The defense: Is it purely a personnel problem or does it go beyond that (system/coaching, play style, buy in and synergy from forwards etc.)

[Filthy Dangles]

Lots of talk about retooling the defense, and rightly so.

However, it got me thinking that the Rangers lost to and were largely dominated by a team (who will most likely go on to win the cup) featuring Ekman-Larsson, Kulikov, Mikkola, Montour playing regular and important minutes. I don't think it's talked about enough, the lack of star power and big names on their defense core.

In some hypothetical scenario where you trade the Rangers bottom 4 dmen for those guys, I have a hard time seeing the series play out any differently. The difference is the buyin and playstyle from Florida and how their forwards defend and play and forecheck.

What do you think?

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[McRanger92]

Rangers defense is afraid to/can't perform under forecheck pressure. They also have 1.5 guys in their top 6 who can even complete a pass or skate the puck to safety. Clearly a personnel issue because Laviolette's system speaks for itself.

I'll ask another question, what are Trouba, Lindgren and Miller's "strengths". Its not as easy to answer as it should be

 

[will1066]

Yes

 

[NYR Viper]

I think it's a bit of both, although the Panthers advantage was their forwards could retrieve pucks consistently and would keep the puck low. On top of that, their defense was big and defended the house better than the Rangers d-men as a whole. They also all could, at the very least, move the puck effectively in short distances to their forwards. The Rangers couldn't even achieve that

 

[NickyFotiu]

The defense is fine in the regular season but our forwards and defense are not built well for some harder hitting playoffs. Our forwards did not do a good job helping our defense in the Florida series. They could have helped slow down Florida's forwards so our Dmen were not sitting ducks waiting to get pounded. They also could have gone lower to help them. With that said Florida had a much more physical defense than we did.

Fox is undersized and not a hitter.
Lindy hits but is undersized.
Kam is not a hitter.
Schneider was able to make/take hits and still able to skate.
Trouba was clearly playing on a bad ankle that exposed him.
Gus is not a hitter but was able to take hits better than some.

We had the bigger names on defense but Florida had the more effective players imo.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Lindgren and Trouba.

Replace those 2 and the Rangers probably beat Florida with the big 3 doing next to nothing.

 

[Atax]

That sure is a title.

Got to go:

Lindgren
Trouba

Hope he figures it out:
Miller

Give a chance:
Jones

And then obviously Fox/Schneider stay. We upgrade our defense and this team can win it all.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Lindgren and Trouba.

Replace those 2 and the Rangers probably beat Florida with the big 3 doing next to nothing.

Replace with who?

Jones and Ruwedel? Mikola and Montour? I can't see that at all.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Replace with who?

Jones and Ruwedel? Mikola and Montour? I can't see that at all.

Players who can properly play top 4 minutes.

 

[effen]

Other than Fox and Jones, they can't pass. Other than Miller they can't skate it out.

Gus is fools gold, looks the part, isn't lacking any measurables, is still just kind of there.

It's closer to 5 Joel Edmunsons than people want to admit. They need the the 2 stiffs or one of the stiffs + Miller gone. You can get by with the rest.
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In a non-personnel sense, they need forwards that are harder on the puck on the backcheck so the defense can stand up at the blueline. Backing in to the tops of the circles is a mitigation technique for bad neutral zone ability and is bad overall.

They also need guys to actually hit or at least impede people in the 1-3-1, as they can be in formation but just let guys skate past them. Cosmetic NZ system.

 

[eco's bones]

The defense is fine in the regular season but our forwards and defense are not built well for some harder hitting playoffs. Our forwards did not do a good job helping our defense in the Florida series. They could have helped slow down Florida's forwards so our Dmen were not sitting ducks waiting to get pounded. They also could have gone lower to help them. With that said Florida had a much more physical defense than we did.

Fox is undersized and not a hitter.
Lindy hits but is undersized.
Kam is not a hitter.
Schneider was able to make/take hits and still able to skate.
Trouba was clearly playing on a bad ankle that exposed him.
Gus is not a hitter but was able to take hits better than some.

We had the bigger names on defense but Florida had the more effective players imo.

Trouba said after his ankle injury the one foot never felt right. Fox's knee got banged up in the Washington series. It's not just Florida's physical hitting game.....it's that they pressure the puck all over the ice and that means the D need to be moving the puck both quickly and accurately and that forwards had to find seams/openings to exploit and back off the Florida D and the forwards weren't great there either. Having two D not feeling right for sure did not help.

