The Core and its flaw, imo.

[Al14]

Is blaming the fans the dumbest thing ever posted here?

Yep, the first round exits and not qualifying for the playoffs, are all OUR FAULT as fans.

We have made this team soft as melted butter in 90° weather !!! Shame on Shanahan for allowing this to happen. That's why I believe he is an NHL plant to keep our Leafs just pretenders and NOT contenders !!!

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

it's amazing how getting the worst goaltending in the league shows how the real problem was actually toughness

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

A lot of the optimists will lambast you, and admittedly I didn’t read all of your OP in detail, but I’ve long said that with this core (particularly Marner, Rielly, Nylander, Tavares) and this mentally fragile goaltending (first Freddie and now Campbell), this team goes nowhere when it really matters.

I don’t care if this team breaks regular season point records and multiple guys are in top 10 in points for position while the refs’ whistles are active and the ice is spacious. That superficial stat-hounding is of little consequence to me in the big picture. I care about one phase and it’s the the one where I don’t believe they have the gumption to succeed in the short-mid term future. IMO they act like they have plenty of time left in their own careers to win, are too self-absorbed, and don’t have it in them to compete hard enough to push through real adversity on the ice and really put the team on their backs to carry it to victory.

But hey, I’m sure they’ll waste more assets on the exercise in futility of insulating the core with some pieces ineffective pieces like a seasonal scoring LW, an offensive D who lacks intangibles for the 2nd pair, and maybe some other tertiary non-impact pieces that won’t address the real issues lying at the core. So at least the deadline and rest of the reg season will be super fun and will build up expectations further.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I disagree with the “one of the biggest contenders”. Unless you are including the top 1/3rd of the league under the same qualification. Tampa, Florida, and Carolina would be the three “biggest contenders” in my book. No shot this team the way it is constructed goes to the finals.

Top 7 in points, points %, wins, win %, RW, RW %, ROW, ROW %, CF%, FF%, SF%, GF, xGF, xGA, GF %, xGF%, SCF %, HDCF %, PP, PK, faceoffs, etc, even after going through our roughest stretch of the season.

If you were a fan of Tampa, Florida, or Carolina instead, you'd be identifying just as many "issues" with them - especially if you had Toronto-style media scrambling for false, tired narratives to rile up the fanbase.

This is a very good team, and has about as good a shot as pretty much any team of going to the finals and winning.

 

[hotpaws]

it's amazing how getting the worst goaltending in the league shows how the real problem was actually toughness

who do we blame for acquiring these goalies ?

 

[Dreakmur]

Top 7 in points, points %, wins, win %, RW, RW %, ROW, ROW %, CF%, FF%, SF%, GF, xGF, xGA, GF %, xGF%, SCF %, HDCF %, PP, PK, faceoffs, etc, even after going through our roughest stretch of the season.

If you were a fan of Tampa, Florida, or Carolina instead, you'd be identifying just as many "issues" with them - especially if you had Toronto-style media scrambling for false, tired narratives to rile up the fanbase.

This is a very good team, and has about as good a shot as pretty much any team of going to the finals and winning.

We won expected cups the last two seasons, and the only reason we think they lost to terrible teams like Columbus and Montreal is because the media keeps scrambling for false narratives….

 

[TML Dynasty]

And whatever small issues we may have, Matthews/Marner breaking their hands on somebody's face wouldn't solve a single one of them - just create more.

I definitely don't advocate for them fighting but getting involved in the scrums and pushbacks I would love to see

 

[mclaren55]

Top 7 in points, points %, wins, win %, RW, RW %, ROW, ROW %, CF%, FF%, SF%, GF, xGF, xGA, GF %, xGF%, SCF %, HDCF %, PP, PK, faceoffs, etc, even after going through our roughest stretch of the season.

If you were a fan of Tampa, Florida, or Carolina instead, you'd be identifying just as many "issues" with them - especially if you had Toronto-style media scrambling for false, tired narratives to rile up the fanbase.

This is a very good team, and has about as good a shot as pretty much any team of going to the finals and winning.

So pretty much the top third of the league is a big contender in your books. "Top 7" certainly isn't top 3. I agree though, the Leafs are a very good team, just not top contenders.

 

[Leafs87]

To me it’s the bottom six. With a largely soft offensive top six, the bottom six should be tough to play against and the leafs bottom six is not that at all. This skill only team will have a very hard time in the playoffs.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Da core problem with most of CORE members is courage to fight for WINS in playoff hockey .. in each players case it is a different dynamic but collectively not enough desperation in their games to do whatever it takes to WIN .. some of guys have da WANT but lack da core strength and some have da strength but lack da WILL to WIN .. overall it likely will never happen with this CORE .. da guy with best chance to carry team on his back is Matty .. although he really has no history of big game WINS in his life so he has nothing to fall back on BUT he has all da capabilities to do it .. and sometimes a guy like him just decides enough is enough and finds da courage to carry a team .. Wily is next closest as he has almost all da capabilities too .. if if if it occurs it will be those 2 guys who get it done

 

[Subway Schenn]

JT (at 11M) is putting us in a tough spot. He needs to find his game - still PPG but can definitely make more of an impact.

