Confirmed Trade: [TBL/CHI] Brandon Hagel, 2022, 2024 4ths for Boris Katchouk, Taylor Raddysh, 2023, 2024 1sts (Top 10 protected)

[Hodge]

Good one.

Go back through past drafts and see for yourself how many players drafted in the 25-30 range became top six forwards or top four dmen. It's maybe one out of every five or six picks in that range. Not good odds.

 

[DearDiary]

Made it myself!

Where did you learn the skills to create such a work? How can a pleb like me reach a level approaching your expertise in your field?

 

[ClydeLee]

Go back through past drafts and see for yourself how many players drafted in the 25-30 range became top six forwards or top four dmen. It's maybe one out of every five or six picks in that range. Not good odds.

Yall know you can trade picks and it's an asset to trade up or so. It's not like they have to draft at that spot, it's still very good asset value

 

[Go19]

No one coming to help Compher out there?

 

[Danrs112]

Ask any gm in the league if they’d trade 5 1st’s for a Cup and the answer would be an unequivocal yes.

Let alone 5 1sts for 2 possibly 3 cups.

 

[Go19]

.

 

[NatoGhost]

Looked at his icetime here, he's had 3 games total with Stamkos/Palat and a few like with Cirelli and Colton. He scored in one of those games with Stamkos, but he's Largely entirely with Katchouk and Colton... Coltons been good on his own like that but it's odd to see these tweeener comments by Tampa fans on a guy who barely played outside a 4th line role and teammates.

So was he bad in preseason or camps as well?

Raddysh T.B 2122

Visualizations and predictions for understanding hockey.

hockeyviz.com

I don't see them as tweeners. Katchouk plays physical but has some skill and should be a good 3rd or 4th liner. Raddysh more skill but not as valuable in a bottom 6 role. Both still have upside and should have NHL roles I'd think.

 

[CupsOverCash]

You can't deny though that this trade seems like a massive overpayment.

Was the trades for Goodrow and Coleman overpayment? When you are Contending and do a good job managing the roster and its premium core, what is a first round pick?

 

[AlexGretzchenvid]

Go back through past drafts and see for yourself how many players drafted in the 25-30 range became top six forwards or top four dmen. It's maybe one out of every five or six picks in that range. Not good odds.

Not a good trade. Plain and simple, defend it all you want. Each team makes bad trades. This is one. I hope I eat crow.


They called him Blake Coleman 2.0.. he’s cursed

 

[bov]

Just a great overall hockey trade. Both teams will be pleased with this down the road. Tampa gets better now and gets the youngest player in the deal, who has one of the best contracts in the league until 2024. Plus, two 4th rounders is nothing to scoff at with how good the scouting dept/player development has been.

Lightning manage to keep their first rounder this year and actually gain a pick in this draft via Chiacgo's 4th. A non-top 10 pick in 23 or 24 probably wouldn't become an impact player for the Bolts for at least 4-5 more years anyway. Plus it buys time for Tampa to acquire a pick in those drafts between now and the summer of 2023/24 if they really want it.

As for Chicago, fantastic return. People acting like Katchouk and Raddysh are fringe NHLers who won't pan out...you have no idea what you're talking about. Both are absolutely NHL players right now and will have more opportunity than ever before to showcase their value. Both contracts could look like some of the best in the NHL very soon.

Raddysh is better suited for a role where he can play a skill game, but he got his chances on the PK and did what he could in a 4th line role even though he was out of his comfort zone. Skilled player with some size and a nice shot.

Katchouk is fun to watch and will be noticeable no matter where he is in the lineup. I was a bit surprised he got traded but you have to give to get. I have no doubt he will carve out a solid career in the NHL.

Great stuff all around

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

Is Hagel that good of a player? I don't understand how Tampa Bay can spend many assets over him.

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

TWO 1sts? In addition to two very respectable prospects? What the f*** is going on here? Is Tampa nuts? The price inflation in the trade market resembles that of gas prices at this point. Teams are getting a bit loony throwing around these 1sts. And yes, I get that Tampa is a contender in win now mode, but still. This is almost like the old NHL be A GM mode trades where you would keep trying to make a trade work and eventually get frustrated and say f*** it and just throw multiple 1sts to push it through or something.

Amen to that. I think offering two firsts was just really bad. Reminds me of when I used to play NHL 20.

