The 5th best player ever is a goalie.

[VanIslander]

Hasek or Roy.

Take your pick. They are closer to the top 4 than ever discussed hereabouts.

It's blasphemy for either to not make your top 10.

Click to read more...

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby/thread

 

[Michael Farkas]

No goalies belong in the top 15.

The idea that it's a lock that a goalie is #5 and we can take our pick is possibly the most self-sabotaging argument I have seen haha

"I think #6 is a center...any center...but it's a center..."

Opinions evolve, but for this to be such a lock when neither have added to their resume...in 2019 your top 120 list had one goalie in the first 14 names (Hasek, 8) and in the first vote, one goalie made your first ballot (Roy, 10th/last).

These guys have really moved up the ladder quickly 15-20 years after they retired, eh?

 

[The Panther]

Patrick Roy is weirdly over-rated on this forum, but whatever, I'm over it. Vladislav Tretiak > Patrick Roy, for me.

Hašek, yes, has a very strong case for top-10.

However, Jacques Plante is the greatest goalie ever, in my opinion. If any goalie is #4, it's him (but I wouldn't have him that high).

 

[wetcoast]

Personally I have a hard time mixing in goalies with position players on all time slits as goalies are much more team dependent than Dmen and especially forwards in building their all time case.

I mean I think Hasek has a strong case due to his elite prime but does the 5th best player of all time have seasons like Hasek did in his first 3 NHL seasons aged 25-27?

I mean what is the eqivilant down parts to position players in the mix for 5th best player of all time?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I mean, what's the bar here? We're not even collectively sold that Crosby is the 5th player ever...he was the very best player in the NHL for ~10 years, elite or near elite for going on 20, an all time playoff dynamo, can lead the league in goals, or assists, take your pick...and it's like "yeah, maybe 10th"...

Do Hasek and Roy have that kind of consistent run of elite or near elite play? Compared to Crosby or Beliveau or Hull or Harvey or Lidstrom? I'm not sure, especially too with how much more goalie stats are dependent on team tactics than skaters'...

 

[Albatros]

I mean I think Hasek has a strong case due to his elite prime but does the 5th best player of all time have seasons like Hasek did in his first 3 NHL seasons aged 25-27?

Chicago choosing the Vezina winner Belfour had very little to do with Hašek, he played just as well if not better when given the opportunity.

 

[wetcoast]

Chicago choosing the Vezina winner Belfour had very little to do with Hašek, he played just as well if not better when given the opportunity.

Sure but that's the problem for me if you are the 5th best player of all time why didn't he get the opportunity?

The other 4 players have a consistency of excellence that makes them the top 4 and there are other players with very long and elite primes, mainly Bourque and Crosby.

The crazy thing is that a goalie can benefit from playing on a really poor team as he stands out more but for position players it's the opposite, McDavid is the best player in the league in 16/17 but his team misses the playoffs the next year even with McDavid scoring 8 more points so Taylor Hall gets the Hart because the Devils squeeze into the payoffs and McDavid falls to 5th.

Goalies are just really hard to slot in IMO.

 

[MadLuke]

Not sure I buy Hasek success was more team tactic dependent than a star forward that was under a : we get Paul Coffey making exit zone and play all-in offense like a Lemieux was.

From 1994 to 1999 Hasek stopped pucks at a .930 rate, the Buffalo Sabres when it was not Hasek in net during that time frame, they were regular below mediocre .897, why say it was particularly team strategy based success ?

And how similar the 1999 Sabres were to the 1994 Sabres, national teams, red wings, senators, Hasek style did seam to work anywhere.

 

[bobholly39]

Sure but that's the problem for me if you are the 5th best player of all time why didn't he get the opportunity?

The other 4 players have a consistency of excellence that makes them the top 4 and there are other players with very long and elite primes, mainly Bourque and Crosby.

The crazy thing is that a goalie can benefit from playing on a really poor team as he stands out more but for position players it's the opposite, McDavid is the best player in the league in 16/17 but his team misses the playoffs the next year even with McDavid scoring 8 more points so Taylor Hall gets the Hart because the Devils squeeze into the payoffs and McDavid falls to 5th.

Goalies are just really hard to slot in IMO.

I don't have Hasek #5, but I don't think there was anything more Hasek could do to displace Belfour.

There's only 1 slot for a goalie per team per game. Chicago was never going to have someone take over for Belfour. It's just a matter of circumstances, really.

Patrick Roy is weirdly over-rated on this forum, but whatever, I'm over it. Vladislav Tretiak > Patrick Roy, for me.

