The Athletic: Maple Leafs and Panthers rosters weakened the most during the off season

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You guys did the same thing with Morgan Reilly.
Except Rielly can actually defend, produce more offensively and isn't nearly as dog shit as Sergachev. Rielly is a legitimate #2 Dman, Sergachev is barely a #4. He can produce a few points but calling him trash defensively is an understatement, this guy is Gardiner/Lebda level trash at actually defending lol, as a divisional rival I love it. He got exposed badly this year, now that the Lightning are paying him 8.5M I assume the expectation is for him to anchor his own pairing and not get baby sat by Hedman. Him "anchoring" his own pairing was just lol.

Hedman is obviously still elite, Cernak is great, beyond that the D is average at best. Sergachev and Foote are horrendous defensively. At least Foote is being paid for what he's worth. But for a guy who's career high was 40 points in his rookie season and is that bad defensively, 8.5M is just horrendous, I'd rather take Nurses contract over that tbh.

FYI Rielly's cap hit is 1M less than Sergachev, has a career high of 72 points and just put up 68 points last year. So trying to suggest he has a bad contract is lol.

Tampa's reign in the East/Atlantic is done, 2 cups which is phenomenal but it's a new age going forward, Tampa is not the top dog.
 
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Not sure how the regular season shakes out but Tampa’s still the top dog when it comes to the playoffs imo. Both the Leafs and Panthers got weaker while Tampa still has a Hall of Famer and top Vezina, Norris and Hart contender at each of the goalie, D and forward positions. No other team can touch that. And they are just better built for the playoffs as every player buys into playing a physical two way game while Florida and Toronto don’t have that same buy in. Plus a healthy Point will more than replace any losses they sufffered.
 
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I’ll bump this thread when they do. You really think Matt Murray is going to carry a team of notorious chokers to glory?

And Florida - just look at their D. Enough said.
I think Dubas gets a goalie at the deadline if Murray and Samsonov don't work out. He can use the OTT pick as a sweetener to unload Murray with 1 year left.
 
Except Rielly can actually defend, produce more offensively and isn't nearly as dog shit as Sergachev. Rielly is a legitimate #2 Dman, Sergachev is barely a #4.
I largely agree with the overall assessment of their value (#2/#4) but Rielly can not defend, he is an extremely poor defender and is absolutely not better defensively than Sergachev (which is an extremely low bar).
FYI Rielly's cap hit is 1M less than Sergachev, has a career high of 72 points and just put up 68 points last year. So trying to suggest he has a bad contract is lol.
They both have bad contracts, Sergachev's is worse in a $/WAR sense but Rielly's is probably more dangerous given what he "represents" to the Leafs in terms of being the kind of player that coaches fall in love with. He skates well, was a high pick, is a good leader, and has the stamina to play big minutes, so coaches look at him and see a #1D and use him accordingly, which comes with a big opportunity cost IMO. Comparatively, Sergachev will never be Hedman's partner and never get true #1 minutes/role outside of injury situations.
Tampa's reign in the East/Atlantic is done, 2 cups which is phenomenal but it's a new age going forward, Tampa is not the top dog.
I find that hard to believe. You'd certainly take the field over any individual team if it's a question of will Tampa make it to the cup final again this year since the collective odds of the other 7 playoff teams are higher, but I don't really see why Palat/McDonagh out and some depth guys in would make you declare their era is over.

Their closest competitors lost Weegar/Huberdeau for Tkachuk, lost Mikheyev/Kase/Blackwell + G tandem for Murray/Samsonov/Jarnkrok/Aube-Kubel, and lost Haula for Zacha. Tampa lost some important guys but I don't really see their offseason as some crushing blow given the quality of their core, Carolina is probably the only East playoff team that gained much ground relative to Tampa this summer.
 
I largely agree with the overall assessment of their value (#2/#4) but Rielly can not defend, he is an extremely poor defender and is absolutely not better defensively than Sergachev (which is an extremely low bar).

They both have bad contracts, Sergachev's is worse in a $/WAR sense but Rielly's is probably more dangerous given what he "represents" to the Leafs in terms of being the kind of player that coaches fall in love with. He skates well, was a high pick, is a good leader, and has the stamina to play big minutes, so coaches look at him and see a #1D and use him accordingly, which comes with a big opportunity cost IMO. Comparatively, Sergachev will never be Hedman's partner and never get true #1 minutes/role outside of injury situations.