As much as the Rangers were outplayed in the series that's a group issue of both forwards and defensemen. Just to target the defense seems to me quite unfair. Also this insinuation that the Rangers defense group is somehow a subpar group by league standards is just nonsense. You don't win the league in the regular season or get to the final four in the playoffs with a shit defense or put another way if our defense is really that bad what about the other 30 NHL teams that aren't going to win the Cup either? Are they all bad defenses? How do we qualify what's good and bad then? That's not to say we can't make improvements. Also I don't think it was just a matter of our D moving the puck up to forwards when the forwards could provide them outlets (which again the forwards didn't do a good job of that against Florida) but also controlling the front of our net. The Panthers did a much better job of controlling the front of their net and Bobrovsky hence had a much easier time throughout the series than Igor did.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Trouba said after his ankle injury the one foot never felt right. Fox's knee got banged up in the Washington series. It's not just Florida's physical hitting game.....it's that they pressure the puck all over the ice and that means the D need to be moving the puck both quickly and accurately and that forwards had to find seams/openings to exploit and back off the Florida D and the forwards weren't great there either. Having two D not feeling right for sure did not help.

As much as the Rangers were outplayed in the series that's a group issue of both forwards and defensemen. Just to target the defense seems to me quite unfair. Also this insinuation that the Rangers defense group is somehow a subpar group by league standards is just nonsense. You don't win the league in the regular season or get to the final four in the playoffs with a shit defense or put another way if our defense is really that bad what about the other 30 NHL teams that aren't going to win the Cup either? Are they all bad defenses? How do we qualify what's good and bad then? That's not to say we can't make improvements. Also I don't think it was just a matter of our D moving the puck up to forwards when the forwards could provide them outlets (which again the forwards didn't do a good job of that against Florida) but also controlling the front of our net. The Panthers did a much better job of controlling the front of their net and Bobrovsky hence had a much easier time throughout the series than Igor did.

I think the Rangers defense is better than they showed vs FL but I think the Rangers defense and forwards do have an issue with tight checking hard hitting teams. I do not think that is a secret. I think Drury will try to address that if possible.
In regards to Trouba I try to never judge a guy when he is obviously injured.

 

[Peltz]

It felt like the Rangers gave up the slot in their own end a bunch (and Shesterkin bailed them out most of the time). Florida, in contrast, never really left the slot exposed all series.

Rangers failed to generate because they couldn't get to the center of the ice. And it's not like Florida generated a TON. They just generated an extra goal here or there that made the difference. But those opportunities were dead center in front of the net.

 

[n8]

Feels like a roster building thread topic.

Montour, Forsling, Ekblad are absolutely great d-men at both ends. Montour had 73 points last regular season. Forsling is really slick and killed us in two games. Ekblad is still Ekblad, even though he is mostly an injured Ekblad. Generally more Ekgood than Ekbad. OEL is a former Coyotes star. He's not that player anymore but he can make the passes and can still be dangerous. Mikkola and Kulikov have turned themselves into human meat grinders. Don't discount their blueline.

Where are the Rangers now and where do you want them to be?
I think a healthy Fox can dance around a lot of these forecheckers the way a hobbled Fox cannot. That buys Lindgren more space to make passes he normally can (but couldn't with the added pressure). K'Andre's strength in the regular season was more around transition -> skating out of the zone but Florida neutralized that part of his game too. He needs to be better in those situations. WAY too many failed puck clears by him again, due to added pressure. Schneider will get better. I think it's something Lav needs to run in practice: making plays under pressure. Generally, I want to see Rangers finish their checks more.

 

[Machinehead]

Forsling is a top 15 defenseman and Montour is also a legit 1D.

Not having any kind of #2 and having the bottom fall out after Fox is a big problem. That caliber of player doesn't just fall from the sky so we super can't afford to have holes.

The guys you mentioned aren't stars, but they're all effective NHLers. Lindgren and Trouba are not. Our defense has nothing after Fox in terms of high-end talent and two massive holes.

Yes. there are problems with the forward group. Everyone has problems. Brett Howden has a Cup. Jack Johnson has a Cup. The 2019 Blues were a joke. Not everything about the roster needs to be perfect.