 

[byrath]

Go back through past drafts and see for yourself how many players drafted in the 25-30 range became top six forwards or top four dmen. It's maybe one out of every five or six picks in that range. Not good odds.

Yep. If Chicago can draft one Hagel with those picks, they'll be doing pretty well. There's a reason teams trade those picks for average players at the TDL, and it's not because GMs are idiots.

 

[Danrs112]

TWO 1sts? In addition to two very respectable prospects? What the f*** is going on here? Is Tampa nuts? The price inflation in the trade market resembles that of gas prices at this point. Teams are getting a bit loony throwing around these 1sts. And yes, I get that Tampa is a contender in win now mode, but still. This is almost like the old NHL be A GM mode trades where you would keep trying to make a trade work and eventually get frustrated and say f*** it and just throw multiple 1sts to push it through or something.

The draft picks are the least valuable assets to Tampa. Less valuable than prospects. Less valuable than depth players. Even less valuable than mostly washed up vets on their way out of the NHL.

I can see why that might to be true for some or even most teams. But for Tampa there literally isn't anything they can give up in exchange that has less value to them.

Additionally Cap space is more valuable to them than most teams. They're willing to pay more for cap friendly deals that keep their roster intact.

Lastly if and when they get to the point where they feel like the value of draft picks increases they have assets to move in exchange.

 

[LeonDraisaitl]

I’m probably biased as hell seeing as how he’s from Saskatchewan but I genuinely think this is a fair price for a 23 year old. Coaches love him, teammates love him, can guarantee he’s going to be a fan favourite right away. from the sounds of it he is in their long term plans long past his 2 year contract. So to add a player like Hagel at this point in time of his career(he’s done nothing but improved) like this I think you have to pay the price especially being in Tampas position in history

I’m now hoping for a three peat from Tampa, the only question is he bringing the Stanley Cup to Morinville or Saskatoon

 

[wetcoast]

I get selling high on players, but it's still bizarre to me to see a rebuilding team trading a good 23 year old forward.

Edit: after seeing the return, Mother of Christ. Yeah, I get why Chicago traded him now.

2 first rounders and one of them in the 23 draft which will be awesome even if picking in the bottom 15 is huge for the Black Hawks rebuild.

 

[Johnsie19]

Middling forward. Let's remember this when Tampa is on the cusp to their three peat, and Hagel plays an integral part to that effort, just like Coleman/Goodrow/Savard did before him.

I remember when people were chuckling at how much JBB paid for Goodrow. A FOURTH LINER. That shit aged like fine wine.

It's not even that. He seems like a great fit and if Tampa wins I could see him being a big part of it. I just would have expected the price to be maybe 1 first and a prospect/2nd or 3rd. That was a big overpay.

 

[Mal Reynolds]

I mean, sure, they gave up a lot but they're getting a pretty good player for 2 years and change (and for 3 playoff runs)

He's dirt cheap, still could grow some and should get plenty of opportunity to play a valuable role (especially if the cap squeeze forces Tampa to sacrifice a Killorn/Palat type player)

Even if you're skeptical of him growing further and anticipate the normalizing of his absurd 22% shooting, he's still a dirt cheap middle sixer locked in for a couple years

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Tampa gotta go for broke. They ain't drafting anyone as good as him with those picks. Good haul for Chicago.

 

[RationalExpectations]

TWO 1sts? In addition to two very respectable prospects? What the f*** is going on here? Is Tampa nuts? The price inflation in the trade market resembles that of gas prices at this point. Teams are getting a bit loony throwing around these 1sts. And yes, I get that Tampa is a contender in win now mode, but still. This is almost like the old NHL be A GM mode trades where you would keep trying to make a trade work and eventually get frustrated and say f*** it and just throw multiple 1sts to push it through or something.

The two young players are no prospects they are in their D+6 and playing in their first NHL season without showing signs of greatness. TBL paid a 1st for the player and a 1st for his contract, like they did with Coleman.
People need to start to understand that the goal of a GM is to win, so if you spend a 1st developping a good player or acquiring a player, both are done with the goal to win, what is the difference ? What I am seeing is that TBL has won two cups and are in good position for a few more runs, that people were saying they were morons when trading a 1st for Goodrow, Coleman, Savard and do the same with Hagel. Even if they don t win at least they have a coherent plan and maximize their chances of winning.

