The 1984-85 Islanders

[CHIMO]

Hey everyone!

Thank you all for your amazing contributions to the site. I'm a long-time lurker and am finally getting off my butt to post and make threads!

Going into the '84-85 season, were the New York Islanders still perceived as the favourites in the Wales Conference? Was there an "up-and-coming" team in the Wales that was expected to give them a run for their money (from what I've read, the Flyers were a bit of a surprise in '85)? Were they still considered favourites for the Cup? I have long been curious. Thank you kindly for any info!

 

[frisco]

Islanders were the major favorites still. There wasn't really a dominate team out East. Quebec, Boston, Washington were all good, solid teams but not on the Islanders level. Philly had completely purged their veterans (Clarke, Barber, Sittler) and were considered talented but unproven. Buffalo had a lot of young talent, probably more than Philly, but nobody thought teenagers like Barrasso and Housley could match the Islander dynasty.

Islanders had added Flatley and Lafontaine so there was a real feeling that these for a full season could easily get NYI back to the Cup vs. Edmonton. And Brent Sutter was really pushing Trottier for the number one C spot.

In my opinion, Keenan giving the reins to the young core and ridding the team of the vets was the key. I don't think Philly had a forward over 26 years old and Howe was still in his prime on the back end. Kerr, Poulin, Propp were the lead guys and the rest of the forwards were all young, talented, and hungry, and got the opportunity. In the playoffs, the young legs won out over the more veteran Islanders. Not that the Islanders were "old" but a lot of miles on the squad.

My Best-Carey

 

[Staniowski]

I thought the Islanders future looked fairly bright heading into '84-'85.

First, it should be pointed out that the Isles had made at least the semi-finals in 9 out of the previous 10 seasons (4 Cups, 1 Finalists, 4 Semi-Finalists). So, they had been at or near the top for a long time.

The veterans were starting to look slower in the '84 finals, at least compared to the Oilers, but the line of Bossy - B. Sutter - Tonelli had just been superb in the '84 Canada Cup, arguably the best line of the tournament (though they didn't play the entire tournament together). Arbour kept this line together for most of the '84-'85 season.

They had several very good young players, especially Brent Sutter, Pat LaFontaine, Pat Flatley, Tomas Jonsson, Kelly Hrudey.

I thought the veterans and young guys would mesh successfully but they really didn't.

They kept a winning record until they lost Bossy in '87, then Potvin in '88.

 

[Big Phil]

Yeah, the ide was that they could be back to take on the Oilers again. Gretzky did a Playboy interview, which might surprise people in the same mold that Jimmy Carter did one in 1976 and Dolly Parton posed (but not naked) in 1978 on the cover. But it was April of 1985 and I have read that entire interview. It was good, Gretzky was his usual wholesome self in the interview but one thing that kept coming up was his respect for the Islanders. He talked a lot about Potvin, Trottier and Bossy in reverent terms. It is a shame that they never returned the favour because they hated the Oilers for wrecking their "drive for 5" run. Even today there is a hardness that comes from especially Bossy and Trottier I have noticed about the Oilers, probably because they never felt they got the same attention with their dynasty.

But anyways, the point is Gretzky made a point of talking about how much he respected those guys. He doesn't say a thing about the Flyers who would be his opponent in the final that spring. It was all about the Islanders.

Yeah, there was no reason they couldn't have gotten back to the final, but I think we tend to underrate burnout a lot. And age. They were getting older, and 19 playoff wins in a row is a lot of mustard and that's a lot of banging up on your bodies. You can point to a time where the Islanders dynasty ended and that was 1984 and I think it was obvious that while they could still be contenders this was the Oilers' league now.

Think of 2019 when we may just have seen the end of the Golden State Warriors' dynasty. Or not. Durant could stay and if they are healthy it would surprise no one if they won next year with a full team. Or they can start declining, lose Durant, and the time we can pinpoint that the Warriors weren't the "Warriors" anymore was 2019. If there is a comparison I would say that in the spring of 1984 that is how people viewed the Islanders.

 

[The Panther]

Yeah, it's an interesting question. I used to have a 1984 paperback NHL book, and I remember it being quite confident that Edmonton would win again, but I cannot for the life of me recall what it said about the Islanders. But I agree with the general consensus that people thought they'd still be a very good team, and maybe a contender.

Remember that in 1983, they'd got "only" 96 points on the season, a big fall-off from 1982. And then in 1984 they've improved up to 104 points, finished 2nd overall. So, as far as the regular season goes, it probably didn't appear that they were slowing down; in fact, they were improving from '83 to '84.

