The Ballard Era and The Shanaplan

[Stephen]

A topic for the older Leafs fans on these boards who might be able to provide some historical perspective.

Watching the recent Ballard documentary, I was kind of surprised how close a lot of the interviewees felt the late 70s Leafs were to being a serious Cup contender had Punch Imlach not been brought back after 1978, destroying the Sittler-McDonald era core, brain draining young GM Jim Gregory and modern innovator Roger Nielsen in the process.

As someone who would have been growing up around this time cheering for the Leafs, I wonder how much of that nuclear fallout shaped the philosophy of a Brendan Shanahan. Perhaps the Shanaplan sticking to the core, putting trust in the GM and coach time and again is this organization's way of doing it over and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater or going "old school" for the sake of it. Does anyone else see some parallels?

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[Gary Nylund]

A topic for the older Leafs fans on these boards who might be able to provide some historical perspective.

Watching the recent Ballard documentary, I was kind of surprised how close a lot of the interviewees felt the late 70s Leafs were to being a serious Cup contender had Punch Imlach not been brought back after 1978, destroying the Sittler-McDonald era core, brain draining young GM Jim Gregory and modern innovator Roger Nielsen in the process.

As someone who would have been growing up around this time cheering for the Leafs, I wonder how much of that nuclear fallout shaped the philosophy of a Brendan Shanahan. Perhaps the Shanaplan sticking to the core, putting trust in the GM and coach time and again is this organization's way of doing it over and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater or going "old school" for the sake of it. Does anyone else see some parallels?

I doubt what went on there had any influence on Shanahan. And as far as the Leafs back then being a serious cup contender, they weren't and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. MTL was super elite, they just beat the Leafs 4-0 in the playoffs and there was no reasonable path for the Leafs to improve enough to close the gap between them and MTL (which was a massive gap). Yes the Leafs upset NYI in the playoffs but the key word there is upset, NYI was obviously a team on the rise, on their way to being a serious contender (unlike the Leafs) so while it is true that the Leafs were a good team, they were still well short of the top tier.

 

[Stephen]

I was surprised to hear people talk about the Leafs in the documentary like if they kept the band together they could have won. Like you said they weren’t getting past the Habs and the Islanders were on the horizon. By 1979 Sittler was close to 30 and it didn’t look like his best hockey was ahead of him in the early 80s. But the way the talking heads were talking about that team perhaps there was the sense they pulled the plug prematurely?

 

[notDatsyuk]

I doubt what went on there had any influence on Shanahan. And as far as the Leafs back then being a serious cup contender, they weren't and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. MTL was super elite, they just beat the Leafs 4-0 in the playoffs and there was no reasonable path for the Leafs to improve enough to close the gap between them and MTL (which was a massive gap). Yes the Leafs upset NYI in the playoffs but the key word there is upset, NYI was obviously a team on the rise, on their way to being a serious contender (unlike the Leafs) so while it is true that the Leafs were a good team, they were still well short of the top tier.

I don't think they were a contender, but they had a good core, and probably could have been a contender with proper ownership and management.

 

[hotpaws]

This ''believe in the core'' from Shanny and Dubie is a crock of shit . They'd love to change the core but the only one they'd want and need to be move is Tavares and no one's going to give you anything more than scraps/dumps and that's if they can find someone willing to take him without retaining salary . There's also getting him to waive and how many teams will he be willing to go too .

as far as Shanny believing in Dubie . it might cost him his job if he admitted he f***ed up hiring him and sticking with him this long but you haven't heard a peep out of him this season so it looks like Shanny is trying to distance himself from the Dubester to keep employed if he needs to dump him

 

[Buds17]

I was surprised to hear people talk about the Leafs in the documentary like if they kept the band together they could have won. Like you said they weren’t getting past the Habs and the Islanders were on the horizon. By 1979 Sittler was close to 30 and it didn’t look like his best hockey was ahead of him in the early 80s. But the way the talking heads were talking about that team perhaps there was the sense they pulled the plug prematurely?

I imagine that the manner in which "the plug was pulled" became a tough pill to swallow. Ballard seemed to be very much about hiring his friends/those who thought like him (Imlach also being anti-union), cutting costs/payroll (losing Keon in part by dismissing the rival WHA as competition) and upsetting/attempting to goad Sittler into waiving his no trade clause by trading away McDonald.

Shanahan is obviously neither team owner nor involved in the day-to-day to such a destructive extent.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I was surprised to hear people talk about the Leafs in the documentary like if they kept the band together they could have won. Like you said they weren’t getting past the Habs and the Islanders were on the horizon. By 1979 Sittler was close to 30 and it didn’t look like his best hockey was ahead of him in the early 80s. But the way the talking heads were talking about that team perhaps there was the sense they pulled the plug prematurely?

I don't think it was that they pulled the plug, more like they just didn't know what the hell they were doing. I remember after beating NYI they made a couple of trades in the summer for Dave Hutchinson who was basically useless, and Dave Burrows who was good but the young talent they gave up included Carlyle who was very good for them in the playoffs IIRC and later won the Norris. I remember there was an article in the Globe saying that the Leafs just traded their way into the cup finals so I guess the trades looked good to some people at the time but in retrospect, they weren't and it was all downhill from there.

I don't think they were a contender, but they had a good core, and probably could have been a contender with proper ownership and management.

Hard to see them ever being good enough to challenge MTL and later NYI, I mean those teams were both dynasties, among the best teams in NHL history.

 

[Leafs87]

The Leafs going back to the playoffs year after year with a failed formula definitely raises some questions around the senior leadership. It’s like this team doesn’t want to play old school proven tough physical hockey in the playoffs. They stray so far away from it. Never mind scrubbing the team after the repeated losses, but at least give an inch. There was no work done towards what has been the biggest gap towards success in this team for years now.

 

[crump]

Didn’t Shanny fight some older player that wouldn’t give him an autograph when he was a kid? Definitely holds a grudge, but not sure it has anything to do with the sting of Ballard and Imlach. Lol. I mean you just have to have pretty basic human decency to do better.

Like others said. Leafs had a chance as any other good team, but getting by Habs, was tough. They had a good core, sure, and anything can happen in a 7 game series, but needed a better second line (an aging Ellis, love him but I’ll never forget when a Habs goalie was out of the net, tripped half way to the blue line, nothing between Ellis and an open net, but Ellis tripped over the discarded goalie stick) and an elite defensive forward (Jimmy Jones doesn’t count) or a playoff game breaker like Nystrom. If they kept Carlyle they might have been in a better on defense as well. Palmateer was a gambler, he could be outstanding then crap the next shot. He wasn’t Parent, Dryden, Smith, Cheevers Fuhr calibre.

With better luck/decisions in trades etc, the Leafs could have had Kehoe or Stoughton (traded for one another), Carlyle and Parent as part of the core. You could wonder if Shanny remembered those transactions as well as the dismantling by Imlach. As a President you look at Imlachs decisions as just a dinosaur making bad ones, but losing these players earlier were maybe the keystone decisions that eventually lead to the end of a potentially great team. And those were made by a pretty good GM in Jim Gregory. So that may be Shanahan’s cautionary tale.