The curious case of Chris Kontos

[alko]

Chris Kontos was mentioned in the playoff thread. I looked to his history and was really surprised.
Mostly with tshi 2 points:

- He decided to join the Canadian National Team in 1991–92.

- When the Tampa Bay Lightning started play in 1992–93, Kontos signed on as a free agent. His surprising 4 goal-performance led the upstart Tampa Bay Lightning to a 7–3 shocker of the Chicago Blackhawks on October 7, 1992, and remains the team record for goals scored in a single game. He scored 27 goals in 66 games, second on the team only to Brian Bradley. He would return to the National Team in 93–94, and helped Canada win a silver medal at the 1994 Olympics. Kontos would never return to the NHL.

Did he said, why he made such moves?

 

[The Panther]

I remember well watching him with the Kings in the '89 playoffs. He actually made it into the line-up for good in the third-to-last game of the 1988-89 season, and then carried on into the playoffs.

From game 79 of the regular season through game 8 of the playoffs, he suddenly scored 11 goals in 10 games (9 of his goals in the playoffs, and all but one of them vs. Edmonton). Previous to this, he had scored only 24 NHL goals in his entire career, going back seven years!

You could say Gretzky and Nicholls helped him out a bit, though. Here's the scoring details of his 11 goals in 10 games in 1989:
-- assisted by Gretzky and Couturier
-- assisted by Robitaille and Prajsler
(playoffs begin):
-- assisted by Nicholls
-- assisted by Nicholls and Gretzky
-- assisted by Kasper and Laidlaw
-- assisted by Nicholls and Duchesne
-- assisted by Nicholls and Gretzky
-- assisted by Gretzky and Krushelnyski
-- assisted by Gretzky and McSorley
-- assisted by Nicholls and Duchesne
-- assisted by Gretzky and DeGray

I remember the night of that first Tampa game, where he scored 4. He got hot for a couple of months and appeared to be a 50-goal scorer, but by December or so he was back to being a chump.

I don't know much about the guy, but my impression was that he just wasn't that into the NHL. Probably only got committed to Tampa because that was when the big money started coming in.

 

[MS]

As I said in the other thread, Kontos is the definitive streak scorer in NHL history. Every couple years he would explode with a huge month where he was absolutely on fire, and then would turn back into a pumpkin who did nothing while being a defensive liability. Think Ray Sheppard only with far more bad than good.

16 points in a 21 game stretch for Pittsburgh in 1986-87.
12 points in 6 games for LA in 1987-88.
11 goals in 11 games for LA in 1988-89.
18 goals in 18 games for TB in 1992-93.

21 points in 11 games in the 1991 IHL playoffs.

As noted above, Gretzky/Lemieux did help with some of these stints, and you do wonder if he could have put up some 60-70 point seasons if he would have found a coach who really believed in him and didn't cut him as soon as he had a few bad games where he wasn't scoring.

As for the Canadian National Team stints, it was a common thing for guys during the 1980s and early 1990s who were at a career crossroads or in a contract dispute. Kontos didn't 'choose' to go the the National Team program in 1993-94, he went there because there were no NHL offers, and it was a more high-profile way to try and showcase yourself than playing in the IHL.

 

[NyQuil]

A similar guy in a similar situation IMO is Bob Kudelski, who also went to an expansion franchise after a fairly pedestrian career.

With Ottawa, he scored 47 goals in 90 games across two seasons.

He was traded to the Panthers in the midst of his second season with the Senators, and was out of the league within a couple of years.

 

[MS]

A similar guy in a similar situation IMO is Bob Kudelski, who also went to an expansion franchise after a fairly pedestrian career.

With Ottawa, he scored 47 goals in 90 games across two seasons.

He was traded to the Panthers in the midst of his second season with the Senators, and was out of the league within a couple of years.

Kudelski is a weird one because he did a reverse Bobby Carpenter and morphed from this 20-goal 3rd line/PK guy he’d been for years in LA into this one-dimensional PP specialist sniper once traded to Ottawa.

 

[NyQuil]

Kudelski is a weird one because he did a reverse Bobby Carpenter and morphed from this 20-goal 3rd line/PK guy he’d been for years in LA into this one-dimensional PP specialist sniper once traded to Ottawa.

