The Erik "Gudzilla" Gudbranson Thread

[turd]

It’s unfortunate that he couldn’t play last night because it’d be really nice to see what we got. We can surmise, and there’s certainly plenty of data to kinda clue us in on what we’re (maybe/probably) getting, but you don’t really know until he plays. Unfortunately for him, he’s gonna wait 4-5 days from the trade to play, and the banter isn’t gonna stop anytime soon.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

He plays him more even with these guys in. I wouldn't even play Maatta more,cos he has his issues, but guys like Pets and even Ruh more at ES, who can move the puck and can have their heads above the water defensively. Because while JJ is average to below average defensively, he's killing an offensive potential of a team when he's on the ice.

That’s why he is the coach of the Penguins and you are just some guy complaining on a message board. I am with Sullivan, not every defenseman needs to be great in the offensive end that is why you pair them with a defenseman that is. The Johnson-Schultz pairing has looked really good even playing top pairing minutes these last two games. Johnson has been a +10 player since his first 25 games with the Pens while playing top 4 minutes or better so as long as our team is scoring more goals than the competition while he is on the ice he must be doing something right. It is not like he is a -27 playing less minutes like Gudbranson is. The good thing about Gudbranson is he was half decent compared to his teammates in Florida so I am just going to wait and see if it was the system in Vancouver that was not for his style.

I could see all this Johnson hate if he was still playing like his first 25 games when he was a -13 and getting beat badly all the time. Johnson rarely gets beat since then and I have seen players like Pettersson and Dumoulin get beat more than him one on one. I think he is very solid in his own end and is a great defenseman to have in front of the net. But but the advanced stats are bad!?!

Sorry I trust Sullivan but you can have your fun bashing players. If it gets bad enough that’s why I have that ignore button.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

It’s unfortunate that he couldn’t play last night because it’d be really nice to see what we got. We can surmise, and there’s certainly plenty of data to kinda clue us in on what we’re (maybe/probably) getting, but you don’t really know until he plays. Unfortunately for him, he’s gonna wait 4-5 days from the trade to play, and the banter isn’t gonna stop anytime soon.

Do you think he cares about the banter on a message board?

Those extra days are great to get him some practice with his teammates and learn our system a little before playing. This is probably best case scenario.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

I do want to see how Gudbranson does here before I say how bad he is. He was fine overall for Florida, he wasn't anything great but he was a perfectly serviceable physical bottom pair defenseman. I want to see what he can do on a playoff team that properly utilizes him. I don't think his performance in Vancouver is indicative of the caliber of player he is, I just don't know how much better he actually is.

This was my thoughts also. He was fairly decent in Florida so I am optimistic he can play well on our 3rd pairing if we find the right defense partner for him. I hope Pettersson is that guy. Unless we are going to try the next Scudill that won us a Cup in 2009. Jobranson is the new Scudill, ha ha. Seriously though I like the Johnson-Schultz pairing and hope Pettersson-Gudbranson works also.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

“We need him,” Pettersson said. “He can move the puck. He skates really well. I had the fortune to practice with him. He reads the ice very well. I think he’ll fit in, quite similar to a guy like Jack Johnson. It’s easy to read off him and play with him. He thinks the game very well. You know he’s always going to be in the right position.”

Kevin Gorman: Erik Gudbranson the guy Penguins want in their corner | TribLIVE.com

 

[Multigrain]

This was my thoughts also. He was fairly decent in Florida so I am optimistic he can play well on our 3rd pairing if we find the right defense partner for him. I hope Pettersson is that guy. Unless we are going to try the next Scudill that won us a Cup in 2009. Jobranson is the new Scudill, ha ha. Seriously though I like the Johnson-Schultz pairing and hope Pettersson-Gudbranson works also.

He is making 4M a year isn't he? It better work out.

 

[Spoonman32]

It just pisses me off to no end that we had an identity.

WE HAD A ****ING IDENTITY.

We won 2 cups with that identity.

Then we suddenly do a 180, and go directly in the opposite direction for no apparent reason.

Every other damn team saw that our identity was something to emulate, and now those teams are the top teams in the league. What the actual ****?

 

[Spoonman32]

Here's the thing: does JR even place that much importance in an actual identity?
To him, the identity is not so much about defining a style of play and finding the right fits. The only identity he seems to embrace is nothing more than one in which players can turn their careers around. That's how it's defined from many outside the team itself, even Gudbranson himself said it. It's a philosophy built on hope being the plan. That seems like pretty much the extent to which he defines or values an actual identity. So getting bigger and/or tougher is not really a deviation from any perceived identity in JR's eyes.