Hašek, yes, has a very strong case for top-10.

However, Jacques Plante is the greatest goalie ever, in my opinion. If any goalie is #4, it's him (but I wouldn't have him that high).

I can flip this on you in that you've always weirdly underrated Roy. When majority says one thing, and you say different, you're usually the contrarian opinion.

 

[Voight]

I mean, what's the bar here? We're not even collectively sold that Crosby is the 5th player ever...he was the very best player in the NHL for ~10 years, elite or near elite for going on 20, an all time playoff dynamo, can lead the league in goals, or assists, take your pick...and it's like "yeah, maybe 10th"...

Do Hasek and Roy have that kind of consistent run of elite or near elite play? Compared to Crosby or Beliveau or Hull or Harvey or Lidstrom? I'm not sure, especially too with how much more goalie stats are dependent on team tactics than skaters'...

Incorrect, but I don't wanna go off topic.

 

[Albatros]

Sure but that's the problem for me if you are the 5th best player of all time why didn't he get the opportunity?

The other 4 players have a consistency of excellence that makes them the top 4 and there are other players with very long and elite primes, mainly Bourque and Crosby.

The crazy thing is that a goalie can benefit from playing on a really poor team as he stands out more but for position players it's the opposite, McDavid is the best player in the league in 16/17 but his team misses the playoffs the next year even with McDavid scoring 8 more points so Taylor Hall gets the Hart because the Devils squeeze into the payoffs and McDavid falls to 5th.

Goalies are just really hard to slot in IMO.

When you're as good or better than the Vezina winner then what more can you do? Hašek played over 20 hours of hockey in 25 games for the Blackhawks and only got 4 losses to his name. But Chicago were already set with Belfour and couldn't keep both anyway because of the upcoming expansion draft.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Agreed, and it's Hasek.

He's the Orr of goalies

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Incorrect, but I don't wanna go off topic.

You know quite well that this exact comment by you will bring things off topic.

 

[Moose Head]

Patrick Roy is weirdly over-rated on this forum, but whatever, I'm over it. Vladislav Tretiak > Patrick Roy, for me.

Hašek, yes, has a very strong case for top-10.

However, Jacques Plante is the greatest goalie ever, in my opinion. If any goalie is #4, it's him (but I wouldn't have him that high).

Having seen all of these guys, I concur. People forget, that outside his two Conn Smythe years, which were truly exceptional, Roy wasn’t particularly good in the playoffs for the habs outside of 89. The habs were quite easily the leagues best defensive team during his time in Montreal and he was the main beneficiary of that fact. He was outplayed by the likes of Hextall, Lemelin, Moog, Vernon and Casey in series the Habs should have won if he was the 5th best player of all time. When exactly did he ever win a series that the other team was favoured? Detroit in 96 and maybe a very raw Quebec in 93 are the only examples that immediately come to mind.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You know quite well that this exact comment by you will bring things off topic.

If saying Crosby was the best player for 10 straight years is on topic, then saying he wasn't is also on topic.

It's either relevant or not, but to say the pro-Crosby view is somehow relevant while the opposing view isn't doesn't make much sense.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

If saying Crosby was the best player for 10 straight years is on topic, then saying he wasn't is also on topic.

It's either relevant or not, but to say the pro-Crosby view is somehow relevant while the opposing view isn't doesn't make much sense.

Thanks for your input.

He said “not to go off topic” because he didn’t want people arguing with him on the opinion.

 

[MXD]

It took me some time, but I absolutely don't disagree with the initial statement.

Not surprising to see our resident Jack Adams and our resident Jack Edwards having their respective takes. Midnight Judges arguing AO over Crosby when it's f***ing not an issue is also not surprising. Only thing missing is Big Phil claiming Red Kelly was the most impressive player he witnessed at the 'Garden or some other impossible shit like that.

 

[wetcoast]

If saying Crosby was the best player for 10 straight years is on topic, then saying he wasn't is also on topic.

It's either relevant or not, but to say the pro-Crosby view is somehow relevant while the opposing view isn't doesn't make much sense.

Looks like this guy was right eh?

You know quite well that this exact comment by you will bring things off topic.

 

[DrMartinVanNostrand]

Ignoring the thread title aspect of this, if the choice is Hasek vs. Roy, I'm taking Hasek every single time without a moment's hesitation. There isn't a doubt in my mind he's the best goaltender to ever play in the NHL.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Hasek or Roy.

Take your pick. They are closer to the top 4 than ever discussed hereabouts.