 

[RationalExpectations]

I mean, sure, they gave up a lot but they're getting a pretty good player for 2 years and change (and for 3 playoff runs)

He's dirt cheap, still could grow some and should get plenty of opportunity to play a valuable role (especially if the cap squeeze forces Tampa to sacrifice a Killorn/Palat type player)

Even if you're skeptical of him growing further and anticipate the normalizing of his absurd 22% shooting, he's still a dirt cheap middle sixer locked in for a couple years

Exactly, 1st rounders are a mean to win the cup, don t care if you spend them drafting or trading for useful players. Those 1st rounders are most likely ending up north of 20 OA anyway.

 

[Iwishihadaspacebar]

TWO 1sts? In addition to two very respectable prospects? What the f*** is going on here? Is Tampa nuts? The price inflation in the trade market resembles that of gas prices at this point. Teams are getting a bit loony throwing around these 1sts. And yes, I get that Tampa is a contender in win now mode, but still. This is almost like the old NHL be A GM mode trades where you would keep trying to make a trade work and eventually get frustrated and say f*** it and just throw multiple 1sts to push it through or something.

If they win their third cup in 3 years, will they care? That is legendary status. Even 3 in 4 years would be dynasty type stuff.

 

[Zwui21]

Not a good trade. Plain and simple, defend it all you want. Each team makes bad trades. This is one. I hope I eat crow.


They called him Blake Coleman 2.0.. he’s cursed

If you think this isn't a good trade for Tampa you obviously aren't paying attention to the full picture.
Not only Tampa gets a 23 years old with currently 20+ goals this season on a horrible team, but he's under contract for 3 more playoff runs at a ridiculous 1.5M AAV.
This is the kind of contracts that Tampa needs to keep the show going and extend its abilities to still be a cup contender for 3-4 more years.

This trade is a masterclass, JBB went out and got what he wanted even tho Chicago wasn't keen on trading Hagel at first.
Once again Tampa inspects the market, identifies his needs (aka who's the best player possible for them to get both in term of on ice production and cap hit/contract lenght) and puts the other team in a position they have to accept the the trade.
And to br fair the price isn't as steep as many make it out to be.

 

[Zwui21]

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

Where did you learn the skills to create such a work? How can a pleb like me reach a level approaching your expertise in your field?

You could probably generate something like that with Inkscape, an open source vector graphics editor. I'd imagine there are YouTube tutorials coming out of that community like there are for Krita (an open source raster graphics program I use since I don't want to pay for Photoshop right now).

Yall know you can trade picks and it's an asset to trade up or so. It's not like they have to draft at that spot, it's still very good asset value

Not only that, I think the way most people seem to evaluate picks is in specific ranges over multiple years like the poster you quoted. In my opinion, the way to evaluate draft picks is to think of it as opportunity to pick any player besides the previous picks (so you are considering the whole rest of the draft instead of, e.g. all 25th-30th overall selections to use the example that poster used). The on-paper odds don't get better (the part I agree with that poster about), but there's at least a chance that at least more NHL players will be selected (indeed, there can't be any less!).

In other words, wouldn't other teams have picked, e.g. Ondrej Palat (208th overall, 7th round) if their scouting departments had been able to identify whatever it was that made him seem like a player that could make an impact in the NHL? Wouldn't Tampa have selected him earlier than Nikita Nesterov (148th OA, 5th round in the same draft)? It isn't as if the draft is a completely blind lottery ball pick.

TWO 1sts? In addition to two very respectable prospects? What the f*** is going on here? Is Tampa nuts? The price inflation in the trade market resembles that of gas prices at this point. Teams are getting a bit loony throwing around these 1sts. And yes, I get that Tampa is a contender in win now mode, but still. This is almost like the old NHL be A GM mode trades where you would keep trying to make a trade work and eventually get frustrated and say f*** it and just throw multiple 1sts to push it through or something.

IIRC, when we traded for Coleman or Gourde (can't remember which, but my late-night brain says it was Coleman) it was seen as an overpay, but I believe the idea for JBB went something like, "That's our guy and I will have enough assets to make a trade for someone else I want so I might as well shut down the bidding wars and uncertainty."

I could definitely see some GMs getting gunshy, though, if they take such a trade as an indicator that the market has shifted in favor of the sellers (esp. considering there is one less guy possibly on the market).