And lets be honest, the identity of this team formed in the '16 run that we all praise and want right now was never really sustainable. That identity encompassed much more than adopting speed and quick transition. There was a culture change like we haven't seen in years uprooting the veteran entitlement surrounding the core who were suddenly being challenged by prospects. Playing time was based on merit instead of status. Players brought in via trade or from the minors never felt the pressure to produce but rather "just play" to their strengths. A complete buy-in from everyone. That was our identity and that band broke up. What we have seen since is a collection of individuals preoccupied with playing for their next contracts or desperate to rediscover their lost scoring touch.

JR was never brought in to be a man with a plan. It was meant to be for a short period of time, helping transition the 18 AGMs into the job and in the meantime, make the kind of decisions Shero was unwilling to make. Just tinker here and there. He did that...and continues to do what he's always done to this day. We were all just very fortunate there were a couple of forced detours along the road in '16 and '17.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It just pisses me off to no end that we had an identity.

WE HAD A ****ING IDENTITY.

We won 2 cups with that identity.

Then we suddenly do a 180, and go directly in the opposite direction for no apparent reason.

Every other damn team saw that our identity was something to emulate, and now those teams are the top teams in the league. What the actual ****?

Yeah. Even beyond the frustration, it's just... Why?

You settle into a style that's so successful that the entire league starts to shift their approach to the game to copy it. That should tell you its worth sticking to--but I mean, maybe the back to back Cups already told you that anyway.

Just weird stuff, man. The complete 180 this team made after winning the 2nd of back to backs really, really makes me wonder how much power and decision making Botterill really had. He left right around the beginning of the Senators series in the 2017 playoffs. After winning the Cup, JR (and Guerin, I suppose, but I have no idea what he does or how much influence he has) had full control of the reigns and, well, the odd (read: stupid) choices began.

 

[EightyOne]

That’s why he is the coach of the Penguins and you are just some guy complaining on a message board. I am with Sullivan, not every defenseman needs to be great in the offensive end that is why you pair them with a defenseman that is. The Johnson-Schultz pairing has looked really good even playing top pairing minutes these last two games. Johnson has been a +10 player since his first 25 games with the Pens while playing top 4 minutes or better so as long as our team is scoring more goals than the competition while he is on the ice he must be doing something right. It is not like he is a -27 playing less minutes like Gudbranson is. The good thing about Gudbranson is he was half decent compared to his teammates in Florida so I am just going to wait and see if it was the system in Vancouver that was not for his style.

I could see all this Johnson hate if he was still playing like his first 25 games when he was a -13 and getting beat badly all the time. Johnson rarely gets beat since then and I have seen players like Pettersson and Dumoulin get beat more than him one on one. I think he is very solid in his own end and is a great defenseman to have in front of the net. But but the advanced stats are bad!?!

Sorry I trust Sullivan but you can have your fun bashing players. If it gets bad enough that’s why I have that ignore button.

Take it easy, dude. You standing with Sullivan doesn't make you better than anyone.

 

[Riptide]

There are only so many sheltered zone start, teammate and opponent combinations and you have to spread them to both EG and JJ especially with the Dumo/Letang injuries. At their #3/#4 salaries, you'd want more than just hope that they could be better than everyone, but Schultz. Instead, we are hoping that others can carry them to not being a black hole.

Hope for the best, but after the Pens had to trade for a babysitter for JJ, I can't imagine experiment #2 of this sort is going to end much differently.

I think you mean 4/5 salaries. At no point is either anywhere close to being paid like a #3D.

 

[Peat]

Here's the thing: does JR even place that much importance in an actual identity?
To him, the identity is not so much about defining a style of play and finding the right fits. The only identity he seems to embrace is nothing more than one in which players can turn their careers around. That's how it's defined from many outside the team itself, even Gudbranson himself said it. It's a philosophy built on hope being the plan. That seems like pretty much the extent to which he defines or values an actual identity. So getting bigger and/or tougher is not really a deviation from any perceived identity in JR's eyes.

And lets be honest, the identity of this team formed in the '16 run that we all praise and want right now was never really sustainable. That identity encompassed much more than adopting speed and quick transition. There was a culture change like we haven't seen in years uprooting the veteran entitlement surrounding the core who were suddenly being challenged by prospects. Playing time was based on merit instead of status. Players brought in via trade or from the minors never felt the pressure to produce but rather "just play" to their strengths. A complete buy-in from everyone. That was our identity and that band broke up. What we have seen since is a collection of individuals preoccupied with playing for their next contracts or desperate to rediscover their lost scoring touch.