I do think maybe Trottier and Potvin sort-of aged suddenly around '84. I know Potvin has spoken about his losing a bit of his passion for the game around this time, and I think the increased speed of the game started to pass Trottier by around 1984-85. Don't get me wrong, they were both still star players up to 1987 or 1988, but I don't think they were ever the same from the '84 playoffs onward.

As Phil says, the wear and tear is a BIG factor. The Isles, led by Potvin, had been one of the top teams in the NHL since about 1975 or 1976. By 1984-85 we're looking at nearly a decade hovering around the top, which is a lot of pressure on the players, and five years in a row of four-round playoff runs. That's crazy. from spring 1980 to spring 1984, the Islanders played 99 playoff games, plus their stars appearing in the '81 and '84 Canada Cups, making about an extra 115 super high-pressure games, with big minutes, that they all appeared in during the Cup runs. With the huge pressure of the playoffs, plus the minutes star players put up then, plus the lack of time off during playoffs, I would guess that's about the equivalent of two extra NHL seasons played from 1979-80 through 1984 for those star players. Bossy and Tonelli were a bit younger and could handle it (though Bossy's bad got him back later), but it probably accelerated the slow-down of Potvin and Trottier.

 

[reckoning]

Nobody was picking the Flyers to be a top team that season. They had suffered three straight first-round defeats, were starting their starting their first season without Clarke and Barber, and had a new head coach who was unproven professionally.

Compare that to the Islanders, older but still with a lot of top stars, with big things expected from Lafontaine and Flatley playing their first full seasons. Washington was considered to be the team on the rise who just needed one more piece to become the Wales top contender. Rangers had a strong season and good showing in the playoffs the year before, and had a good mix of veterans and several young players who were expected to keep improving.

The Flyers were an afterthought in the Patrick Division leading into that season. While Mike Keenan had a limited shelf life, he was exactly what they needed at the time.

 

[CHIMO]

Thanks, everyone! That certainly sheds some light on the topic.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

The Islanders, while maybe not considered the favorite to win the Cup, were considered the favorites to win the Patrick Division and return to the Stanley Cup Finals. The Islanders were still a formidable and experienced team with Potvin, Bossy, Trottier, Brent Sutter, etc. However, New York suffered a rash of injuries in the regular season. Bob Nystrom, Clark Gillies, Ken Morrow and Bob Bourne all missed significant chunks of time. Trottier and LaFontaine each missed over 10 games. Only John Tonelli played in all 80 games. As a result, the Isles finished only 6 games over .500 and finished 3rd in the division. Once the playoffs rolled around, the above mentioned players all returned. After bouncing back from an 0-2 deficit to defeat Washington, the Islanders appeared poised for another run. They ran out of gas against Philadelphia in the next series, as the Isles lost in 5 games.

The Flyers were picked to finish around 4th in the Patrick, or out of the playoffs entirely. The goaltending situation was unsettled as Pelle Lindbergh suffered the sophomore jinx in 1983-84. Clarke's retirement and Barber's career ending knee injury left gaping holes at C and LW, respectively. Keenan was an unknown commodity as a rookie NHL coach. Under Keenan, Lindbergh bounced back and won the Vezina. Dave Poulin turned out to be a fine captain as he shifted from LW to C to replace Clarke and produced 74 points in 73 games. Rookie Rick Tocchet, still more of a fighter at this stage, displayed a nice scoring touch. Fellow rookie, Peter Zezel, was great on faceoffs, penalty killing and a good two way forward. New GM Clarke made a key trade by sending Sittler to Detroit for 21 year old Murray Craven, who quietly scored 26 goals. A major reason for the Flyers success was the players were a very tight knit group, thanks to Keenan being so disliked.

 

[vikash1987]

Yeah, the ide was that they could be back to take on the Oilers again. Gretzky did a Playboy interview, which might surprise people in the same mold that Jimmy Carter did one in 1976 and Dolly Parton posed (but not naked) in 1978 on the cover. But it was April of 1985 and I have read that entire interview. It was good, Gretzky was his usual wholesome self in the interview but one thing that kept coming up was his respect for the Islanders. He talked a lot about Potvin, Trottier and Bossy in reverent terms. It is a shame that they never returned the favour because they hated the Oilers for wrecking their "drive for 5" run. Even today there is a hardness that comes from especially Bossy and Trottier I have noticed about the Oilers, probably because they never felt they got the same attention with their dynasty.