It's blasphemy for either to not make your top 10.

Well neither are top 5, but Hasek is your answer, if I’m taking a goalie.

I don't have Hasek #5, but I don't think there was anything more Hasek could do to displace Belfour.

There's only 1 slot for a goalie per team per game. Chicago was never going to have someone take over for Belfour. It's just a matter of circumstances, really.



I can flip this on you in that you've always weirdly underrated Roy. When majority says one thing, and you say different, you're usually the contrarian opinion.

As a hawk fan, I wanted to keep Hasek.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Having seen all of these guys, I concur. People forget, that outside his two Conn Smythe years, which were truly exceptional, Roy wasn’t particularly good in the playoffs for the habs outside of 89. The habs were quite easily the leagues best defensive team during his time in Montreal and he was the main beneficiary of that fact. He was outplayed by the likes of Hextall, Lemelin, Moog, Vernon and Casey in series the Habs should have won if he was the 5th best player of all time. When exactly did he ever win a series that the other team was favoured? Detroit in 96 and maybe a very raw Quebec in 93 are the only examples that immediately come to mind.

I think this is harsh towards Roy for a few reasons:

- you're only looking at half of Roy's career, and then you're excluding his three best playoff runs from that portion. Of course he's going to look worse. (To illustrate the point, if we remove Crosby's 1st, 2nd and 5th best playoff runs - say 2008, 2009, and 2010 or 2018, suddenly he's sub-PPG).

- I agree that the Habs were the best defensive team in the NHL over the course of Roy's career. But he pretty clearly wasn't a result of the system. For one thing, he did essentially as well in Colorado as he did in Montreal (from 1986 to 1995, and then also from 1996 to 2003, he was 2nd in save percentage among goalies who played 200+ games - and obviously Colorado didn't play any near as conservatively as the Habs). No, he didn't win any Vezina's in Colorado, but that's mostly because (relative to the league) he played fewer games compared to in Montreal. And Roy put up better numbers than all of the other Habs goalies during his time there (90.4% vs 89.8% save percentage). (Insert all the standard caveats about save percentage here).

- it's true that Roy usually played on strong teams. I count 5 series where he played on teams that finished 10+ points behind their opponent: 1996 vs Detroit (27 pts), 2002 vs Detroit (17 pts), 1999 vs Dallas (16 pts), 2000 vs Detroit (12 pts), 19991 vs Boston (11 pts). Roy and his team went 2-3 (with a 17-15 record overall). And he had the higher save percentage than the opposing goalies across these five series, so it's hard to blame the losses on him (okay, we can blame him for game 7 in 2002).

- of the five goalies you mentioned, only Moog outplayed Roy more than once:
- Roy played against Vernon three in the playoffs (1986, 1989 1997) and was the better goalie in all three matchups. (The Avalanche lost in 1997, but if I had to blame someone, it would be Forsberg, who was practically invisible - as opposed to the goalie who stopped 93%+ of the shots he faced, including 71 of 73 over the final two games).
-Roy played Hextall twice in the postseason (I'm not counting 1987, when Roy only played one game). Roy was better in 1993, and much better in 1989 (when Hextall was splitting duties with Wregget).
-I can only find one matchup against Casey (1994) and Roy was pretty clearly the better goalie. (Roy had one bad game out of six, with his backup playing once in a one-sided loss).
-Roy faced off against Lemelin twice. He was definitely better in 1989 (though Lemelin was splitting duties with Moog). Lemelin was better in 1988, but Montreal wasn't going to win when they scored 2 goals over the final three games of the series.

Ultimately I agree - I don't think there's much of a case for Roy at #5. But his reputation as a top five playoff performer all-time is justified, and he was a really good playoff performer even outside of his three Conn Smythe runs.

 

[Cruor]

The nitpicking of Hasek on this forum over the years, by a select few, has been off the charts. Lidström got a similar treatment. Like if we magnify Roy by 10% of the same amount he comes off looking...not as good.

 

[Crocodiligator]

Is it really so obvious by now that Hasek and Roy are much more deserving of the 5th spot than Plante? Is there any clear evidence that Dominik and Patrick were all around more dominant prime/career wise than Jacques?

 

[MXD]

Is it really so obvious by now that Hasek and Roy are much more deserving of the 5th spot than Plante? Is there any clear evidence that Dominik and Patrick were all around more dominant prime/career wise than Jacques?

Jacques Plante is penalized because his best years were with the best NHL team of all time. (obvious TLDR)