JR was never brought in to be a man with a plan. It was meant to be for a short period of time, helping transition the 18 AGMs into the job and in the meantime, make the kind of decisions Shero was unwilling to make. Just tinker here and there. He did that...and continues to do what he's always done to this day. We were all just very fortunate there were a couple of forced detours along the road in '16 and '17.

There's some truth here about the off ice team identity and how it can't really be re-made.

But, accident or no, there was an on ice one in 2015-16. And it was one Rutherford did help build by going out and getting faster players.

And - the kicker - having that on-ice identity is what allowed us to turn players around. Because we could play guys to their strength. And now that the identity is slipping, so too is our ability to turn players around. Rutherford wants to keep shopping in the bargain bin? Rutherford needs a plan.

There's a good chance that you're right and that Rutherford doesn't really have one mind.

And that's why Rutherford and the entire front office should be fired.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I remember him [EG] and Ballard being huge pain-in-the-asses against Sid and Geno when they were on Florida. Hopefully Gudbranson can get back to that.

 

[turd]

Do you think he cares about the banter on a message board?

Those extra days are great to get him some practice with his teammates and learn our system a little before playing. This is probably best case scenario.

I should’ve said unfortunately for ME. Because it’s only been a couple days and I’m already sick of hearing about it. Be it here, or the radio shows, wherever.

 

[Shady Machine]

Kevin Gorman: Erik Gudbranson the guy Penguins want in their corner | TribLIVE.com

You know he's always going to be inside your blueline because the puck will never leave your zone

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I should’ve said unfortunately for ME. Because it’s only been a couple days and I’m already sick of hearing about it. Be it here, or the radio shows, wherever.

Put this thread on ignore. That's what I did with other threads (the Sprong ones in particular). And that's actually why I made this thread since I figured the Gudbranson discussion would leak into all other threads.

 

[Shady Machine]

Not every defenseman needs to be a good offensive player. You can have a physical defensive defenseman on each pairing as long as his partner is a good transition guy like Letang and Schultz are. I don’t know if Pettersson is good enough offensively to work with Gudbranson but Letang and Schultz are good enough for that type of player and that is why Johnson has done well with Schultz. He actually was fairly decent with Pettersson also considering he was playing on his off side and still getting top 4 minutes. Since his first 25 games Johnson has been a +10 player while playing top 4 minutes or more so can’t complain much about that especially when most of that time he was playing on his off side.

Since Johnson did well with Pettersson hopefully Gudbranson can also. Will find out soon enough. I think the added toughness was needed because our players are dropping like flies lately. At 50% retained I would of liked it much more. I know we dealt with much less of this crap when we had Reeves. Until this garage league starts protecting its players this unfortunately is necessary.

Not everyone NEEDS to be a good offensive player, but it's preferable you have more than 2 guys on the blueline that are. MP is average offensively and has shown some potential, but let's not jump the gun here. He's primarily a defensive D that can skate and move the puck fairly well for a guy his size. He's a lesser Dumo with a better shot and slightly better offensive instincts in the zone.

To your 2nd paragraph, please explain how added toughness helps our players not drop like flies. Thanks!

 

[Jacob]

I think every D-man on the roster has to be able to make a pass and support the rush. The days of 1 offensive d-man and 1 "stay-at-home" d-man are over. Teams are full 5 man units now.

It'd be so easy to shut down a team if they had a pairing of one guy that can make a pass or rush the puck and one guy that absolutely cannot.. just force the puck to the guy that can't and close him off and make him to do something stupid.

 

[Gurglesons]

Not everyone NEEDS to be a good offensive player, but it's preferable you have more than 2 guys on the blueline that are. MP is average offensively and has shown some potential, but let's not jump the gun here. He's primarily a defensive D that can skate and move the puck fairly well for a guy his size. He's a lesser Dumo with a better shot and slightly better offensive instincts in the zone.

To your 2nd paragraph, please explain how added toughness helps our players not drop like flies. Thanks!

MP is actually second in rookie scoring for a D last time I checked.

 

[LittleSpoon]

Not everyone NEEDS to be a good offensive player, but it's preferable you have more than 2 guys on the blueline that are. MP is average offensively and has shown some potential, but let's not jump the gun here. He's primarily a defensive D that can skate and move the puck fairly well for a guy his size. He's a lesser Dumo with a better shot and slightly better offensive instincts in the zone.

To your 2nd paragraph, please explain how added toughness helps our players not drop like flies. Thanks!