Auston has the potential to go beast mode in the playoffs. I do agree that there needs to be some sort of pushback. You have him clicking along with some combination of Willy, Mitch, JT and of course Campbell.. that's a Cup.

Think we'll need to get another driver on D too, especially with Muzz up in the air.

 

[Dreakmur]

To me it’s the bottom six. With a largely soft offensive top six, the bottom six should be tough to play against and the leafs bottom six is not that at all. This skill only team will have a very hard time in the playoffs.

So the problem is that the bottom 6, that gets paid about 8 million dollars, doesn’t make up for the flaws of the top 6, that gets pays about 45 million dollars?

 

[Eternal Leaf]

It's a valid criticism and becomes noticeable in the playoffs.

On top of grit, they also don't have a good sense of understanding momentum. Spezza and Simmonds are the only ones who get that part of the game where a big hit/fight can swing momentum. Unfortunately, they're too far down the lineup to have a substantial impact.

Although, I wouldn't say it's an issue in the regular season because their skill overwhelms most teams. For example, this slump is more about poor goaltending and defensive lapses than grit or physicality.

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

Is blaming the fans the dumbest thing ever posted here?

Not even close, which is kinda alarming....

 

[Dekes For Days]

We won expected cups the last two seasons

Again, not sure what an "expected cup" is, or where you got that idea. Seems you're not really understanding what these "expected" metrics are about.

and the only reason we think they lost to terrible teams like Columbus and Montreal is because the media keeps scrambling for false narratives

No, previous versions of this team did lose to tied-in-points-with-us-and-best-defensive-team-in-the-league Columbus and cup-finalist Montreal in the maximum number of games while missing key players, but the media has certainly played a significant part in propagating reasons for those losses that are false. And as we can see by this thread, it's been eaten up by some fans.

I definitely don't advocate for them fighting but getting involved in the scrums and pushbacks I would love to see

We've seen them pushback and get involved in scrums though. The only thing we haven't really seen is them throwing punches, which we shouldn't want to see. It wouldn't do anything other than put our best players at risk of injury.

So pretty much the top third of the league is a big contender in your books. "Top 7" certainly isn't top 3. I agree though, the Leafs are a very good team, just not top contenders.

I mean, top 7 isn't top 3, but it's also not the top third of the league, and that's a heck of a lot of things to be somewhere between #1 and #7 in. This is also directly after a rough patch - we are or have been top-5 in a lot of them for a large portion of the season. I'm not sure why you think only 3 teams have a legitimate shot at the cup.

 

[Mess]

Top 7 in points, points %, wins, win %, RW, RW %, ROW, ROW %, CF%, FF%, SF%, GF, xGF, xGA, GF %, xGF%, SCF %, HDCF %, PP, PK, faceoffs, etc, even after going through our roughest stretch of the season.

If you were a fan of Tampa, Florida, or Carolina instead, you'd be identifying just as many "issues" with them - especially if you had Toronto-style media scrambling for false, tired narratives to rile up the fanbase.

This is a very good team, and has about as good a shot as pretty much any team of going to the finals and winning.

Wasn't this the same song you were singing against CBJ and Montreal the past 2 playoffs because the melody sounds awfully familiar?

Columbus was the 3rd lowest (180 GF) scoring team in the league entering the playoffs, and Leafs the 3rd highest (238 GF) & and Montreal was ranked #18 and last entering the playoffs (wouldn't even have qualified for the playoffs in a normal season) with the Leafs finishing with + 11 wins and 18 points better in the standings.

How much did your impressive spreadsheet stats help the Leafs advance in the playoffs those years, when the Leafs "on paper" were far better than their opponents in almost every category (apparently irrelevant to success) stat you listed above?

Have you come to some conclusion yet as to why your regular season paper "expected stats" are nontransferable into playoff wins, or is this still some unsolvable mystery, or we still down to blaming the media, the fans and the opposition goalie for making unexpected saves?

So while you were singing your old song, Montreal and their fans and the Band were drowning you out singing " Na Na Na Na Hey Hey-ey Goodbye", and we as Leafs fans were walking away embarrassed and disappointed by another early exit where the stats didn't save us, even as the heavy favourites, and left wondering what went wrong this time.

 

[ACC1224]

Not even close, which is kinda alarming....

This thread then!

 

[justloveleafs]

Core is fine. We have the same problem Tampa had. The rest of the team gets bullied by the playoff depth of other teams. If Matthews and Marner have to do all the scoring and be the most grittiest guys (Matthews) we already lost.

We need players to wear the opponent down when the big 4 are on the bench. That's it. (And goaltending maybe ).

