in their rebuild and one of the youngest teams in the league.

I’m betting again no matter who’s in charge the defense and team defense are going to look very different in couple of years time

Even the Laine contract isn’t an issue in the longterm model/vision.
His contract runs off when Fantilli& Jiricek get paid. So that contract is not going to tie their hands and not being able to pay the kids

How many years does it take for a finished product? Another 10 years?

You act like Jarmo just started 5 years ago. That's his team and defense. Compliment his drafting skills but that defense is on him and no, he doesn't get an excuse for it because they're "rebuilding"...again.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I get the feeling a lot of people's perceptions on players is strictly jaded by their contract.

Once again. Elvis is much improved this year but still has a sh*tty D in front of him.

Gudbranson is also improved quite a bit. He has his rle on the team is one of the leaders if people like it or not. He has an attitude this team needs.

I don't care what a guy gets paid. I just care if they do their job and both of those guys are doing their job better this year.

I'm more than willing to rail against the guys who aren't performing. We still play team defense like sh*t. Some of that is inexperience in the forwards and some of it is still poor roster construction on the blue line. A lot of that is what I perceive to be poor assistant coaching hires.

 

[squashmaple]

Are you seeing a finished product?

You are talking like they are supposed to be a finished project right now and contending.

When in reality they are still early in their rebuild and one of the youngest teams in the league.

I’m betting again no matter who’s in charge the defense and team defense are going to look very different in couple of years time



One of the reasons I wanted to write that post was to highlight their drafting.

There’s been lot of complaint about their drafting(and development) over the last couple of years and wondered has this season opened some eyes about them.

Voronkov, Marchenko, Chinakhov are total later pick gems who’s development we are witnessing before our eyes as an example

The complaints about development are not without merit, but the drafting has for the most part been good. Setting asside drafts from 2020-2023 because it's too early to say on those, only obvious misses are Milano, Gabe Carlsson and Foudy--and who knows how much the chaos of the Covid years derailed the latter. Weigh that against obvious and uncontestable wins like Marchenko in the second round, the nerve to take PLD, the late rounds of 2015 that brought in Nutivaara and Gavrikov, Voronkov in the fourth, etc. Is it a perfect draft record? No. But show me a GM who hits 100% of the time. And the fruits of the potential "best" drafts of his tenure here for the most part are still in college, juniors, and the AHL.

 

[koteka]

Voronkov, Marchenko, Chinakhov are total later pick gems who’s development we are witnessing before our eyes as an example

You might have an argument that the CBJ had some role in the development of Chinakhov who came over when he was 20, but there was no part that this team played in the developments of Voronkov and Marchenko. Those guys were developed in the KHL like Panarin or Kaprisov. In fact by highlighting these guys you are showing where the team has been a failure - developing draft picks.

 

[stevo61]

You might have an argument that the CBJ had some role in the development of Chinakhov who came over when he was 20, but there was no part that this team played in the developments of Voronkov and Marchenko. Those guys were developed in the KHL like Panarin or Kaprisov. In fact by highlighting these guys you are showing where the team has been a failure - developing draft picks.

Yes and no. Marchenko's game from last year to this year is night and day. I do like that those guys are plug and play when we wait for them, hopefully Dolzhenkov and Ivanov are similar cases

 

[koteka]

Yes and no. Marchenko's game from last year to this year is night and day. I do like that those guys are plug and play when we wait for them, hopefully Dolzhenkov and Ivanov are similar cases

Is it development or getting used to the NHL?

 

[stevo61]

Ill also say I think people overstate the Russian development a bit. Not that I think its bad, its just they get those guys for awhile and go through the growing pains away from our eyes. We get men, not teenagers that have more runway in front of them. Wasnt long ago there were complaints about Marchenko's icetime in Russia and now hes a star in the making due to Russia's development. His rookie season was at 22, that would be like judging Kent Johnson starting next year.

The only super obvious mishandling to fireable degree is Sillinger

Is it development or getting used to the NHL?

Both, easily

 

[majormajor]

Is it development or getting used to the NHL?

Who knows.

But if you're going to count the ones that don't progress against them, then you should count the ones that do progress too.

Ill also say I think people overstate the Russian development a bit. Not that I think its bad, its just they get those guys for awhile and go through the growing pains away from our eyes. We get men, not teenagers that have more runway in front of them. Wasnt long ago there were complaints about Marchenko's icetime in Russia and now hes a star in the making due to Russia's development. His rookie season was at 22, that would be like judging Kent Johnson starting next year.

The only super obvious mishandling to fireable degree is Sillinger


Both, easily

- They do their awkward growth out of our sight, exactly.