I find that hard to believe. You'd certainly take the field over any individual team if it's a question of will Tampa make it to the cup final again this year since the collective odds of the other 7 playoff teams are higher, but I don't really see why Palat/McDonagh out and some depth guys in would make you declare their era is over.

Their closest competitors lost Weegar/Huberdeau for Tkachuk, lost Mikheyev/Kase/Blackwell + G tandem for Murray/Samsonov/Jarnkrok/Aube-Kubel, and lost Haula for Zacha. Tampa lost some important guys but I don't really see their offseason as some crushing blow given the quality of their core, Carolina is probably the only East playoff team that gained much ground relative to Tampa this summer.

Because they struggled badly vs Toronto with those guys in the lineup, they were actually outplayed for the most part but just got some extremely fortunate bounces in their favor. Now we replay that series without McDonagh and Palat and it's not close. It's not like they were steamrolling the playoffs like 2 years ago, they had some really hard fought series apart from Florida. McDonagh was absolutely crucial for them, Sergachev and Foote are very very bad defensively. So bad that Cooper had to break up the 3rd pair and stick Sergachev next to Hedman and Foote next to McDonagh so they wouldn't get abused and exploited any further. Now you lose an anchor on D and your #1LW, that's gonna have a huge impact.

Kase was irrelevant for Toronto all year he was injured and a non-impact player. Blackwell wasn't anything special, 4th line guy played with energy but didn't produce. Mikheyev was a bigger loss, he played the bottom 6 well, forechecked hard and played the PK, that we are going to miss.

I think people are really downplaying how important McDonagh and Palat were to the Bolts success. They're not just average guys, or bottom 6 guys, those are legitimate studs. McDonagh is a top pairing guy, Palat is a top 6 forward on every team in the league.
 
Both still have more than enough fire power to knock teams out on their ass. Well in the regular season anyway.
 
Because they struggled badly vs Toronto with those guys in the lineup, they were actually outplayed for the most part but just got some extremely fortunate bounces in their favor.
This is true but you could draw a different conclusion as well. Another way to look at it is they didn't play very well against Toronto and still managed to be competitive and win the series in the end, even without one of their key strengths in goaltending as Vasilevskiy was quite pedestrian until very late in the series. Tampa's stars also didn't take over the series as they did in the past or later in the playoffs, so if you replay the series it's not a given the other players struggle as much or that all of Toronto's big-name players have a good series at the same time either.

The obvious counter-argument would be that the things Toronto did are what made Tampa look like they weren't at their best and I certainly think that's true to some degree, but I don't think it's the entire explanation and some of it is just Tampa flatly struggling of their own accord early in that series. Toronto gave them a really hard series, but Tampa was also just sluggish to start, I think both things can be true.
Now we replay that series without McDonagh and Palat and it's not close.
Maybe, but either Matt Murray or Ilya Samsonov are now in net at the other end of the ice, Toronto's depth is worse than it was in May, Muzzin was very good in the playoffs and is a question mark going forward based on his health, and I wouldn't count on a sub-.900 performance from Vasilevskiy repeating.
Now you lose an anchor on D and your #1LW, that's gonna have a huge impact.
Yeah, it's going to be a big impact, but I think they should be fine to go with Hedman + some guy, and then a Sergachev-Cernak pair for now and address the defensive issues at the deadline if needed, or they can find a cheap defensive caddy for Sergachev and just move Cernak up to the top pair. It's just a lot easier to address these problems when you have a unicorn as your #1D like Hedman, you don't really need much of a player to partner with him and form an elite top pair with Hedman.