But anyways, the point is Gretzky made a point of talking about how much he respected those guys. He doesn't say a thing about the Flyers who would be his opponent in the final that spring. It was all about the Islanders.

Yeah, there was no reason they couldn't have gotten back to the final, but I think we tend to underrate burnout a lot. And age. They were getting older, and 19 playoff wins in a row is a lot of mustard and that's a lot of banging up on your bodies. You can point to a time where the Islanders dynasty ended and that was 1984 and I think it was obvious that while they could still be contenders this was the Oilers' league now.

Think of 2019 when we may just have seen the end of the Golden State Warriors' dynasty. Or not. Durant could stay and if they are healthy it would surprise no one if they won next year with a full team. Or they can start declining, lose Durant, and the time we can pinpoint that the Warriors weren't the "Warriors" anymore was 2019. If there is a comparison I would say that in the spring of 1984 that is how people viewed the Islanders.

Probably the first and only time I'll ever see Gretzky, Playboy, Jimmy Carter and Dolly Parton in the same sentence In all seriousness, that '85 interview was great: it revealed not only Gretz's continued respect toward the Islanders, but also his continued feelings of frustration (e.g. "Obviously, the Islanders know [the best way to defend against me]. They're killing me.") and fear (e.g. "[Sportswriters] call it peripheral vision; I call it fear. You would be able to get out of the way, too, if Potvin were going to hit you.") I had no idea that the Islanders occupied his mind so much as late as '85.

 

[The Panther]

Probably the first and only time I'll ever see Gretzky, Playboy, Jimmy Carter and Dolly Parton in the same sentence In all seriousness, that '85 interview was great: it revealed not only Gretz's continued respect toward the Islanders, but also his continued feelings of frustration (e.g. "Obviously, the Islanders know [the best way to defend against me]. They're killing me.") and fear (e.g. "[Sportswriters] call it peripheral vision; I call it fear. You would be able to get out of the way, too, if Potvin were going to hit you.") I had no idea that the Islanders occupied his mind so much as late as '85.

I don't know the date of the interview, but is it possible it was conducted in the 1984 off-season? (Magazines often have long lags between events and date of publication.)

Definitely a mental barrier for Edmonton against the Isles, though, c.1982 to 1984. I believe the Oilers had lost 10 games in a row to the Islanders prior to game three of the 1984 Final. After that, however, they did rather well against them.

A couple of highlight videos of Islanders vs. Oilers during 1984-85:

Jan.16th 1985 (@ Edmonton):


March 26th, 1985 (@ Long Island, NY):

 

[Big Phil]

I don't know the date of the interview, but is it possible it was conducted in the 1984 off-season? (Magazines often have long lags between events and date of publication.)

Definitely a mental barrier for Edmonton against the Isles, though, c.1982 to 1984. I believe the Oilers had lost 10 games in a row to the Islanders prior to game three of the 1984 Final. After that, however, they did rather well against them.

You mean that before Game 1 of the Cup final they lost 10 straight? That's crazy. I looked it up........yeah, you're right.

1984 season 0-3 vs. Islanders
1983 Cup final 0-4
1983 season 0-3 vs. Islanders
1982 season 1-1-1- vs. Islanders
1981 playoffs lost 2-4 vs. Islanders

You know, I never knew that. The Oilers really did have a mental block against them before they won in 1984.

 

[LightningStorm]

Yeah, the ide was that they could be back to take on the Oilers again. Gretzky did a Playboy interview, which might surprise people in the same mold that Jimmy Carter did one in 1976 and Dolly Parton posed (but not naked) in 1978 on the cover. But it was April of 1985 and I have read that entire interview. It was good, Gretzky was his usual wholesome self in the interview but one thing that kept coming up was his respect for the Islanders. He talked a lot about Potvin, Trottier and Bossy in reverent terms. It is a shame that they never returned the favour because they hated the Oilers for wrecking their "drive for 5" run. Even today there is a hardness that comes from especially Bossy and Trottier I have noticed about the Oilers, probably because they never felt they got the same attention with their dynasty.
.

Based on what I've heard from Gretzky and the Isles you are right on both counts Phil. Here's a video of Gretzky and Bossy both echoing those sentiments.

 

[The Panther]

Bossy is prickly as hell regarding Gretzky/Edmonton.

