The Irony of HF Boards

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Drew75

Registered User
Sep 5, 2005
2,518
0
I think it's funny how everyone is calling for the Leafs to "blow it up" :shakehead

So many are calling for a rebuild which takes long term thinking to be successful, but those same people are doing so by applying short term thinking (what have you done for me lately?) to the issue. That's counter intuitive.

This team is not as good as they showed on their run prior to the Olympics and changes definitely need to happen, but they're also not as bad as their collapse.

A guy like Phaneuf for example - he is a classic example of a player being misused. No - he's not a true #1 D, and he's also not a great shut down D, but given 20 - 24 minutes a night with better support, and he's a great #2 on any team. I don't know if he should be captain, only the players in the room know that for sure - but thrown out like so much garbage? He's a valuable asset who has been put in a position to do too much, rather than in a position to succeed.

Clarkson is a guy who had a horrible year. Everything that could go wrong for him, did. He just never got it going between suspensions, injuries, everything. He's not a 30 goal scorer, and wasn't signed to be one (as Nonis himself said). He should be - as he's proven over time - a solid 20 goal guy who plays heart and soul hockey, the kind of guy made for spring hockey. I'm not arguing his contract, but to throw him away after a year when everything went wrong is stupid. He should bounce back next year, and I'm betting the same people suggesting buy out will be putting him on their keeper list a year from now.

This team has a solid core of young players. Guys like Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Reilly, Gardiner, Phaneuf, and Bernier. They need to get a couple of veteran leaders in the room, another top 4 and bottom pairing D, some depth and leadership in the bottom 6, and probably a new coach.

Blow it up? No. Every team goes through growing pains. They are not there yet talent wise, and there is a ways to go - but when you look a few short years ago to where we are today, and it's night and day. We are accumulating talent, but unlike NHL 14, it can't all be done on a Sunday afternoon.

Look at all the people that screamed when we brought in Bernier. All the "Nonis doesn't know what he's doing, we don't need goaltending". :shakehead I don't see those praise Reimer threads anymore.

Yes, we need better coaching, better scouting, and more patience to get there. It's a long and painful process, but it was Nonis who got us Lupul and Gardiner, JVR, and Bernier. He takes a patient and long term approach, he refuses to give up youth for immediate fixes. I'll have faith that a year from now we'll be having a different and more positive perspective on the results. It's about understanding a player can't be judged on one season alone. Understanding that there are ups and downs, that it's a process.

I will look long term, and I will have faith. I know I'll get ripped for this, but we'll see who is right in the end.
 

socko

Registered User
Nov 26, 2013
7,938
6,032
Martinez, GA
Clarkson is a terrible player who is going into his 30s, if you thought the beating he took this year was bad, just wait until next year when his remaining fans realize they have been had.

It seems you're giving Nonis credit for work done under Brian Burke. Nonis's claim to fame is Bernier, but then he has Clarkson along with some other questionable moves at best. I think he should be on a very short leash. Not convinced at all he's a good GM.

But this team does have a fair amount of talent, agree there. But do they have the right GM in place to fix the issues? I have doubts. Shanahan is certainly not an inspiring move for me. Big name without any experience. Very Leafs like move.
 

Drew75

Registered User
Sep 5, 2005
2,518
0
Burke got those players you mentioned minus bernier btw

Even Burke has said it was Nonis negotiating those deals with the teams. Burke gave direction and signed off, but Nonis was the lead negotiator.
 

Leafidelity

Existentially Drifting
Apr 6, 2008
37,991
8,206
Downtown Canada
The true irony is that most of the people that want to "blow it up" are the same ones that won't be patient enough to see it through. Something won't go just right and guess what? They'll say "blow it up" again.
 

Havoc

Registered User
Jul 25, 2009
7,329
7,594
You need to ice 18 skaters and a goalie, and you listed 7 people that are solid enough to stay.

That means we need 12 skaters to replace the non-worthy.

How is that not a blowup? That's more than half the team LoL. If we replace them with prospects, it's guaranteed tank season. We're not signing 12 free agents.

