The Four Nations Tournament Thread

[HairyKneel]

The US has won one best on best men's tournament in the last 30 years. Now they are far and away the team to beat.....sorry I'm not seeing it.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Legitimately curious how Matthews does in this event. His big game play has not impressed me one bit to this point. Compared to some of Canada’s big guns up front, it’s not even close.

But USA’s defense and goaltending on paper is dramatically superior.

 

[MS]

The US has won one best on best men's tournament in the last 30 years. Now they are far and away the team to beat.....sorry I'm not seeing it.

I don't know what their squads from 20 or 30 years ago have to do with now. If you look at their squad from the 2006 Olympics as an example it's hilariously bad compared to now.

Also there hasn't even been a BoB tournament in 9 years. Basically the entire NDTP generation has happened since then. It's a totally different world.

 

[sting101]

who would you pick to win a cup

*Makar or Hughes
*Theodore or Fox
**Pietrangelo or MacAvoy
Morrissey or Werenski
*Toews or Slavin
Sanheim or Hanifin
*Parayko or Faber

Do you pick the group that has 6 Cups and 4 players that play together or the "better US group"??

Not seeing this better US defence.

Up front from the start of 23/24 to now ES pts

MacKinnon 119 - Matthews 89
MacDavid 112 - Guentzel 73
Crosby 89 - Eichel 71
Marner 78 - M.Tkachuk 71
Reinhart 76 - B.Tkachuk 70
(+)Stone 48 - (+)Hughes 61

Hagel 89 - Miller 72
Konecny 74 - Connor 63
Point 73 - Boldy 63
Cirelli 54 - Nelson 62
Marchand 52 - Trocheck 61
Jarvis 50 - Larkin 52
Bennett 48 - Kreider 46

Better top6 easily

Us has a slightly better productive btm6 but look at those names and tell me who you would rather have as 3rd and 4th liners

CANADA PP1 = Mackinnon McDavid Crosby Reinhart Makar
USA PP1 = Matthews Eichel M.Tkachuk J.Hughes Q.Hughes

Not sure exactly how this breaks down but again Canada has the best possible guys in every spot on the PP with the exception of maybe having Draisaitl on the right flank to receive McDavids cross seam passes. But Crosby is alright?

It's goaltending and that's it. Canada all day long unless the net lets them down

 

[MS]

who would you pick to win a cup

*Makar or Hughes
*Theodore or Fox
**Pietrangelo or MacAvoy
Morrissey or Werenski
*Toews or Slavin
Sanheim or Hanifin
*Parayko or Faber

Do you pick the group that has 6 Cups and 4 players that play together or the "better US group"??

I take Hughes over Makar, easily, right now. Hughes has hit different levels defensively and as an all-around influencer of the game.

Fox over Theodore isn't close.

I'd take McAvoy over a 35 year old Pietrangelo.

Morrissey vs. Werenski is close.

Slavin is better than Toews.

Hanifin is better than Sanheim.

Faber is better than Parayko.

I don't really care about Cup rings and don't really think they matter much in a short tournament like this.

 

[bandwagonesque]

The Canadian defence isn't the best of all Canadian defencemen, but every single player is top-pairing quality and will be playing shorter shifts then they ever have so I think the difference flattens out considerably. Goaltending will probably be the deciding factor.

 

[sting101]

I take Hughes over Makar, easily, right now. Hughes has hit different levels defensively and as an all-around influencer of the game.

Fox over Theodore isn't close.

I'd take McAvoy over a 35 year old Pietrangelo.

Morrissey vs. Werenski is close.

Slavin is better than Toews.

Hanifin is better than Sanheim.

Faber is better than Parayko.

I don't really care about Cup rings and don't really think they matter much in a short tournament like this.

Nah your being biased

Makar is a Conn Smythe winner and has a more dynamic shot which we saw last year was an issue with Hughes in the playoffs when everything was more ramped up. Until proven otherwise Makar is a better elimination game bet with a track record. 0 goals in 13 playoff games wont get er done sorry to say.

Fox is not much if at all better than Theodore in this type of tourney. Fox gives up more high danger chances is weaker and a slower skater. P/60 is also slightly better at ES for Theodore from the start of 2023 season. Fox at moving the puck and overall over 82 regular season games sure but in a tourney where Hughes probably gets the PP1 role he's a weaker defender. If anything all it does is off set the above a little. There is not a gulf between the 2 at all

The rest is just you're opinion because there is very little to back it up given they will be in support roles. Pietrangelo being 35 isn't really relevant given he wont be asked to play 25minutes. Not many if any have been as good in elimination games over the last 5 years and during their careers. They all move the puck excellent how they defend is key

X/GA 60 - HDCA%

Makar 2.39 - 10.31 vs Hughes 2.31 - 10.71
Theodore 2.49 - 11.28 vs Fox 2.50 - 10.74
Pietrangelo 2.89 - 12.05 vs MacAvoy 2.52 - 11.79
Sanheim 2.36 - 9.78 vs Hanifin 2.67 - 11.32
Morrissey 2.53 - 11.37 vs Werenski 2.98 - 13.67
Toews 2.33 - 10.51 vs Slavin 2.33 - 9.92
Parayko 2.66 - 11.43 vs Faber 2.25 - 9.28

It's really an even group with the advantage of having Makar's shot in PP situations.