As for Palat he's a tough loss for Tampa, but adding Hagel should help bridge the gap and Killorn produced more in a bigger role last year. They also lost Point in round 1 last year and getting him back will have a huge impact too. Ross Colton had 40 points last year, he probably can produce more in a higher role, Perry can take some 3rd line shifts, etc, they have the freedom to move Stamkos around the lineup, and they even brought back Namestnikov who they've successfully used as a third wheel before. They have options and I think they can replace him in the aggregate, at least for the regular season.
Kase was irrelevant for Toronto all year he was injured and a non-impact player. Blackwell wasn't anything special, 4th line guy played with energy but didn't produce. Mikheyev was a bigger loss, he played the bottom 6 well, forechecked hard and played the PK, that we are going to miss.
I agree that Mikheyev is the only major difference maker they lost, but there's some death by 1000 cuts stuff here. Kase and Blackwell weren't special players but I think it's a downgrade to replace them with Jarnkrok and Aube-Kubel, it's a huge downgrade to lose Spezza and replace him with Gaudette, and Mikheyev's absence puts Simmonds in the Leafs lineup full-time at least to start the year. That bottom six looks pretty dire right now.

There's a chance that Robertson breaks out this year or that Knies can be a missing piece on the 3rd line to end the year for Toronto but that's a risky proposition for improving what's currently pretty dicey bottom-six depth.
I think people are really downplaying how important McDonagh and Palat were to the Bolts success. They're not just average guys, or bottom 6 guys, those are legitimate studs. McDonagh is a top pairing guy, Palat is a top 6 forward on every team in the league.
I'm not really downplaying them, it's just that I'm still not convinced we should permanently downgrade their standing when none of their close competitors besides Carolina actually got better on paper. It's a big loss but I think they have the forward depth to absorb losing Palat, and Hedman gives them a big margin of safety to address their defence at the deadline if needed and to shake things around midseason if needed.
 
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"Pomo" is stepping into the most talented team he's ever had(2018 Jets were great, but he's starting with more here).
Not true at all. Show me a defense with Buff, Trouba, Myers, and 4 lines working.

Panthers don't have that this year. I think Florida misses the playoffs, if there are some injuries to top players.

I'll predict

Ottawa (surprise)
Tampa
Toronto
Boston

as the 4 who come out of the Atlantic. Detroit needs one more year, and then look out.
 
This is true but you could draw a different conclusion as well. Another way to look at it is they didn't play very well against Toronto and still managed to be competitive and win the series in the end, even without one of their key strengths in goaltending as Vasilevskiy was quite pedestrian until very late in the series. Tampa's stars also didn't take over the series as they did in the past or later in the playoffs, so if you replay the series it's not a given the other players struggle as much or that all of Toronto's big-name players have a good series at the same time either.

The obvious counter-argument would be that the things Toronto did are what made Tampa look like they weren't at their best and I certainly think that's true to some degree, but I don't think it's the entire explanation and some of it is just Tampa flatly struggling of their own accord early in that series. Toronto gave them a really hard series, but Tampa was also just sluggish to start, I think both things can be true.

Maybe, but either Matt Murray or Ilya Samsonov are now in net at the other end of the ice, Toronto's depth is worse than it was in May, Muzzin was very good in the playoffs and is a question mark going forward based on his health, and I wouldn't count on a sub-.900 performance from Vasilevskiy repeating.

Yeah, it's going to be a big impact, but I think they should be fine to go with Hedman + some guy, and then a Sergachev-Cernak pair for now and address the defensive issues at the deadline if needed, or they can find a cheap defensive caddy for Sergachev and just move Cernak up to the top pair. It's just a lot easier to address these problems when you have a unicorn as your #1D like Hedman, you don't really need much of a player to partner with him and form an elite top pair with Hedman.

As for Palat he's a tough loss for Tampa, but adding Hagel should help bridge the gap and Killorn produced more in a bigger role last year. They also lost Point in round 1 last year and getting him back will have a huge impact too. Ross Colton had 40 points last year, he probably can produce more in a higher role, Perry can take some 3rd line shifts, etc, they have the freedom to move Stamkos around the lineup, and they even brought back Namestnikov who they've successfully used as a third wheel before. They have options and I think they can replace him in the aggregate, at least for the regular season.

I agree that Mikheyev is the only major difference maker they lost, but there's some death by 1000 cuts stuff here. Kase and Blackwell weren't special players but I think it's a downgrade to replace them with Jarnkrok and Aube-Kubel, it's a huge downgrade to lose Spezza and replace him with Gaudette, and Mikheyev's absence puts Simmonds in the Leafs lineup full-time at least to start the year. That bottom six looks pretty dire right now.