When Gretzky was asked once about if Bossy had recovered in the late-80s and been acquired by Los Angeles (I think the Kings actually inquired about this possibility at one point), he said some typically Gretzky-esque platitude like, "I wish I could have played with Bossy. He was such a great goal-scorer that we would have done really well together." Then, someone told Bossy about this comment and he said something like, "Why would I want to play with Gretzky? I already played with the best center, Trottier!"

 

[vikash1987]

If you break down those Islander-Oiler games from that streak in the prior two seasons, you can see why Gretz was understandably so obsessed with the Islanders:

10/8/82: Isles 6, Oilers 4 (Gretz a -2)
11/16/82: Isles 4, Oilers 2 (Gretz a -2)
1/30/83: Isles 4, Oilers 2 (Gretz even)

Gm. 1 SCF: Isles 2, Oilers 0 (Gretz a -2)
Gm. 2 SCF: Isles 6, Oilers 3 (Gretz even)
Gm. 3 SCF: Isles 5, Oilers 1 (Gretz a -1)
Gm. 4 SCF: Isles 4, Oilers 2 (Gretz even)

12/4/83: Isles 4, Oilers 2 (Gretz a -3)
12/13/83: Isles 8, Oilers 5 (Gretz a -2)
2/7/84: Isles 5, Oilers 3 (Gretz didn’t play)

Not the best of numbers. Fast forward after the ‘84 Cup to the ‘84-‘85 season, and we see, more or less, an extension of the Oilers’ good fortunes from the ‘84 Cup:

12/5/84: Oilers 6, Isles 4 (Gretz a +2)
1/16/85: Oilers 3, Isles 3 (Gretz a -2)
3/26/85: Oilers 7, Isles 5 (Gretz even)

The Islanders lost their opening game of the ‘84-‘85 season 7-2 to the lowly Devils, which couldn’t have been a good sign (though they made up for it by winning their next 6 of 8). They ended up scoring 345 goals, which was above the league avg. and not that much of a dip from 357 the season before; however, they gave up 312, which was at the league avg. and a more significant change from the 269 the season before. Obviously, you had a bit of a different situation in ‘84-‘85, with Kelly Hrudey splitting time in net and rookie Gerald Diduck getting time on the blueline—but the rest of the D was largely the same, wasn’t it?

 

[tony d]

That Islanders team still had the talent for sure to do well. I think that after winning the Wales Conference 5 yrs. straight they were tired and ready to pass the reins onto another team.

 

[Big Phil]

Based on what I've heard from Gretzky and the Isles you are right on both counts Phil. Here's a video of Gretzky and Bossy both echoing those sentiments.

To be honest, Bossy isn't quite as arrogant in this video as he was with other times. I had to look up what Gretzky was talking about when he said Game 1 in 1983 they outshot the Islanders 53-12. I knew right away that wasn't right. I have no idea how he came up with those numbers. It was 35-24.

The Islanders lost their opening game of the ‘84-‘85 season 7-2 to the lowly Devils, which couldn’t have been a good sign (though they made up for it by winning their next 6 of 8). They ended up scoring 345 goals, which was above the league avg. and not that much of a dip from 357 the season before; however, they gave up 312, which was at the league avg. and a more significant change from the 269 the season before. Obviously, you had a bit of a different situation in ‘84-‘85, with Kelly Hrudey splitting time in net and rookie Gerald Diduck getting time on the blueline—but the rest of the D was largely the same, wasn’t it?

I've always felt that Billy Smith went on a rather sharp decline after 1984 and that had a lot to do with the Isles declining as well. Kelly Hrudey got a lot more time in net, and I think we can all agree that is a drop off from Smith.

 

[The Panther]

To be honest, Bossy isn't quite as arrogant in this video as he was with other times. I had to look up what Gretzky was talking about when he said Game 1 in 1983 they outshot the Islanders 53-12. I knew right away that wasn't right. I have no idea how he came up with those numbers. It was 35-24.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story! Gretzky is a bit like the surviving Beatles in that he has told his chestnut stories so many times that he himself cannot remember what actually happened. He just knows the stories.

I've always felt that Billy Smith went on a rather sharp decline after 1984 and that had a lot to do with the Isles declining as well. Kelly Hrudey got a lot more time in net, and I think we can all agree that is a drop off from Smith.

In general, it is a drop-off, but not at that specific time. The numbers all suggest Hrudey was better than Smith in 1984-85, and Hrudey was not only better than Smith in 1985-86, but he might have been the best goalie in the NHL that season! (That is, until the playoffs when St.Patrick ascended.)