None of them get the advantage of playing against weak teams and players in this tourney plus will have less minutes for the most part. It's entirely likely Werenski or Parayko for that matter could struggle or that Faber or Morrissey struggles with pressure. US is not superior

 

[MS]

Nah your being biased

Makar is a Conn Smythe winner and has a more dynamic shot which we saw last year was an issue with Hughes in the playoffs when everything was more ramped up. Until proven otherwise Makar is a better elimination game bet with a track record. 0 goals in 13 playoff games wont get er done sorry to say.

Fox is not much if at all better than Theodore in this type of tourney. Fox gives up more high danger chances is weaker and a slower skater. P/60 is also slightly better at ES for Theodore from the start of 2023 season. Fox at moving the puck and overall over 82 regular season games sure but in a tourney where Hughes probably gets the PP1 role he's a weaker defender. If anything all it does is off set the above a little. There is not a gulf between the 2 at all

The rest is just you're opinion because there is very little to back it up given they will be in support roles. Pietrangelo being 35 isn't really relevant given he wont be asked to play 25minutes. Not many if any have been as good in elimination games over the last 5 years and during their careers. They all move the puck excellent how they defend is key

X/GA 60 - HDCA%

Makar 2.39 - 10.31 vs Hughes 2.31 - 10.71
Theodore 2.49 - 11.28 vs Fox 2.50 - 10.74
Pietrangelo 2.89 - 12.05 vs MacAvoy 2.52 - 11.79
Sanheim 2.36 - 9.78 vs Hanifin 2.67 - 11.32
Morrissey 2.53 - 11.37 vs Werenski 2.98 - 13.67
Toews 2.33 - 10.51 vs Slavin 2.33 - 9.92
Parayko 2.66 - 11.43 vs Faber 2.25 - 9.28

It's really an even group with the advantage of having Makar's shot in PP situations

How am I being biased? I *HATE* US sports teams and cheer against them at any/every possible opportunity.

Hughes is just flat-out better than Makar at this point. He won the Norris last year for a reason. He tilts the ice for his team in virtually every game. He's basically equal to Makar offensively while he's also hugely levelled up defensively. Makar is obviously a ridiculous offensive weapon who works great with MacKinnon but he seems to have plateaued as a guy who is a bit wobbly defensively and who you don't really want in leverage minutes.

I really don't care about advanced stats which are entirely dependent on team and usage.

Put it this way : as a Canadian, I can't find a soft pairing in that US group where McDavid and MacKinnon can feast. But I can sure as hell find defenders in our group (an old, slow Pietrangelo, slow Parayko, Makar) who I don't really want playing leverage defensive minutes against Eichel/Matthews etc.

 

[VanillaCoke]

I dont see the the US defense as better and certainly nowhere near dramatically better cmon now, and I'm probably Fox's biggest fan in Canada.

Canada's forwards & Defenseman combo are the best, and in a short tournament like this having your top four defensemen all be quality top pairs, already extremely familiar with each other can't be understated. And you still have top pairing quality players on your bottom pair, it's extremely strong.

Only the goaltending is an obvious weak link for Canada compared to the USA and sweden, but it's only three or four games over ten days.
Hill and Montembeault are more than adequate behind the strength of roster in front of them to keep the team in games, if not be solid.

 

[sting101]

I dont see the the US defense as better and certainly nowhere near dramatically better cmon now.

Canada's forwards & Defenseman combo are the best, and in a short tournament like this having your top four defensemen all be quality top pairs, already extremely familiar with each other can't be understated. And you still have top pairing quality players on your bottom pair, it's extremely strong.

Only the goaltending is an obvious weak link for Canada compared to the USA and sweden, but it's only three or four games over ten days.
Hill and Montembeault are more than adequate behind the strength of roster in front of them to keep the team in games, if not be solid.

Truth

The goalies could be a huge issue though so i wouldn't blow that off.

How am I being biased? I *HATE* US sports teams and cheer against them at any/every possible opportunity.