It will be addition by subtraction I suppose which will result in a blow-up so to speak ( if it happens)

This team is destined for a bottom 10 finish again next season regardless if we blow it up or not, unless a huge splash can be made in the off-season or the defensive system is drastically improved.

We will most likely be in the top 3 pick race.
 

Peasy

Registered User
May 25, 2012
17,517
16,149
Star Shoppin
IMO Clarkson won't be anywhere near a 20 goal scorer. Dude has no offensive to his game at all, and no defensive either.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,377
9,634
Like i've been saying. right now we're angry and upset, and I think you need to take that into consideration. This team swings too wild left, or too wild right; they are like a metronome that hasn't been tuned properly.

I can't think of a team recently that would rip off ten wins - then only win 4. then win 3 and then rip off 14 of 18, and then only win 4 more for the rest of the season. So regardless of you say "it's the players, it's the coach it's management, it's leadership - so and so needs better support, etc." Again - I have to go with the JENGA tower analogy. the team was built haberdasher. If you pull out a piece (Bozak, Bolland, Bernier), the tower wobbles crazily. It may not fall for weeks, but it's going to fall, even if you put the piece back.

Most people (myself included) want a LEGO team. You have a firm base, you can build outward, inward, and the base doesn't move, and won't fall over or collapse if you move even several pieces or a top layer. the building and the base still stays strong.

I am of the belief that this team can go from JENGA to LEGO with some moves this offseason. And what I've been saying for a long time - our greatest strength, ironically is our defensive prospects. but by the time they grow up and can really make a difference, our offense on the wrong side of prime.

So it's not so much 'blowing it up', but we need to shed off a lot of pieces that make us "good" now, for being excellent time in, time out. It will take some guts to step back and realise that the team needs some severe tuning to get us ticking slow and steady.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
87,724
13,341
Leafs Home Board
I think it's funny how everyone is calling for the Leafs to "blow it up" :shakehead

I will look long term, and I will have faith. I know I'll get ripped for this, but we'll see who is right in the end.

What is considered long-term?

2007-08: "Clearing the Slate" scorched Earth.
Result: 83 points & 7th from the bottom in the NHL standings.
Bottom 5 in goals against, and PK% (29th) and 14th in Goals For (231 goals)

2008-09:
"It doesn't take 5 years" Rebuild begins.

+ 6 Years/Seasons rebuilding later

2013-14:
Result: 84 points & 8th from the bottom of the league standings.
Bottom 5 in goals against, and PK%(28th) and 14th in Goals For (231 goals).

How long must we still wait for the current rebuild results to start kicking in, as the stats at the beginning of the current 6 year rebuild are virtually the same as the present?.
 

ForSpareParts*

Guest
I've been peaking at hf for a few years now. I'm not sure if it's ironic, but most people here want the flavour of the day top junior prospect. Even at the expense of someone like Kessel. No one here seems to learn from EDM's mistakes though.
 

dubey

$$$$$$$*NICE*$$$$$$$ 69 in 79 $$$$$$$*NICE*$$$$$$$
Oct 22, 2006
25,971
4,434
In your head
OP,

Don't worry yourself over HFboards. You've been registered long enough to know better.

~just here for the lulz~
 

Drew75

Registered User
Sep 5, 2005
2,518
0
The true irony is that most of the people that want to "blow it up" are the same ones that won't be patient enough to see it through. Something won't go just right and guess what? They'll say "blow it up" again.

Agreed.

My point is that I see all these posts suggesting to get rid of Nonis. He saw the need to upgrade our goaltending. He saw the value in a guy like Bolland - who until he got hurt was exactly what we needed. I think he's won - or at least benefited the Leafs - in about every trade he's made. He has shown the ability to assess what the team needs, and while the Clarkson signing hasn't worked out, I think it's too early to write it off.

I admit changes are needed - but we have more solid, long term pieces than people here give us credit for, and blowing everything up is not a rationale answer.
 