Our defense corps is straight up bad. Even with Fox, I would have it in the bottom ten. That's where any serious mission to get over the hump has to start.

 

[Atax]

Forsling is a top 15 defenseman and Montour is also a legit 1D.

Not having any kind of #2 and having the bottom fall out after Fox is a big problem. That caliber of player doesn't just fall from the sky so we super can't afford to have holes.

The guys you mentioned aren't stars, but they're all effective NHLers. Lindgren and Trouba are not. Our defense has nothing after Fox in terms of high-end talent and two massive holes.

Yes. there are problems with the forward group. Everyone has problems. Brett Howden has a Cup. Jack Johnson has a Cup. The 2019 Blues were a joke. Not everything about the roster needs to be perfect.

Our defense corps is straight up bad. Even with Fox, I would have it in the bottom ten. That's where any serious mission to get over the hump has to start.

But toughness and warrior.

 

[Irishguy42]

Lindgren gonna have career projection like the back half of Girardi's career, which is honestly piss-poor and frightening. Trouba is just mentally making awful decisions at a frequently alarming rate. K'Andre also makes incredible dumb decisions, but less frequently.

It's the personnel more-so than anything else.

 

[Machinehead]

Lindgren gonna have career projection like the back half of Girardi's career, which is honestly piss-poor and frightening.

Trouba is just mentally making awful decisions at a frequently alarming rate.

K'Andre also makes incredible dumb decisions, but less frequently.

If only a guy like that played for the Rangers, and our current GM was in the organization when it was happening. That way, we might know ahead of time!

 

[LokiDog]

I don’t think the personnel is an issue. I do think Fox, while as good as his reputation warrants, is still not an ideal guy to have as your backbone, even though he’s better than some other teams’ backbones. He lacks physical tools that just can’t be substituted. But personally, I think the personnel is fine and we have a combination of a puck watching, soft culture and very poor buy in from forwards. Overall, in my opinion, it’s the same affliction top to bottom and year after year, regardless of the names on the roster or behind the bench: the compete level, the willingness to embrace/initiate contact to make plays, the laissez faire mentality that leads to picked off cross ice passes like Zib to Wheeler in OT, or failed clears because we were weak on the puck or didn’t go off the glass like we should have, etc. I don’t think it’s talent. I don’t think it’s really the coach either. I think it’s a grossly over pampered culture and receipts probably show me saying this every single offseason that I’ve been here.

 

[bleedblue94]

I don’t think the personnel is an issue. I do think Fox, while as good as his reputation warrants, is still not an ideal guy to have as your backbone, even though he’s better than some other teams’ backbones. He lacks physical tools that just can’t be substituted. But personally, I think the personnel is fine and we have a combination of a puck watching, soft culture and very poor buy in from forwards. Overall, in my opinion, it’s the same affliction top to bottom and year after year, regardless of the names on the roster or behind the bench: the compete level, the willingness to embrace/initiate contact to make plays, the laissez faire mentality that leads to picked off cross ice passes like Zib to Wheeler in OT, or failed clears because we were weak on the puck or didn’t go off the glass like we should have, etc. I don’t think it’s talent. I don’t think it’s really the coach either. I think it’s a grossly over pampered culture and receipts probably show me saying this every single offseason that I’ve been here.

I love you man

 

[Atax]

I don’t think the personnel is an issue. I do think Fox, while as good as his reputation warrants, is still not an ideal guy to have as your backbone, even though he’s better than some other teams’ backbones. He lacks physical tools that just can’t be substituted. But personally, I think the personnel is fine and we have a combination of a puck watching, soft culture and very poor buy in from forwards. Overall, in my opinion, it’s the same affliction top to bottom and year after year, regardless of the names on the roster or behind the bench: the compete level, the willingness to embrace/initiate contact to make plays, the laissez faire mentality that leads to picked off cross ice passes like Zib to Wheeler in OT, or failed clears because we were weak on the puck or didn’t go off the glass like we should have, etc. I don’t think it’s talent. I don’t think it’s really the coach either. I think it’s a grossly over pampered culture and receipts probably show me saying this every single offseason that I’ve been here.

Hard disagree with Fox. He's gotten a nastier edge to him as hes played longer. He's one of the best defensemen in hockey. He was our best defensemen with 1 leg and 1 arm. Thats how bad our defense is. Lets get him an actual good partner. Not the remaining parts of Lindgrens body. Thats the biggest point were trying to convey.