Hughes is just flat-out better than Makar at this point. He won the Norris last year for a reason. He tilts the ice for his team in virtually every game. He's basically equal to Makar offensively while he's also hugely levelled up defensively. Makar is obviously a ridiculous offensive weapon who works great with MacKinnon but he seems to have plateaued as a guy who is a bit wobbly defensively and who you don't really want in leverage minutes.

I really don't care about advanced stats which are entirely dependent on team and usage.

Put it this way : as a Canadian, I can't find a soft pairing in that US group where McDavid and MacKinnon can feast. But I can sure as hell find defenders in our group (an old, slow Pietrangelo, slow Parayko, Makar) who I don't really want playing leverage defensive minutes against Eichel/Matthews etc.

WTHell??

Hughes has 2 goals in 30 playoff games running PP1.
Makar has 140pts since the start of 2023 and has 20goals in 62 games since his rookie year in playoff hockey.

Quinn was full value for the Norris but this is a weird line in the sand to draw. Makar with MacKinnon Crosby and McDavid on PP1 is gonna be insane.

And as mentioned the familiarity to hit the ground running is an advantage for Toews-Makar Theodore-Pietrangelo and MacKinnon with Makar on PP1. If the US is smart they would be wise to try to mirror that with Miller - Hughes but im not sure that's even in the same ball park as he aforementioned.

Parayko is probably better defending than Werenski if were nit picking so i dont get the soft pairing claim either. It's all extremely negligible and they will be asked to do less and amp up vs a 82 game marathon

 

[MS]

Truth

The goalies could be a huge issue though so i wouldn't blow that off.

WTHell??

Hughes has 2 goals in 30 playoff games running PP1.
Makar has 140pts since the start of 2023 and has 20goals in 62 games since his rookie year in playoff hockey.

Quinn was full value for the Norris but this is a weird line in the sand to draw. Makar with MacKinnon Crosby and McDavid on PP1 is gonna be insane.

And as mentioned the familiarity to hit the ground running is an advantage for Toews-Makar Theodore-Pietrangelo and MacKinnon with Makar on PP1. If the US is smart they would be wise to try to mirror that with Miller - Hughes but im not sure that's even in the same ball park as he aforementioned.

Parayko is probably better defending than Werenski if were nit picking so i dont get the soft pairing claim either. It's all extremely negligible and they will be asked to do less and amp up vs a 82 game marathon

I mean, there's more to being a defender than scoring goals? Again: watching them play, Hughes has gone to a different level defensively from Makar. Makar is a massive weapon but he's a chance-trader. Hughes is a game-controller.

Makar also gets to play with MacKinnon and Rantanen in a much more offense-oriented system.

No argument that Canada's PP1 will be insane. Canada's big advantage in this tournament is that we have easily the best two forwards. That may win us the tournament. But man-for-man past those two guys, the US is clearly better at every position. And their defense is f***ing outstanding - from guy 1-7 it's prime-age players who are all great at both ends of the rink and have terrific mobility.

 

[HairyKneel]

Our top end forwards are easily better than the US

McDavid and Mackinnon blow away Eichel and the Pigman. It isn't close.

At worst ......at the very worst..... Marner and Rhino are equal o the Tkwchuks

Konecny and Boldy is a wash

The bottom 7 or 8 guys favors the good guys. Guys like Kreider or Slug Nelson would not get a sniff of Canada's B squad. We are faster and grittier.,

I'll take Theodore over Fox
Petro over Slavinn
Morrisey over Hanifan
Werenski is better than Toews
Hughes and Makar is a wash

US clearly has better goalies.

The meat puppets at TSN are all dunking on the Americans balls. Tells me all I need to know.

 

[sting101]

I mean, there's more to being a defender than scoring goals? Again: watching them play, Hughes has gone to a different level defensively from Makar. Makar is a massive weapon but he's a chance-trader. Hughes is a game-controller.

Makar also gets to play with MacKinnon and Rantanen in a much more offense-oriented system.

No argument that Canada's PP1 will be insane. Canada's big advantage in this tournament is that we have easily the best two forwards. That may win us the tournament. But man-for-man past those two guys, the US is clearly better at every position. And their defense is f***ing outstanding - from guy 1-7 it's prime-age players who are all great at both ends of the rink and have terrific mobility.

I respect your view but disagree

I think our top 5 players are better. Our PP should be insane. We have more hit the ground running chemistry in some of the players. Our btm6 has better faster 2 way defensive players and the US lacks quality right hand shots up front which negates some options on their PPs.

Canada all the way unless our GKs crap the bed.

Robertson has 63 ES pts since the start of 2023 Wyatt Johnston has 62 Duchene 66 Scheifele 73 Thomas 68 Lafreniere 68 Verhaeghe 63 Strome 68 Suzuki 65 Kyrou 64 .