Drew75

Registered User
Sep 5, 2005
2,518
0
OP,

Don't worry yourself over HFboards. You've been registered long enough to know better.

~just here for the lulz~

Haha - not worried, I know how it goes here ... but with no Leafs in the playoffs, might as well get a good debate going :naughty:
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
Agreed.

My point is that I see all these posts suggesting to get rid of Nonis. He saw the need to upgrade our goaltending. He saw the value in a guy like Bolland - who until he got hurt was exactly what we needed. I think he's won - or at least benefited the Leafs - in about every trade he's made. He has shown the ability to assess what the team needs, and while the Clarkson signing hasn't worked out, I think it's too early to write it off.

I admit changes are needed - but we have more solid, long term pieces than people here give us credit for, and blowing everything up is not a rationale answer.

it depends what your interpretation is of the bolded.

I'm thinking this roster needs a tactical nuclear strike.

this core has 18 wheeled two 82 game seasons in a row.

our cap situation is what I would consider one of the weakest positions going and our prospects are middling to low end as they come.

I believe our leadership needs a shake up.

I believe this core needs a shake up

I believe our cap needs a shake up

I believe our prospect systems needs a shake up


When I look at the last 3 seasons and add up every single aspect of this team and organisation

The only reasonable solution that keeps coming back up is a strategic strike to the heart of this team. and it's core
 

blueberrie

Registered User
Mar 23, 2010
2,733
404
And I find it ironic that the anti blow up crowd constantly cites Edmonton as a total failure while demanding that we give more time for Kessel, Lupul & Dion to grow.

So all of Edmonton's young guns - who are younger than Kadri - won't ever find success in the league.

But the 28 combined seasons between Kessel, Lupul and Dion mean nothing and we just need to wait a little bit longer for them to find their true games?

Mess said it right, we already sat through the rebuild and the results are awful. Not to mention it was an "accelerated" one so we sacrificed development time for NHL ready players who are now in their primes.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,377
9,634
I've been peaking at hf for a few years now. I'm not sure if it's ironic, but most people here want the flavour of the day top junior prospect. Even at the expense of someone like Kessel. No one here seems to learn from EDM's mistakes though.

Edmonton's mistakes is that they didn't draft properly. It was forward, after forward, after forward. How many times have people said "oh - the Oilers should have drafted a defenseman instead of a forward?"

It doesn't have to be 'the Edmonton' way - or the 'Chicago' way etc. but in a salary cap world, we have to draft smarter which we haven't done for ages..

It's also not "ooh shiny toy!" in regards to prospects. It's like preparing for winter. right now we've got a decent enough pantry, but there are teams that are stuffed full of prospects.

People are so quick to go "Well if we trade Kessel? What?" or "If we trade Phaneuf, what?" are you telling me that people in Columbus didn't have to go through that same decision with Nash? You take the courage to make the tough decisions, draft well, and succeed.
 

TheThrill81*

Guest
A guy like Phaneuf for example - he is a classic example of a player being misused. No - he's not a true #1 D, and he's also not a great shut down D, but given 20 - 24 minutes a night with better support, and he's a great #2 on any team. I don't know if he should be captain, only the players in the room know that for sure - but thrown out like so much garbage? He's a valuable asset who has been put in a position to do too much, rather than in a position to succeed.

Except that he is a true #1 D, and is also a great shutdown D. But I can understand your confusion, even the best d-men wouldn't look as good on a defensively inept team like the Leafs. Let's keep in mind that playing defense is the responsibility of the entire team and not just one player.

Burke got those players you mentioned minus bernier btw

Burke didn't get Clarkson.
 

cyris

On a Soma Holiday
Dec 6, 2008
17,000
4,812
3rd Planet From Sun.
Edmonton's mistakes is that they didn't draft properly. It was forward, after forward, after forward. How many times have people said "oh - the Oilers should have drafted a defenseman instead of a forward?"

It doesn't have to be 'the Edmonton' way - or the 'Chicago' way etc. but in a salary cap world, we have to draft smarter which we haven't done for ages..