I will chime in and say that if you listen to Spittin Chiclets, a lot of the players that come on that podcast fully admit that having a tough guy (Reaves, Wilson, Gud) does deter certain things. Obviously nobody is 100% safe, but if you think that wondering if you are going to get your ass beat/run through the boards (getting injured in retaliation) vs no worries at all doesnt play at least a tiny role, then I think you do not really do not know how most of these guys think. I would rather not have enforcers and be more like Tampa Bay personally, but I find it probable that it does help put the stars minds at ease, knowing that they have someone to stick up for them rather than breaking their own hands trying to do it themselves.

To add I say: If you are a player and get crushed, and then your teammate beats the pulp out of said crusher...I bet it feels a bit better. Lowbumps

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

I think every D-man on the roster has to be able to make a pass and support the rush. The days of 1 offensive d-man and 1 "stay-at-home" d-man are over. Teams are full 5 man units now.

It'd be so easy to shut down a team if they had a pairing of one guy that can make a pass or rush the puck and one guy that absolutely cannot.. just force the puck to the guy that can't and close him off and make him to do something stupid.

I debate that.

You can see all the teams with an overblown D haven't won the cup. I refer to Nashville, Tampa, and St. Louis. Washington/Pittsburgh/Chicago all won on overloading a top pairing.

It seems you can have a top pairing D play 30 min a game while you can't do that with a forward line.

 

[Peat]

I debate that.

You can see all the teams with an overblown D haven't won the cup. I refer to Nashville, Tampa, and St. Louis. Washington/Pittsburgh/Chicago all won on overloading a top pairing.

It seems you can have a top pairing D play 30 min a game while you can't do that with a forward line.

Calling for every dman to be able to pass and support the rush isn't calling for a Nashville style blue line though. You don't need to be Ellis; being Cole will do.

What won't do is being worse than Cole.

And we won the Cup with strong 3rd pairings that saw a decent amount of ice time, not just overloading.

 

[Fogel]

I think you mean 4/5 salaries. At no point is either anywhere close to being paid like a #3D.

Using Capfriendly, sorting active defensemen by descending cap hit, EG is #91 @ 4M, JJ is #103 @ 3.25M. With 31 teams, EG is in the #3 bucket and JJ in a #4 bucket. Yes, it is skewed by ELCs and RFAs, but that only makes what EG and JJ earn worse in comparison.

For the Pens, Letang in the #1 bucket (range of 9M - 5.5M), Schultz is #1/#2 (5.5-4.65M), Dumo/Maatta/EG #3 (4.625-3.875), JJ #4 (3.85-2.5). At #186 is 925k, mostly RFA Ds. We have been complaining about how expensive the D is and how they are aren't playing to their pay, I think this simple exercise shows that. Everyone is market rate or above. The Pens only have Riikola, Pettersson, Wideman and Trotman who are relatively cheap (< 1M) and only Pettersson is really cheap compared to his performance and is a regular in the D rotation. Pens need to get better at incorporating cheap D to balance out the glut of middle pair D that have been overpaid for their performance and stop paying market rate for RFAs and UFAs.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I debate that.

You can see all the teams with an overblown D haven't won the cup. I refer to Nashville, Tampa, and St. Louis. Washington/Pittsburgh/Chicago all won on overloading a top pairing.

It seems you can have a top pairing D play 30 min a game while you can't do that with a forward line.

That is more about the fact that when you don't have exceptional forwards, you have to do other creative things to win. Tampa is the only exception to this out of those six teams.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think every D-man on the roster has to be able to make a pass and support the rush. The days of 1 offensive d-man and 1 "stay-at-home" d-man are over. Teams are full 5 man units now.

It'd be so easy to shut down a team if they had a pairing of one guy that can make a pass or rush the puck and one guy that absolutely cannot.. just force the puck to the guy that can't and close him off and make him to do something stupid.

If it was that easy, those guys would have been phased out of the NHL already and any team with a defenseman like that would struggle to do anything in the playoffs.

I think people make way too big of a deal out of defensive/puck moving/offensive defensemen. No, what matters is whether you have a bottom pair that doesn't suck. You can completely win with a defensive bottom pair of average or worse puck movers, as long as those guys aren't bad players and are winning their matchups. What matters is winning your matchups, not what kind of defenseman you are.

The problem with the Penguins defense, specifically Johnson and Gudbranson, is that they have constantly lost their matchups over their careers. The problem isn't Gudbranson and Johnson being a mediocre to bad puck mover, it's that they're not very good players. +/- is a bad stat to judge individual performances of players, but if you're a - player literally all of the time, it shows you're losing your matchups, and you can easily make the jump to "bad" from that.