- The Russians also develop against weaker comp, which is much better than following the Sillinger/ Jiricek path.

- Russians consistently churn out elite wingers even when they don't give them ice time, it's obvious that their development model that emphasizes skill training over game time works.

 

[BB88]

The complaints about development are not without merit, but the drafting has for the most part been good. Setting asside drafts from 2020-2023 because it's too early to say on those, only obvious misses are Milano, Gabe Carlsson and Foudy--and who knows how much the chaos of the Covid years derailed the latter. Weigh that against obvious and uncontestable wins like Marchenko in the second round, the nerve to take PLD, the late rounds of 2015 that brought in Nutivaara and Gavrikov, Voronkov in the fourth, etc. Is it a perfect draft record? No. But show me a GM who hits 100% of the time. And the fruits of the potential "best" drafts of his tenure here for the most part are still in college, juniors, and the AHL.

Ofcourse they´ve made mistakes, but some here only see the mistakes, Sillinger as an example and ignore all the good things they´ve done.
Marchenko, Voronkov, Chinakhov are a perfect example of them hitting a ”jackpot” with their later picks and seeing them become impact players at the NHL level

No Gm in this league has a perfect record, but when it comes to draft and developed in recent years Columbus has to rank among the top teams in the league

 

[BB88]

Edit

 

[CBJx614]

Ofcourse they´ve made mistakes, but some here only see the mistakes, Sillinger as an example and ignore all the good things they´ve done.
Marchenko, Voronkov, Chinakhov are a perfect example of them hitting a ”jackpot” with their later picks and seeing them become impact players at the NHL level

No Gm in this league has a perfect record, but when it comes to draft and developed in recent years Columbus has to rank among the top teams in the league

Gavrikov, Elvis, Bjorkstrand.

Not to mention a couple other potential jackpots in Dumais, Malatesta, Dolzy, Ivanov and if we're really really lucky Keskinen.

 

[BB88]

You might have an argument that the CBJ had some role in the development of Chinakhov who came over when he was 20, but there was no part that this team played in the developments of Voronkov and Marchenko. Those guys were developed in the KHL like Panarin or Kaprisov. In fact by highlighting these guys you are showing where the team has been a failure - developing draft picks.

Really?
This is part of why I´ll probably leave this place for good, the negativity is insane around here.

No part in Marchenkos development? What the actual …

Panarin was 24y when he entered the league and both Panarin and Kaprisov were star/superstar tier players the moment they stepped into the NHL. Remind me again how haven’t you seen any development in Marchenkos game from the day he got to the camp last season to this day?
Neither was Voronkov a finished product when he entered the league, they didn´t rush him, got him working on his weaknesses and every week we are seeing the results better and better.

But this only highlights their failures at development, okay

 

[koteka]

No part in Marchenkos development? What the actual …

Marchenko was drafted in 2018. He spent the next season in the VHL and MHL. Then he spent the next season in the VHL and KHL. Then two more seasons mostly in the KHL. There was one year he was actually in the US during prospect camp and didn’t come. This board went nuts over that. Looking back, it was a smart move on his part. Marchenko was 22 and 4 years past his draft year when he started working out with this team. Yes, drafting him was good. But he was developed in Russia.

What I hate about this site is the overly optimistic views. This team is bad. I have objective measures I can point to that demonstrate it is bad. Just look at the standings. This team has not accomplished anything ever. It has made it to the second round of the playoffs once. Yet there were people who keep saying we are almost there and want to keep Jarmo even though he has been here for almost half the franchise’s existence. At the beginning of the season you were on this board saying we have one of the best defenses in the eastern conference. What do you think now? It is the Pollyannas that make me want to leave this board.

 

[squashmaple]

Marchenko was drafted in 2018. He spent the next season in the VHL and MHL. Then he spent the next season in the VHL and KHL. Then two more seasons mostly in the KHL. There was one year he was actually in the US during prospect camp and didn’t come. This board went nuts over that. Looking back, it was a smart move on his part. Marchenko was 22 and 4 years past his draft year when he started working out with this team. Yes, drafting him was good. But he was developed in Russia.

What I hate about this site is the overly optimistic views. This team is bad. I have objective measures I can point to that demonstrate it is bad. Just look at the standings. This team has not accomplished anything ever. It has made it to the second round of the playoffs once. Yet there were people who keep saying we are almost there and want to keep Jarmo even though he has been here for almost half the franchise’s existence. At the beginning of the season you were on this board saying we have one of the best defenses in the eastern conference. What do you think now? It is the Pollyannas that make me want to leave this board.

You're confusing being wholly negative with being objective.