It's also not "ooh shiny toy!" in regards to prospects. It's like preparing for winter. right now we've got a decent enough pantry, but there are teams that are stuffed full of prospects.

People are so quick to go "Well if we trade Kessel? What?" or "If we trade Phaneuf, what?" are you telling me that people in Columbus didn't have to go through that same decision with Nash? You take the courage to make the tough decisions, draft well, and succeed.
The Oilers have drafted some good defensive prospects too. Dmen take longer to develop. Nurse, Klefbom, and Marincin are great prospects.
It was probably a mistake to take Yak over Murray but besides that they havent really past up on a better Dman for a forward.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
87,724
13,341
Leafs Home Board
Mess said it right, we already sat through the rebuild and the results are awful. Not to mention it was an "accelerated" one so we sacrificed development time for NHL ready players who are now in their primes.

We have already fired the main architect GM of this rebuild and his coach. Now the 2nd pair are on thin ice as well due to the poor results with either or both jobs in jeopardy.

Nothing screams successful rebuild in progress then changing management team combo Coach and GM every few years along the way as a sign everything is going as planned. ;)

If Blake, Pony, Stajan, Kaberle and Toskala produce the same team results as Kessel, JVR, Lupul, Phaneuf and Reimer/Bernier are you really gaining traction or simply spinning your wheels in the sand with different players?
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
80,764
57,907
A guy like Phaneuf for example - he is a classic example of a player being misused. No - he's not a true #1 D, and he's also not a great shut down D, but given 20 - 24 minutes a night with better support, and he's a great #2 on any team. I don't know if he should be captain, only the players in the room know that for sure - but thrown out like so much garbage? He's a valuable asset who has been put in a position to do too much, rather than in a position to succeed.

Phaneuf is going to make $8 million a season the next two years with a $7 million cap hit for the next seven. Where are we going to find a number one defenseman to babysit him and cover for all of his bonehead mistakes and how much is it going to cost in cap space? Phaneuf is a broken part of the equation and the best thing to do is to recoup assets for him in a trade so we have a better cap structure to build.

Clarkson is a guy who had a horrible year. Everything that could go wrong for him, did. He just never got it going between suspensions, injuries, everything. He's not a 30 goal scorer, and wasn't signed to be one (as Nonis himself said). He should be - as he's proven over time - a solid 20 goal guy who plays heart and soul hockey, the kind of guy made for spring hockey. I'm not arguing his contract, but to throw him away after a year when everything went wrong is stupid. He should bounce back next year, and I'm betting the same people suggesting buy out will be putting him on their keeper list a year from now.

Who cares if we do throw him away? We got him for nothing but money and if we can move him to another team we'll have a boatload of money to try another experiment. We can keep him around another year, it doesn't bother me that much (it may be easier to dump him with less money and term left on the books), but the idea that you have to double down on your mistakes is stupidity.

This team has a solid core of young players. Guys like Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Reilly, Gardiner, Phaneuf, and Bernier. They need to get a couple of veteran leaders in the room, another top 4 and bottom pairing D, some depth and leadership in the bottom 6, and probably a new coach.

Blow it up? No. Every team goes through growing pains. They are not there yet talent wise, and there is a ways to go - but when you look a few short years ago to where we are today, and it's night and day. We are accumulating talent, but unlike NHL 14, it can't all be done on a Sunday afternoon.

Again, stupid. The Leafs don't have a core. They have a lot of young pieces who have potential and value and could eventually form a core. A big part of building a winner is identifying who belongs in the core and who can be moved out for better pieces that fit a winning team. Detroit traded away Paul Coffey and Keith Primeau to get Brendan Shanahan to win their first cup...

Look at all the people that screamed when we brought in Bernier. All the "Nonis doesn't know what he's doing, we don't need goaltending". :shakehead I don't see those praise Reimer threads anymore.

I will look long term, and I will have faith. I know I'll get ripped for this, but we'll see who is right in the end.