It certainly says something about scoring in the league at the time and the kinds of opportunities that expansion offered in terms of buffing scoring statistics.

It's one of the reasons why I've really soured on these HHoF-worthy absolute milestones in terms of goals and points.

 

[MS]

It certainly says something about scoring in the league at the time and the kinds of opportunities that expansion offered in terms of buffing scoring statistics.

There are a few things you can take away from these sorts of examples, not necessarily all pulling the same direction :

1) somebody has to score on bad teams and expansion teams. No matter how bad the team is, somebody has to play 19-20 minutes on a top line and get top-unit PP time, and when that happens, it's basically impossible not to score 50 or so points. My favourite example, although not from an expansion team, is the Arnason-Bell-Calder line in Chicago in the mid-2000s, who were are pretty fringe NHLers and quickly out of the league but scored 50 points because somebody had to.

2) conversely, NHL teams are horrible for typecasting guys into a certain role early in their careers and being completely inflexible about changing those opinions. But then expansion happens, and some of these guys get a shot in different roles by default. We saw that again with the Vegas expansion, where 4th line speedster William Karlsson suddenly scores 43 goals and 6th defender Nate Schmidt is magically instantly a top-15 defender in the NHL. Conversely, some players continue on in top-6 minutes based on reputation long after they should have dropped far down lineups - and due to (1) their numbers will continue to look 'ok' justifying these poor decisions from coaches.

3) production is inexorably tied to icetime and opportunity. 'Breakouts' are far less often actual breakouts caused by improvement than they are just a change in opportunity.

It's one of the reasons why I've really soured on these HHoF-worthy absolute milestones in terms of goals and points.

Yeah, I hate this too. I mean, statistical numbers aren't worthless (on either a seasonal or career basis) but they aren't necessarily a measure for 'greatness' at all. Especially given differences in levels of scoring over time.

When I'm trying to evaulate a player's HHOF-worthiness, I try to think of it as :

- 25% career value. And yeah, these are basically going to be just numbers.
- 25% peak value. Awards, top-10 finishes, etc.
- 25% team contribution. Cups, playoff success, international success.
- 25% 'greatness' or intangibles. Did the player change the game? Was he someone fans bought tickets to see? Was he a defining player in the history of a franchise, or of the hockey history in his own country? Is he someone fans will still be talking about 50 years from now?

4/4 of those components at an elite, obvious HHOF level = first-ballot HHOFer
3/4 = probably solid HHOFer
2/4 = borderline
1/4 = Nope!

Dave Andreychuk would be a 1/4 guy and does not belong in the HHOF.

 

[MS]

2) conversely, NHL teams are horrible for typecasting guys into a certain role early in their careers and being completely inflexible about changing those opinions. But then expansion happens, and some of these guys get a shot in different roles by default. We saw that again with the Vegas expansion, where 4th line speedster William Karlsson suddenly scores 43 goals and 6th defender Nate Schmidt is magically instantly a top-15 defender in the NHL. Conversely, some players continue on in top-6 minutes based on reputation long after they should have dropped far down lineups - and due to (1) their numbers will continue to look 'ok' justifying these poor decisions from coaches.

3) production is inexorably tied to icetime and opportunity. 'Breakouts' are far less often actual breakouts caused by improvement than they are just a change in opportunity.

Quoting myself and continuing on here, my favourite example of this is Brian Bradley, who actually ties into this thread quite nicely as the linemate of Kontos in TB in 1992-93.

Conventional wisdom would have it that Bradley was some 40-point journeyman who had a 'shocking' breakout on the expansion Lightning and took his game to unexpected new heights. Nope.

Brian Bradley was 3rd on the Canucks in ES scoring in 88-89 and would have been 2nd if he didn't miss 10 games, despite being 6th-8th in overall forward icetime (you can figure this out by looking at GF/GA numbers).

In 89-90, Bradley was 1st on the team with 39 ES points despite missing 15 games. The 2nd place guy had 32. If he doesn't get hurt, he scores ~50 ES points and is first on the team by ~20 points. He was the best offensive contributor in the team by a country mile, but got no PP time. And nobody realized it and he was treated like a spare part.