I agree with the softness of some of the other players though.

 

[LokiDog]

Hard disagree with Fox. He's gotten a nastier edge to him as hes played longer. He's one of the best defensemen in hockey. He was our best defensemen with 1 leg and 1 arm. Thats how bad our defense is. Lets get him an actual good partner. Not the remaining parts of Lindgrens body. Thats the biggest point were trying to convey.

I agree with the softness of some of the other players though.

That isn’t necessarily a disagreement. I agree Fox is elite and was our best D on one leg. That’s what I meant by “he’s as good as his reputation warrants”. I guess what I mean is - especially on a team that plays soft and lacks overall foot speed, it’s unfortunate that our best player is particularly petite and not overly fleet of foot either. It Fox had Trouba’s size, he’d win the Norris annually, I have almost no doubt. My point was more along the lines of - if your best player is gonna be a D man, you probably either want someone who absolutely devours time and space because of their size, like Hedman or Chara, or someone who absolutely flies and changes the entire complexion of hockey games like Makar… not that Fox isn’t every bit as good as advertised.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Half our d was hobbled, with Lindgren Fox and trouba all hurt. It affected our ability to handle a forecheck and in Fox's case run the pp

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

That isn’t necessarily a disagreement. I agree Fox is elite and was our best D on one leg. That’s what I meant by “he’s as good as his reputation warrants”. I guess what I mean is - especially on a team that plays soft and lacks overall foot speed, it’s unfortunate that our best player is particularly petite and not overly fleet of foot either. It Fox had Trouba’s size, he’d win the Norris annually, I have almost no doubt. My point was more along the lines of - if your best player is gonna be a D man, you probably either want someone who absolutely devours time and space because of their size, like Hedman or Chara, or someone who absolutely flies and changes the entire complexion of hockey games like Makar… not that Fox isn’t every bit as good as advertised.

I dunno about that but I think you'd squeeze a few more out of him if you got him a partner who is objectively bad at everything.


Makar has his warts too. For all the pump he brings offensively, he's been a train wreck in his own end for most of his career (and weirdly so this year where... MacKinnon was actually better when he wasn't out there.)

Aside from that, I hope all is well with you my dude.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Forsling is a top 15 defenseman and Montour is also a legit 1D.

Not having any kind of #2 and having the bottom fall out after Fox is a big problem. That caliber of player doesn't just fall from the sky so we super can't afford to have holes.

The guys you mentioned aren't stars, but they're all effective NHLers. Lindgren and Trouba are not. Our defense has nothing after Fox in terms of high-end talent and two massive holes.

Yes. there are problems with the forward group. Everyone has problems. Brett Howden has a Cup. Jack Johnson has a Cup. The 2019 Blues were a joke. Not everything about the roster needs to be perfect.

Our defense corps is straight up bad. Even with Fox, I would have it in the bottom ten. That's where any serious mission to get over the hump has to start.

Outside of Forsling, not sure i agree with your assessment of Florida dmen.

Montour is a nice player, but he's more of an offensive, puck rushing guy who can eat minutes because of his skating and stamina. He's far from a rock or stalwart back there and not someone who would lead a defense core. The way FLA plays covers up a lot of his mistakes and insulates him. I think calling him a legit #1 is bordering on insanity personally.

And I don't think anyone coming into this season would have thought OEL, Mikkolka nd Kulikov would be playing every day on a Stanley Cup winning team.

OEL was coming off a buyout and had a worse Jfresh WAR% coming into the year than Trouba/Lindgren. Kulikov was a depth dman who was getting scratched by the worst defensive team in the Anamehim ducks not so long ago. Mikkola was an afterthought to everyone on this board and considered to be a depth dman (an okay#6 and perhaps ideally a #7) by other fans.

Obviously the Rangers best dman was injured and that was a huge factor but the point remains, there's an organizational and team factor here. Floridas dmen are not really that much better on paper or in a vacuum, imo.

Panthers apparently just know what dmen to target to get the best out of and fit their system and how their group can mesh with their forwards and how they play. I don't think anything changes if you trade their bottom 4 with ours in some hypothetical scenario.

A peaking Forsling vs a hobbled Fox was a big difference though for sure.