I think you're arguing against yourself here. You're advocating that we stay patient with what's in place and not working, yet you cite the Bernier trade.

The Bernier trade is exactly what we're talking about when we say blow it up. Blowing it up doesn't mean selling everything off for 4th round picks, it means making smart hockey decisions with all of our pieces and upgrade on what we have. If the Leafs can get pieces that make more sense going forward for Kessel, JVR, Gardiner, Kadri, Lupul, Phaneuf, Franson, etc. go ahead and do it.

I'm not convinced we have a good recipe with this group, but there's a lot of raw materials to build. We could have a 90% turnover on this roster and I wouldn't miss anybody if it meant the Leafs become a power house as a result.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
I think it's funny how everyone is calling for the Leafs to "blow it up" :shakehead

So many are calling for a rebuild which takes long term thinking to be successful, but those same people are doing so by applying short term thinking (what have you done for me lately?) to the issue. That's counter intuitive.

This team is not as good as they showed on their run prior to the Olympics and changes definitely need to happen, but they're also not as bad as their collapse.

A guy like Phaneuf for example - he is a classic example of a player being misused. No - he's not a true #1 D, and he's also not a great shut down D, but given 20 - 24 minutes a night with better support, and he's a great #2 on any team. I don't know if he should be captain, only the players in the room know that for sure - but thrown out like so much garbage? He's a valuable asset who has been put in a position to do too much, rather than in a position to succeed.

Clarkson is a guy who had a horrible year. Everything that could go wrong for him, did. He just never got it going between suspensions, injuries, everything. He's not a 30 goal scorer, and wasn't signed to be one (as Nonis himself said). He should be - as he's proven over time - a solid 20 goal guy who plays heart and soul hockey, the kind of guy made for spring hockey. I'm not arguing his contract, but to throw him away after a year when everything went wrong is stupid. He should bounce back next year, and I'm betting the same people suggesting buy out will be putting him on their keeper list a year from now.

This team has a solid core of young players. Guys like Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Reilly, Gardiner, Phaneuf, and Bernier. They need to get a couple of veteran leaders in the room, another top 4 and bottom pairing D, some depth and leadership in the bottom 6, and probably a new coach.

Blow it up? No. Every team goes through growing pains. They are not there yet talent wise, and there is a ways to go - but when you look a few short years ago to where we are today, and it's night and day. We are accumulating talent, but unlike NHL 14, it can't all be done on a Sunday afternoon.

Look at all the people that screamed when we brought in Bernier. All the "Nonis doesn't know what he's doing, we don't need goaltending". :shakehead I don't see those praise Reimer threads anymore.

Yes, we need better coaching, better scouting, and more patience to get there. It's a long and painful process, but it was Nonis who got us Lupul and Gardiner, JVR, and Bernier. He takes a patient and long term approach, he refuses to give up youth for immediate fixes. I'll have faith that a year from now we'll be having a different and more positive perspective on the results. It's about understanding a player can't be judged on one season alone. Understanding that there are ups and downs, that it's a process.

I will look long term, and I will have faith. I know I'll get ripped for this, but we'll see who is right in the end.

I also get the sense from reading your post is that

"just making the playoffs" is a payoff for you

this is something we do not share
 

hotpaws

Registered User
Nov 21, 2009
22,031
6,640
The true irony is that most of the people that want to "blow it up" are the same ones that won't be patient enough to see it through. Something won't go just right and guess what? They'll say "blow it up" again.

The irony is people like you who didn`t have the patience for a legit rebuild and believed we`d be winning cups by now with Burkes accelerated retool are now preaching to others who were prepared for a long rebuild .`
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
80,764
57,907
The irony is people like you who didn`t have the patience for a legit rebuild and believed we`d be winning cups by now with Burkes accelerated retool are now preaching to others who were prepared for a long rebuild .`

In some alternate universe the Leafs are up 2-0 against the Habs with our properly rebuilt team led by Stamkos and Tavares. Yeah but tanking sucks!
 

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