Speculation: The 50 contract limit - how can you reduce it without trading?

[schenneuf]

Teams have a max allowable 50 NHL contracts. Guys on LTIR count. Normal IR count. Guys buried in the minors count. Lots of no-name guys who are playing on your 4th line in the AHL count.

Question: How do you reduce that amount without making a trade? If you waive a guy on your NHL team, and he goes unclaimed and goes to the AHL, he still counts towards your 50 max limit.

So what are ways you can reduce that number? Is it only via trade? Or other ways?

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[PaPaDee]

Buyouts and letting contracts slide for players returning to junior hockey are the only other ways I'm aware of. I don't think assigning a player to another league works, but not certain.

 

[Richiebottles]

Termination waivers. Sending them down to the ECHL ?

 

[Neiler]

I can't remember the details that well but didn't Toronto do something like this just last year in the Phaneuf deal? It did involve a trade but I thought it was Frattin or someone who they traded to Ottawa and then Ottawa immediately loaned him back to the Marlies. So Ottawa picked up the contract but the Leafs paid it.

I don't remember how it went but something like that.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Termination waivers. Sending them down to the ECHL ?

No sendind down to the ECHL does reduce the contract from the 50

 

[Richiebottles]

No sendind down to the ECHL does reduce the contract from the 50

Does or doesn't ?

 

[Jumptheshark]

Does or doesn't ?

Does not. SORRY on phone and Autocorrect did it's thing

 

[paulhiggins]

Who wants the 50 player limit? Somebody must want it. Otherwise why would it be there?

 

[varano]

I can't remember the details that well but didn't Toronto do something like this just last year in the Phaneuf deal? It did involve a trade but I thought it was Frattin or someone who they traded to Ottawa and then Ottawa immediately loaned him back to the Marlies. So Ottawa picked up the contract but the Leafs paid it.

I don't remember how it went but something like that.

You know what bud, I think you might be thinking of the trade for the goon from San Jose. What was his name. ...played for Vancouver too.

 

[belair]

Slip illegal drugs into a player's carry-on?

 

[MacerV]

Mutual termination of a contract is the only way you can do it that I know of. For example 2 years ago leafs signed Petri Kontiola and he just wasn't doing well on north america ice and he wanted to return to the KHL so they terminated the contract. Not sure where its covered in the CBA, I looked quickly but couldn't find it.

 

[Number 57]

Most teams start the season at 51 or 52 but have a couple contracts slide. Despite what some are saying here it is pretty rare to see contract termination, perhaps only 6-7 players per year total so it is definitely not a good way to reduce your contract numbers. It only happens when a player wants to go back to Europe or something. It doesnt happen everyday.

Realistically though there are no reason to reduce it during the season. If both teams are at 50 contracts and are making a trade together, you simply need to take back as many contracts as you send away. GMs sometimes make it work by throwing random ECHL players in.

They only way to clear your contracts number is in the summer. You let players walk into free agency and you buy a couple contracts out. You get down to 37-38 contracts and then you fill in the holes by signing free agents for your NHL and AHL team. Then you start the year around 48-49 and repeat the process.

It would be dumb to start the season in October with only like 45 contracts, you'd probably have some holes in the AHL and by then every worthy player are already signed, so you're left with nothing. There is almost no point in leaving space, save for maybe 1-2 contract spots for the odd trade here and there.

 

[uncleben]

Mutual termination of a contract is the only way you can do it that I know of. For example 2 years ago leafs signed Petri Kontiola and he just wasn't doing well on north america ice and he wanted to return to the KHL so they terminated the contract. Not sure where its covered in the CBA, I looked quickly but couldn't find it.

13.21 (a) When a Club desires to terminate a Player's SPC for any reason, such action may not be taken until Unconditional Waivers have been requested and cleared in conformity with this Article.i

That's the most explicit I could find in the CBA
I know specific teams have their own specific list of things that they deem terminable offenses, and players can appeal if they feel wrongfully terminated (see Mike Richards)
but I think the vagueness in the CBA also gives the NHLPA power to negotiate mutual termination and release.
If the player agrees to forfeit all owed salary and the player agrees to forfeit the player's rights, they may terminate the contract at any time.


The only other way to remove a contract is to have a player voluntarily retire. :/


I think there may be some provisions for loaning a player on contract to Europe, in some conditions, but I may be misremembering.

 

[Aestivalis]

Who wants the 50 player limit? Somebody must want it. Otherwise why would it be there?

All teams want it. You don't want one team with a lot of money hogging up all the prospects, preventing them from signing with your team. 50 spots means you have enough bodies to fill your NHL team, your AHL team, and have some depth beyond that in the ECHL, juniors, and abroad.