In 90-91, same thing. He was on pace for ~45 ES points which would have again led the team at the point where the Canucks basically just gave him away.

Like, the guy was literally the best ES performer on the Vancouver Canucks for 3 straight years but was given 2nd-3rd line tweener minutes and little PP time. And then dumped.

Then he goes to TB and gets PP time and 'poof!' - magically he's a star. But he only scored 50 ES points that year, which is basically exactly what he was scoring in Vancouver. The only thing that happened in TB was that he had a bunch of PP points tossed in on top of what he was already doing in Vancouver without PP time.

Basically the guy should have been a star in Vancouver but kept getting passed over for washed-up guys with pedigree like Dan Quinn and Barry Pederson, a high-profile Russian signing in Larionov, and a younger prospect in Dave Capuano. Plus the team kept shoving PP time down the throats of finished guys like Skriko and Tanti where Bradley could have played in the top unit.

Knowing what we know now, that he'd break out with a bigger role should have been completely predictable.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Quoting myself and continuing on here, my favourite example of this is Brian Bradley, who actually ties into this thread quite nicely as the linemate of Kontos in TB in 1992-93.

Conventional wisdom would have it that Bradley was some 40-point journeyman who had a 'shocking' breakout on the expansion Lightning and took his game to unexpected new heights. Nope.

Brian Bradley was 3rd on the Canucks in ES scoring in 88-89 and would have been 2nd if he didn't miss 10 games, despite being 6th-8th in overall forward icetime (you can figure this out by looking at GF/GA numbers).

In 89-90, Bradley was 1st on the team with 39 ES points despite missing 15 games. The 2nd place guy had 32. If he doesn't get hurt, he scores ~50 ES points and is first on the team by ~20 points. He was the best offensive contributor in the team by a country mile, but got no PP time. And nobody realized it and he was treated like a spare part.

In 90-91, same thing. He was on pace for ~45 ES points which would have again led the team at the point where the Canucks basically just gave him away.

Like, the guy was literally the best ES performer on the Vancouver Canucks for 3 straight years but was given 2nd-3rd line tweener minutes and little PP time. And then dumped.

Then he goes to TB and gets PP time and 'poof!' - magically he's a star. But he only scored 50 ES points that year, which is basically exactly what he was scoring in Vancouver. The only thing that happened in TB was that he had a bunch of PP points tossed in on top of what he was already doing in Vancouver without PP time.

Basically the guy should have been a star in Vancouver but kept getting passed over for washed-up guys with pedigree like Dan Quinn and Barry Pederson, a high-profile Russian signing in Larionov, and a younger prospect in Dave Capuano. Plus the team kept shoving PP time down the throats of finished guys like Skriko and Tanti where Bradley could have played in the top unit.

Knowing what we know now, that he'd break out with a bigger role should have been completely predictable.

another way of looking at brian bradley is he was effectively replaced in vancouver by a far better version of himself: cliff ronning

there's probably an alternate universe where ronning finishes out the '91 season as a tweener in st louis and is taken by sj in the expansion draft and puts up a string of point/game seasons while vancouver rolls on with brian bradley in a carousel of top centers with larionov/young nedved/fergus/linden out of position/craven out of position and they never accomplish anything.

 

[MS]

another way of looking at brian bradley is he was effectively replaced in vancouver by a far better version of himself: cliff ronning

there's probably an alternate universe where ronning finishes out the '91 season as a tweener in st louis and is taken by sj in the expansion draft and puts up a string of point/game seasons while vancouver rolls on with brian bradley in a carousel of top centers with larionov/young nedved/fergus/linden out of position/craven out of position and they never accomplish anything.

Ha, it's funny you posted this because my last post was basically a cut/paste of a post I made a few years ago on the Canucks board (with a few small changes) because I didn't feel like typing the whole thing out again, and the next post I made after that is this :

On Bradley - the only good thing was that we picked up a nearly identical player from a nearly identical situation in St. Louis in Cliff Ronning later that year who was also statistically ready to break out ... and this time actually gave the player the opportunity.