There's a chance that Robertson breaks out this year or that Knies can be a missing piece on the 3rd line to end the year for Toronto but that's a risky proposition for improving what's currently pretty dicey bottom-six depth.

I'm not really downplaying them, it's just that I'm still not convinced we should permanently downgrade their standing when none of their close competitors besides Carolina actually got better on paper. It's a big loss but I think they have the forward depth to absorb losing Palat, and Hedman gives them a big margin of safety to address their defence at the deadline if needed and to shake things around midseason if needed.

Even if we assume that none of Robertson/Knies or the plug and play Marlies step up, the Leafs are the only one of the serious Atlantic contenders with a 1st and a reasonably stocked prospect pool to spend at the deadline. 2023 1sts are going to be valuable with how deep this draft class looks. Tampa and Florida are unlikely to look much different after the deadline, the Leafs could fit in whoever the top deadline target shakes out to be while only losing a Kerfoot/Holl for the cap space.
 
I think the leaf were even better than their recird last year. They had pretty crappy goaltending for large portions of the season. I dont rly know why soup is being paid so well.

I dont have any expectations for their goaltending this year but average would be a big upgrade. I think everyone agrees the team got worse but it wouldn't surprise me if they end up with more points just because of better breaks/goaltending.

I hope everyone is correct in writing them off in the playoffs because I think they are a big threat to go far.
 
Not true at all. Show me a defense with Buff, Trouba, Myers, and 4 lines working.

Panthers don't have that this year. I think Florida misses the playoffs, if there are some injuries to top players.

I'll predict

Ottawa (surprise)
Tampa
Toronto
Boston

as the 4 who come out of the Atlantic. Detroit needs one more year, and then look out.
Lol. Florida will be top 3 in their division, no doubt. There's no chance both Ottawa and Boston surpass Florida. You talk about potential injuries to Florida? What about Boston??? Marchand, McAvoy, and Gryz are out until December. Even after they come back, they will struggle just to make the playoffs. They'll be in a hole. Florida is healthy, except for Duclair. But that's not losing your top scorer, your 1D, and your 3D who runs the pp. Ekblad is getting screws taken out of the leg he broke in March 2021 this summer, so he should be even a little better than last season.
 
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I agree our bottom 6 got significantly worse hopefully Defense and goaltending can step it up and our big 4 can will carry the offence.

We are still gonna make the playoffs but probably another first rd exit hopefully we get a nice matchup.
 
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I know it's not how the metric works but if you added six wins to the 21-22 Wings and took away six wins from the 2nd wild card team in the East last year (Washington) the Wings still miss the playoffs by two points.

While I doubt that we'll be seeing another year where every Eastern playoff team is a 100 point team, 88 points is not gonna be the threshold next year for the East's last playoff spot.
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Because they struggled badly vs Toronto with those guys in the lineup, they were actually outplayed for the most part but just got some extremely fortunate bounces in their favor. Now we replay that series without McDonagh and Palat and it's not close. It's not like they were steamrolling the playoffs like 2 years ago, they had some really hard fought series apart from Florida. McDonagh was absolutely crucial for them, Sergachev and Foote are very very bad defensively. So bad that Cooper had to break up the 3rd pair and stick Sergachev next to Hedman and Foote next to McDonagh so they wouldn't get abused and exploited any further. Now you lose an anchor on D and your #1LW, that's gonna have a huge impact.

Kase was irrelevant for Toronto all year he was injured and a non-impact player. Blackwell wasn't anything special, 4th line guy played with energy but didn't produce. Mikheyev was a bigger loss, he played the bottom 6 well, forechecked hard and played the PK, that we are going to miss.

I think people are really downplaying how important McDonagh and Palat were to the Bolts success. They're not just average guys, or bottom 6 guys, those are legitimate studs. McDonagh is a top pairing guy, Palat is a top 6 forward on every team in the league.
You guys dream every year. More dreams.

They always turn into nightmares for you guys.

Tampa>>>>>toronto
 
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People need to realize that while Ottawa got a lot better and Florida got worse, in order for the Sens to pass the Panthers in the standings this year there needs to be a 50 point swing in the standings between the two teams. That just doesn't happen.

on a sidenote I don't really understand the take that the Panthers have a bad goaltending situation. Bob is coming off a good year (including a solid postseason) and Knight was really good down the stretch and has as much potential as any young goalie in the league. Seems to me like people see Bob's awful contract and conflate that with him being bad rather than above average, but overpaid like crazy.
 