It's not a cap issue. 2 of our big 4 can compete with each other for the selke as well people don't understand the advantage we have with these guys over the boring parity riddled NHL Management for whatever reason tries to fill the bottom 6 with "lite" versions of the core 4. Guys like Mik who wish they were high flying in the top 6 and Engvall doing spin backs and stick handling east-west (with zero puck protection, you or me can go poke that thing off his stick) like he's Nylander.

Until they fill the bottom 6 with the right "type" we're going no where. Core 4 is being wasted.

I don't have a love button, but I had to reply and say this is a very solid post. We need guys to wear the other team down, when the big four are on the bench. Well put.

I will say Liljegren, to my slightly prejudiced eye, is developing into one such player, he is big, fast and has a bit of a bite developing, I want to see more of it, I am fanatical believer in making the other work their ass off.

Another excellent way of wearing out teams is more difficult and that is making defenders chase you all over the ice. Washington wore us right out by doing that in a very close series until they just exhausted us.

 

[GoonieFace]

It’s sad that after 5 years of this, people still find ways to defend this team and think things are going to change

 

[daethfromabove1979]

They care so deeply apparently but don't stick up for eachother and haven't for years no matter who is brought in. Spezza is one of the few who shows push-back. Not willing to go to war in the playoffs and when things are looking down for them, they become fragile and fold.
Prove me wrong this year and I'll gladly eat my words

This team is just straight up SOFT, and I'm sure they care but it certainly doesn't look like it, the last three games against Montreal last year was an absolute disgrace in effort. Spezza seems to be the only guy who gives a f***. Leafs are an excellent regular season team but not built for the playoffs. They won't prove you wrong.

 

[Rude Dog]

I think the problem isn't with Mathews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly. I think it's with the third and fourth line and bottom pairing D. Those are the areas you can supplement toughness. For example, I really struggle with a guy like Mikey. I enjoy watching him fly around the ice, but when push comes to shove, he is a no show. Similar to Engval. A 24 year old Simmonds would be perfect, not the version we are getting. I would prefer playing young players who are dying to get or stay in the league as my fourth line. Not guys on the tail end of their career who have made their money. They need an energy line (although Spezza tries). Would also prefer at least two stay at home physical D's who can intimidate physically. But they need to be able to skate.

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

JT (at 11M) is putting us in a tough spot. He needs to find his game - still PPG but can definitely make more of an impact.

Auston has the potential to go beast mode in the playoffs. I do agree that there needs to be some sort of pushback. You have him clicking along with some combination of Willy, Mitch, JT and of course Campbell.. that's a Cup.

Think we'll need to get another driver on D too, especially with Muzz up in the air.

For me it’s not just the production, I personally feel he’s not an influential leader and ability to ensure accountability.

I also believe a lot of the lack of accountability rests with mgmt and Keefe. During that awful Amazon series, Keefe seemed and all but said he was lost on how to get these guys to give a shit and battle through adversity. He just seems to have no clue how to motivate these guys to perform when it matters.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Posted this a while back:

From mapleleafhotstove - I would add in the first game JT went back to play his former team. No effort, no respect:

We need no reminder of the Toronto Maple Leafs’ recent history (recent as in just the last year and a half) in these “it’d sure be embarrassing if they lost!” games, but I guess we’ll do it briefly anyway because game previews require us to write words in them:

• The David Ayres game (which was flaunted by the Canes organization as a lovely cherry-on-top of the Leafs‘ shit sundae on Monday)
• The time when the Leafs led 3-0 in Game 3 vs. CBJ with a chance to take a stranglehold over the series, lost 4-3 in OT, and nearly lost the series in four after a horrible Game 4 performance in which they staged a miraculous 3-0 comeback at the end, only to get shut out in a series-deciding Game 5
• The time when the Leafs were leading 5-1 against Ottawa at home and lost 6-5 in overtime
• The time when the Leafs went into Vancouver as the Canucks were returning from a Covid outbreak that ravaged the team for over three weeks and lost both games
• The time when the Leafs led 3-1 in the series against the Habs and somehow lost three in a row including another shutout loss (basically) in a series-deciding game
• Literally four days ago when the Leafs lost 7-1 to the Wilkes-Barre Penguins

and another poster at the time added:

Also missing Kaskisuo's first NHL game, and the team let him get shelled.

Also missing leading Boston 3 games to 2 in 2019, and then not showing up in either of the next two games.

Also missing having a lead over Boston in 2018 heading into the third period of Game 7, and losing.


It's not JUST losing, it's the way they lose with no heart, no fight, no push-back. "Too easy to play against" - we here it from the Leaf players themselves annually, and yet some posters here just will not have it. No spreadsheet can capture that

 

[TheBigFour]

wow another original thread...

 

[Mickey Marner]

I've come to terms with the fact that we're going to keep spending half our cap on four forwards even if I think it's a stupid idea. Might as well make the most of Muzzin's misfortune and go for one last push over the next two years. If it doesn't work a 16/34/88 firesale is good way to restock the cupboards.