Disagree that Ronning was 'far better' than Bradley, though. I think they were on roughly the same level. One topped out at 86-79-64 points in his three best seasons, the other at 85-71-68. At pretty much exactly the same time. Injuries just ended Bradley's career several years sooner.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Disagree that Ronning was 'far better' than Bradley, though. I think they were on roughly the same level. One topped out at 86-79-64 points in his three best seasons, the other at 85-71-68. At pretty much exactly the same time. Injuries just ended Bradley's career several years sooner.

admittedly i am extremely high on ronning in a way that borders on maybe not being able to view him rationally but my sense is bradley was on the soft and unassertive side. ronning wasn’t theo fleury but he was a go-getter who made things happen. i remember that 91 series where he went point for point against gretzky he was such a breath of fresh air. like, who is this little lightning bug play pusher and why had we never heard of him before? he also was clutch af.

i also generally prefer a guy who scores on a 100 point division leading team to a guy who scores the same or even slightly more points on an expansion bottom feeder. as evidenced by the older ronning on nashville and minnesota, someone’s gotta score those points

i also am pretty content with getting babych in the long run from trading bradley. and actually peak kurvers was a great return, one year from being disastrously traded for the niedermayer pick, only two years after his nj career year.

 

[Vector]

Yeah, I wouldn’t say he was “dumped”. That’s a pretty fair trade of an underutilized but possible breakout player for a highly valued offensive guy. Then eventually flipping Kurvers for Babych is great too.

 

[The Panther]

A similar guy in a similar situation IMO is Bob Kudelski, who also went to an expansion franchise after a fairly pedestrian career.

Kudelski is another guy who "Gretzky-ed" his way to some NHL goals. Example, 1989-90:
1st goal
2nd goal - assisted by Gretzky
3rd goal - assisted by Gretzky
4th goal - assisted by Gretzky
5th goal - assisted by Gretzky
6th goal - assisted by Gretzky
7th goal - assisted by Gretzky
8th goal - assisted by Gretzky
9th goal
10th goal - assisted by Gretzky
11th goal - assisted by Gretzky
12th goal - assisted by Gretzky
13th goal
14th goal - assisted by Gretzky
15th goal
16th goal - assisted by Gretzky
17th goal - assisted by Gretzky

 

[Herby]

Kudelski is another guy who "Gretzky-ed" his way to some NHL goals. Example, 1989-90:
1st goal
2nd goal - assisted by Gretzky
3rd goal - assisted by Gretzky
4th goal - assisted by Gretzky
5th goal - assisted by Gretzky
6th goal - assisted by Gretzky
7th goal - assisted by Gretzky
8th goal - assisted by Gretzky
9th goal
10th goal - assisted by Gretzky
11th goal - assisted by Gretzky
12th goal - assisted by Gretzky
13th goal
14th goal - assisted by Gretzky
15th goal
16th goal - assisted by Gretzky
17th goal - assisted by Gretzky

Kudelski could finish, he couldn't really do anything else but he could score goals. He had some success after the Kings traded him to Ottawa.

 

[Sanf]

Chris Kontos was mentioned in the playoff thread. I looked to his history and was really surprised.
Mostly with tshi 2 points:

- He decided to join the Canadian National Team in 1991–92.

- When the Tampa Bay Lightning started play in 1992–93, Kontos signed on as a free agent. His surprising 4 goal-performance led the upstart Tampa Bay Lightning to a 7–3 shocker of the Chicago Blackhawks on October 7, 1992, and remains the team record for goals scored in a single game. He scored 27 goals in 66 games, second on the team only to Brian Bradley. He would return to the National Team in 93–94, and helped Canada win a silver medal at the 1994 Olympics. Kontos would never return to the NHL.

Did he said, why he made such moves?

Like MS said he overvalued himself few times in his career. No GM was ready to pay him for what he wanted. He was available in 1993 expansion draft, but for example Jack Ferreira said that Mighty Ducks has no interest on him.

I remember Don Cherry being big fan of him. Remember reading Don Cherry ranting about Sharks signing Igor Larionov when Chris Kontos would have been available.

He did infact sort of return to NHL. He signed with Panthers in summer of 1995, but never played game in the parent club.