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Ottawa has some good pieces, but also pretty flawed roster. Looks like 85 point team to me. Same with Detroit. Bolts and Panthers bot got significantly worse, Panthers defence right now looks like bottom-10 in the league and who knows what kind of goaltending they'll get. Bruins are looking iffy to start the season with all the injuries, but when McAvoy and Marchand get back they should be at least as good as they were last year with the addition of Lindholm and Krejci. Toronto's goaltending is questionable again, but otherwise they seemed to survive the off-season with the least amount of damage in Atlantic.

Overall should be much more balanced division than in the past 5 years, but in the end it'll probably be the usual suspects (TOR, BOS, TBL, FLA) who are going to make the playoffs.
 
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With the exception of Montreal the Atlantic is going to be challenging. Loosemoose is right. Much more balanced. I love how some fans automatically pencil their teams in the top 3. To be honest I hope it's a bunch of teams fighting to get into the top 3. Much more entertaining hockey.
 
People need to realize that while Ottawa got a lot better and Florida got worse, in order for the Sens to pass the Panthers in the standings this year there needs to be a 50 point swing in the standings between the two teams. That just doesn't happen.
I get your point and I do think that there should be some respect for Florida before even looking at the roster.

But what you said isn't impossible. Best recent comparable is probably Washington & New Jersey from 16 to 17. Caps won the Presidents Trophy with 118 points, then lost Williams, Johansson, Schmidt and Alzner and dropped 13 points in the standings. NJ was bad, then jumped from 70 to 97, closing the gap by 40 points.

It's not 50, but consider this, the Caps had such a dominant team that they won the presidents trophy basically sleepwalking. So some of their top guys even had room to take it to the next level. Kuznetsov exploded (59->83), Ovechkin bounced back from arguably his worst season ever and won the Rocket and Carlson had a career season as their #1 defenseman. Their depth had some decent stuff as well (Wilson started scoring, Vrana & Stephenson rookie years), and in the end, the Capitals lost pretty much nothing up front. They actually ended up scoring only 4 goals less than the previous year.

New Jersey was a team nobody thought was any good. 18 yr old Hischier was their top center. No number 1 defenseman to speak of and generally a weak top 4. They had a great start and then played like a 85 point team the rest of the way with Taylor Hall putting up an MVP year.

NJ is proof that these teams can sometimes make the jump, and I don't think there's any question Ottawa looks like a better team. WSH is proof that PT winners can dip significantly even when players internally are able to make up for their off-season losses.

Difference between Florida and Washington is that Florida is going to have a tougher time making up for losses internally. Weegar is irreplaceable. No 3rd liner is going to put up close to PPG like Marchment. Duclair scored 30 and they can't even activate him from the LTIR. Tkachuk and Reinhart just had career years. White, Balcers and Cousins are the Wilsons, Vranas and Stephensons but are they as good? Meh. Barkov and Ekblad missed a bit of time so there's something if they can play all 82, but they haven't played a full season in 3 years so I'm not holding my breath. They also have the minimum roster which puts the team at risk for going in shorthanded occasionally if someone misses a game on a short notice. You can say the Panthers want to be better defensively under Maurice, but the Caps coach was Barry Trotz. Ottawa also has potential for TDL moves if they're in a good spot for the last stretch run, while the Panthers don't have much ammunition left.

So compared to WSH/NJ, Sens look better in comparison and I could see a scenario for a 50 point swing, even if it's not the likely outcome. Florida has a very bright future still I think, but this is not the season to be cocky and have blind belief based on what they've done or what history says. It's going to take a solid season of hockey to make the playoffs, and as we all know, sometimes teams can have seasons where things just don't your way. Florida doesn't have the luxury anymore to take things for granted. If they can solve the current cap issues that would help, but there doesn't seem to be an easy fix that doesn't hurt the team further.

And as a sidenote; I don't know if the Senators are going to be a playoff team or not. Probably not is my guess. But the point is that can't be blind to different possibilities.
 
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