We're still deeper and better up front than the Trumpers

 

[HairyKneel]

^^^Wish I could like ^^^

 

[Ernie]

Is there any evidence that having a defence pair that plays together in the NHL is an advantage in an international tournament? It seems like any familiarity would be overridden by playing a different system and having a different groups of forwards around them.

I could see a better argument for a winger playing with an elite center if that winger knows the kind of spots the center will find them in.

 

[credulous]

hanifin is the 3rd best vegas defender on either roster and i think parayko is being underrated here. he's not the monster he once was but he's still good enough to be one of the best players in the world in short stints

i'd probably take canada's defense over the usas but the usa has better forward depth and way better goaltending

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

I really don't get not picking Logan Thompson. Easily better than Montembeault and Binnington. I get the politics with Montembeault, and he has pretty decent numbers behind a shit Habs defence. Binnington is just a horrible pick though. Still living off that he got hot as a rookie and won a cup. He was a good starter for a couple years after but has not been a good starter for 4 years now.

 

[HairyKneel]

hanifin is the 3rd best vegas defender on either roster and i think parayko is being underrated here. he's not the monster he once was but he's still good enough to be one of the best players in the world in short stints

i'd probably take canada's defense over the usas but the usa has better forward depth and way better goaltending

Hanifin is worse than Theodore or Morrissey. Werenski is a much better player than Gentle Noah. Hanifin is so vanilla. He would maybe be a 4 or 5 on Canada. Toews may turn outo be a great decision or a mistake. I have no idea how anyone can rate the bottom to lines of US ahead of Canada. The goaltending isn't close. Everyone's got opinions:

If you want a good laugh or you want to know who huffs gas check out Oiler fans reactions to the selections. Mostly in their cesspool but also on the main board where they seem o be universally laughed at.

 

[racerjoe]

I think having pairs that have played together is so huge and is where Canada has an edge in a tournament like this. It was a huge reason Canada won gold in the olympics. For that reason I do take our defense over the US. I also take our top 6 forwards over there’s, and like our mix of forwards better than theirs… but god dman does our goaltending suck… I remember when it was hands down the best in the world… and now we have Jordan f***ing Binnington

 

[credulous]

I think having pairs that have played together is so huge and is where Canada has an edge in a tournament like this. It was a huge reason Canada won gold in the olympics. For that reason I do take our defense over the US. I also take our top 6 forwards over there’s, and like our mix of forwards better than theirs… but god dman does our goaltending suck… I remember when it was hands down the best in the world… and now we have Jordan f***ing Binnington

pietrangelo and theodore both play the right side for vegas. they only really play together if a left shot dman is out and they need to move theodore back to the left

 

[JT Milker]

I find it wild that we get to watch Hughes absolutely dominate games in a way no other defender in the league can, and there are people who think he’s not the 2nd best player in the world because he doesn’t score a ton of pp goals.

I respect your view but disagree

I think our top 5 players are better. Our PP should be insane. We have more hit the ground running chemistry in some of the players. Our btm6 has better faster 2 way defensive players and the US lacks quality right hand shots up front which negates some options on their PPs.

Canada all the way unless our GKs crap the bed.

Robertson has 63 ES pts since the start of 2023 Wyatt Johnston has 62 Duchene 66 Scheifele 73 Thomas 68 Lafreniere 68 Verhaeghe 63 Strome 68 Suzuki 65 Kyrou 64 .

We're still deeper and better up front than the Trumpers

Kind reminder that this poster called gay pride woke. Don’t post Trump shit on this board, thanks.

 

[sting101]

I find it wild that we get to watch Hughes absolutely dominate games in a way no other defender in the league can, and there are people who think he’s not the 2nd best player in the world because he doesn’t score a ton of pp goals.


Kind reminder that this poster called gay pride woke. Don’t post Trump shit on this board, thanks.

What the hell are you on about?

 

[racerjoe]

pietrangelo and theodore both play the right side for vegas. they only really play together if a left shot dman is out and they need to move theodore back to the left

I for sure don’t watch enough, but they play the third most minutes together it looks like if I am reading this right… and that still means something in a short tournament

NHL Lines Advanced Stats

The Best Offensive and Defensive Lines in the NHL

moneypuck.com

 

[supercanuck]

I really don't get not picking Logan Thompson. Easily better than Montembeault and Binnington. I get the politics with Montembeault, and he has pretty decent numbers behind a shit Habs defence. Binnington is just a horrible pick though. Still living off that he got hot as a rookie and won a cup. He was a good starter for a couple years after but has not been a good starter for 4 years now.

If last night's game was any indication, Thompson should be the starter. LOL

 

[Regress2TheMeme]

Can't say i really care about this tournament. It feels like another contrived, half baked NHL product.