daver
Registered User
I believe the number of seasons they played together provides clear evidence of how a Big 4 player/Top 2 offensive forward of all-time was clearly superior to a 2nd tier/best of the Non Big 4 level player like Jagr (and by reasonable proxy, Crosby and McDavid).
A peak Mario is clearly superior to a teenaged Jagr in their two Cup wins and through 1993. Jagr's rise started in 93/94 when he given the offensive reigns as Mario only played 22 games and finishes 10th in scoring.
In 94/95, Jagr hits his prime with his first Art Ross win at age 22, matching a slightly younger Lindros and somewhat marginally beating the other competition. It was a solid Ross win, made a bit more impressive by his age. By age 22, Mario had won an Art Ross in a dominant fashion that clearly signaled his separation at that age from any other player in NHL history other than Wayne, Howe, and Orr.
In 95/96, an almost peak Mario returns to form and while Jagr separates himself from every other player including a peak Lindros, peak Sakic and prime Forsberg. Statistically, the gap between Jagr and the pack is the same as it would be in 98/99 and 99/00 w/o Mario.
It is not unreasonable to thing that Jagr's significant relative jump in PPG in 95/96 was influenced by the presence of Mario. He went from 15th place in PP points to 3rd. It is less reasonable to presume that Mario's numbers were influenced by Jagr given his history of video game numbers, and carrying linemates.
Even if you do not believe that Jagr's numbers were influenced, you have a close to peak Jagr still being clearly beaten by a close to peak Mario in PPG (2.30 to 1.82).
96/97 sees Jagr get closer to tired, unmotivated Mario who is ready to throw in the towel.
Jagr then has a very solid Ross win in 97/98 then reaches his peak in 98/99 to 99/00 where he separates himself from the pack by a gap that is among the best of the Non-Big 4 but not close to peak Mario. It was close to Mario's 87/88 season.
In 00/01, Jagr is 16th in scoring before an age 35 Mario returns on Dec. 27th. Mario put up a 1.77 PPG for the season, Jagr goes at a 1.87 PPG the rest of the season. Mario outproduces Jagr in the playoffs, even before Jagr gets injured and underperforms in the ECF. It is not unreasonable to conclude that the benefit that a well past prime Mario brought to Jagr was greater than a peak Jagr brought to Mario.
Any doubts about this are erased as a on Jan. 7th, 2003, a 37 year old Mario leads the NHL in scoring by 15 points with a PPG of 1.70 (2nd place was 1.30).
Jagr redeems himself with a "back to prime" season at age 33 in 05/06 but then sees a somewhat expected regression as hits his mid-30s.
The very next year, Crosby hits his prime with "prime Jagr-like" performance at age 19 that would have rivalled Jagr and Thornton the year before. He then matches Jagr's peak per game production from '11 to '13.
Similarly, McDavid hits his prime with "prime Crosby-like" performance at age 19/20 and matches a 30 year Crosby who still in his prime, but not his peak. He then matches Jagr's and Crosby's prime in three of his four last seasons as he hits age 23.
A peak Mario is clearly superior to a teenaged Jagr in their two Cup wins and through 1993. Jagr's rise started in 93/94 when he given the offensive reigns as Mario only played 22 games and finishes 10th in scoring.
In 94/95, Jagr hits his prime with his first Art Ross win at age 22, matching a slightly younger Lindros and somewhat marginally beating the other competition. It was a solid Ross win, made a bit more impressive by his age. By age 22, Mario had won an Art Ross in a dominant fashion that clearly signaled his separation at that age from any other player in NHL history other than Wayne, Howe, and Orr.
In 95/96, an almost peak Mario returns to form and while Jagr separates himself from every other player including a peak Lindros, peak Sakic and prime Forsberg. Statistically, the gap between Jagr and the pack is the same as it would be in 98/99 and 99/00 w/o Mario.
It is not unreasonable to thing that Jagr's significant relative jump in PPG in 95/96 was influenced by the presence of Mario. He went from 15th place in PP points to 3rd. It is less reasonable to presume that Mario's numbers were influenced by Jagr given his history of video game numbers, and carrying linemates.
Even if you do not believe that Jagr's numbers were influenced, you have a close to peak Jagr still being clearly beaten by a close to peak Mario in PPG (2.30 to 1.82).
96/97 sees Jagr get closer to tired, unmotivated Mario who is ready to throw in the towel.
Jagr then has a very solid Ross win in 97/98 then reaches his peak in 98/99 to 99/00 where he separates himself from the pack by a gap that is among the best of the Non-Big 4 but not close to peak Mario. It was close to Mario's 87/88 season.
In 00/01, Jagr is 16th in scoring before an age 35 Mario returns on Dec. 27th. Mario put up a 1.77 PPG for the season, Jagr goes at a 1.87 PPG the rest of the season. Mario outproduces Jagr in the playoffs, even before Jagr gets injured and underperforms in the ECF. It is not unreasonable to conclude that the benefit that a well past prime Mario brought to Jagr was greater than a peak Jagr brought to Mario.
Any doubts about this are erased as a on Jan. 7th, 2003, a 37 year old Mario leads the NHL in scoring by 15 points with a PPG of 1.70 (2nd place was 1.30).
Jagr redeems himself with a "back to prime" season at age 33 in 05/06 but then sees a somewhat expected regression as hits his mid-30s.
The very next year, Crosby hits his prime with "prime Jagr-like" performance at age 19 that would have rivalled Jagr and Thornton the year before. He then matches Jagr's peak per game production from '11 to '13.
Similarly, McDavid hits his prime with "prime Crosby-like" performance at age 19/20 and matches a 30 year Crosby who still in his prime, but not his peak. He then matches Jagr's and Crosby's prime in three of his four last seasons as he hits age 23.