 

[Booba]

All teams want it. You don't want one team with a lot of money hogging up all the prospects, preventing them from signing with your team. 50 spots means you have enough bodies to fill your NHL team, your AHL team, and have some depth beyond that in the ECHL, juniors, and abroad.

Both the draft and the rules regarding entry-level contracts already prevents this from happening.

One could argue that this rule restrains a team from grabbing all the top UFA prospects, however those ''high profile'' free agents usually pick teams who lack depth at a certain position.

I can't remember the details that well but didn't Toronto do something like this just last year in the Phaneuf deal? It did involve a trade but I thought it was Frattin or someone who they traded to Ottawa and then Ottawa immediately loaned him back to the Marlies. So Ottawa picked up the contract but the Leafs paid it.

I don't remember how it went but something like that.

That's exactly what it was.

You know what bud, I think you might be thinking of the trade for the goon from San Jose. What was his name. ...played for Vancouver too.

It was actually the opposite of Frattin's situation. Toronto acquired Torres' NHL rights but loaned him back to San Jose's AHL team.

 

[klamla]

You know what bud, I think you might be thinking of the trade for the goon from San Jose. What was his name. ...played for Vancouver too.

you're thinking raffi torres - i think they just paid him to stay away from the team

but he was indeed thinking matt frattin

 

[Djp]

I can't remember the details that well but didn't Toronto do something like this just last year in the Phaneuf deal? It did involve a trade but I thought it was Frattin or someone who they traded to Ottawa and then Ottawa immediately loaned him back to the Marlies. So Ottawa picked up the contract but the Leafs paid it.

I don't remember how it went but something like that.

You can loan a player to a different ahl club other your own. The salary is still on ottawas books.

As for the OP....contracts that slide do not count against the 50 if they player is sent back to the Chl.

Many teams only go to 46-48 to give them room to add contracts in season trades.

 

[Djp]

Who wants the 50 player limit? Somebody must want it. Otherwise why would it be there?

It's part of the CBA.

Teams have their NHL club snd an ahl club. Both teams have 23 man rosters which gives you 46 players. The extra 4 spaces are for sliding contracts and trades that occur.

If you didn't have a 50 contract limit teams would be signing undrafted CHLplayers at 18 left and tight.

In the rules teams have a 90 player max rights limit too.

This limit is in place because say a team in the 2014 and 2015 drafts had a combined 35 players taken. In 2016 they had 20 picks taken. Now they have 35 players with unsigned rights.

If the have a 49 man roster of contracted players they can run into a problem heading into the 2027 draft with 48+35=83 and they have 8 draft picks, thus exceeding the 90 player rights limit.

 

[thadd]

Scare your players into early retirement!

 

[Lunatik]

All teams want it. You don't want one team with a lot of money hogging up all the prospects, preventing them from signing with your team. 50 spots means you have enough bodies to fill your NHL team, your AHL team, and have some depth beyond that in the ECHL, juniors, and abroad.

I'd be willing to bet the NHLPA wanted the contract limit, it's harder to keep guys under contract buried too far down the depth charts.

 

[boredmale]

Who wants the 50 player limit? Somebody must want it. Otherwise why would it be there?

If you don't have a 50 player limit what would stop a team say like the rangers having 3 or 4 farm teams and basically signing tons of marginal prospects in the hopes that one pans out.

It basically would give teams with money an advantage

 

[FissionFire]

Call Dean Lombardi I'm sure he has a few tricks still up his sleeve.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Plant drugs in a player's suitcase and cancel their contract when they get caught.

 

[Canada4Gold]

If you don't have a 50 player limit what would stop a team say like the rangers having 3 or 4 farm teams and basically signing tons of marginal prospects in the hopes that one pans out.

It basically would give teams with money an advantage

assuming you're signing actual prospects then their ELC's are 2 way deals and they're getting like 50k in the AHL. You'd have to sign 20 of them just to waste a million dollars. Hardly a huge financial burden, and non financial powerhouses could afford something like that as well.

 

[boredmale]

assuming you're signing actual prospects then their ELC's are 2 way deals and they're getting like 50k in the AHL. You'd have to sign 20 of them just to waste a million dollars. Hardly a huge financial burden, and non financial powerhouses could afford something like that as well.

I disagree, there is many teams that have internal budget and while 1M sounds like chump change it's still alot of money. beyond that if you want to put these marginal prospects in the best chance to develop you probably want to sign a bunch of AHL veterans for them to play with which could be like another 1-2M when giving out 200k contracts to a bunch of guys.

I could only imagine if there was no limit to how many players you could sign, the second the draft is over you would have a bunch of teams signing like 10-20 guys who went undrafted each year(something which you can do now but you have to worry about that person taking up a contract slot) in hopes that 1 of them is that guy who slips through the cracks