Player Discussion Tage Thompson 2

[Sabre Dance]

You aren't sure why people are questioning why a player who showed he wasn't capable of keeping up at the NHL level in October wasn't sent to the AHL in October?

No. His development obviously wasn't hurt.

 

[Chainshot]

No. His development obviously wasn't hurt.

You seriously believe that he wouldn't be a better player today if he had gone down to the Amerks early in the season to work on his game? Heh. Wow.

 

[Sabre Dance]

You seriously believe that he wouldn't be a better player today if he had gone down to the Amerks early in the season to work on his game? Heh. Wow.

We don't know what was going on at practice. I'm sure there was a reason for keeping Tage up. I'm not complaining because of how he has responded once being sent down. Did he deserve to be up? No, not from what I know. These conversations were had all season. Not sure why people would be angry with him performing well.

 

[Chainshot]

We don't know what was going on at practice. I'm sure there was a reason for keeping Tage up. I'm not complaining because of how he has responded once being sent down. Did he deserve to be up? No, not from what I know. These conversations were had all season. Not sure why people would be angry with him performing well.

People aren't angry that he's performing well. They're angry that a player wasn't treated in the fashion that would have afforded him quality ice time, practice repetition, and situational use to grow -- the traditional route of minor league development in the NHL. We see him having some success and wonder at what might have been possible if he'd been working on the problems that plague his game at faster speeds and with less time.

Edit: as for what happened in his time up with Buffalo, this is similar to several posters comments in November when it was obvious that he should have been sent down. We could see his on-ice mistakes with puck security, his positioning, his over-reliance on stickhandling all season. There was no change in what he was doing. Practice implies that he was working on parts of his game that are not working -- which is a broad swath of problems at this point -- and seeing some improvement. There was none. So this consistent party line about him staying up to work in practice at the NHL level holds no water. It did not make a difference and we can infer from how he played that there was no improvement. We also know that practices days for the NHL team are often very limited.

The only reason that makes sense to see him up all year was that he was a big piece of the O'Reilly trade and that... that points to bigger problems at the top.

 

[Sabre Dance]

People aren't angry that he's performing well. They're angry that a player wasn't treated in the fashion that would have afforded him quality ice time, practice repetition, and situational use to grow -- the traditional route of minor league development in the NHL. We see him having some success and wonder at what might have been possible if he'd been working on the problems that plague his game at faster speeds and with less time.

But at the same time we complain about others staying down too long?

I don't think there is a specific way to develop a player. I don't know why they kept him up. Has anyone ever asked Botterill?

 

[Chainshot]

But at the same time we complain about others staying down too long?

I don't think there is a specific way to develop a player. I don't know why they kept him up. Has anyone ever asked Botterill?

Right, players like Smith who went on multiple week runs of scoring were brought up and relegated to minimal minutes or the press box. The mantra from the front office of development and accountability is not born out in how they operate. Smith and O'Regan seemed to show enough to have deserved meaningful looks and instead we had Tage. Development is an art, but the basics of the medium are to reward good play with ice time at the next level. They did not do that.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Right, players like Smith who went on multiple week runs of scoring were brought up and relegated to minimal minutes or the press box. The mantra from the front office of development and accountability is not born out in how they operate. Smith and O'Regan seemed to show enough to have deserved meaningful looks and instead we had Tage. Development is an art, but the basics of the medium are to reward good play with ice time at the next level. They did not do that.

I agree with all your points but I don't know what Botterill's thought process was when making the decision to keep Tage up and others down. I would like to know.

 

[Chainshot]

I agree with all your points but I don't know what Botterill's thought process was when making the decision to keep Tage up and others down. I would like to know.

That'd be a great question. Too bad the press didn't hound him on that at the end of year press conference. Or any of their other opportunities throughout the months from when it became obvious TT wasn't up to NHL speed.

 

[joshjull]

 

[Gabrielor]

that was my exact question actually. That team could look extremely different next year, with significantly reduced forward talent

 

[Jame]

I agree with all your points but I don't know what Botterill's thought process was when making the decision to keep Tage up and others down. I would like to know.

Under that context you could give Botts a pass on everything...

 

[Buffaloed]

continued from Player Discussion - Tage Thompson 1

 

[sabremike]

Rest of the league BEWARE: 19-20 will be THE YEAR OF TAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TAGE IS COMING FOR YOU.

 

[Dreakon13]

The only reason that makes sense to see him up all year was that he was a big piece of the O'Reilly trade and that... that points to bigger problems at the top.

I mean, sure... as fans (particularly jaded ones with the occasional axe to grind) that may be the only reason that makes sense. Who knows really.

Tage and Nylander earned spots coming out of camp/preseason IMO. Moreso than Smith, Olofsson, O'Regan, Asplund, etc. Given Nylanders benching in the AHL playoffs the prior year and the fact everyone seemed to point to attitude/effort as the reason, one good camp may not have been enough to convince the organization on him. So Thompson got the spot.

As such, I have a feeling Thompson is a confident kid. Takes his struggles and losses on the chin, with a good attitude and does (or tries to do) what his coaches tell him. Not to mention he's a talented hockey player that really needs to work on his decision making at the NHL level. I'm sure they saw that in him, didn't see his struggles this season as detrimental as the extended look in the NHL was beneficial.

Keeping him in the NHL all year may not have been the best decision, but I don't see how it's a horrible one. If sending him down would've been moreso to boost his confidence, I'm not sure that was needed. Tage is doing fine for being a project.

I think people want it to be a crippling decision for the sake of being "the icing on the cake" for this trade very badly for odd personal reasons. It doesn't all have to go back to the trade... but I get why fans here think it should/want it to.

 

[Jim Bob]

 

[Tsyolin]

that was my exact question actually. That team could look extremely different next year, with significantly reduced forward talent

I made a post in the Amerks thread regarding this very topic. Essentially, most of their scoring talent will probably be in Buffalo next season. Tage may start in Rochester but he won't stay the whole season I'd think. Any new scoring talent would be coming in from free agency or some new kids, none of whom I'd expect to make a huge scoring impact out of the gate.

 

[Gabrielor]

I made a post in the Amerks thread regarding this very topic. Essentially, most of their scoring talent will probably be in Buffalo next season. Tage may start in Rochester but he won't stay the whole season I'd think. Any new scoring talent would be coming in from free agency or some new kids, none of whom I'd expect to make a huge scoring impact out of the gate.

Agreed, unless Oregan criscuolo porter leier are coming back, that forward core is going to be a crater

 

[Chainshot]

I mean, sure... as fans (particularly jaded ones with the occasional axe to grind) that may be the only reason that makes sense. Who knows really.

Pointing out that there isn't much hockey-related that kept him up on the team or that getting practice and in-game reps at the minor league level, which is a proven method of improving someone's game is... "having an axe to grind"?

Tage and Nylander earned spots coming out of camp/preseason IMO. Moreso than Smith, Olofsson, O'Regan, Asplund, etc. Given Nylanders benching in the AHL playoffs the prior year and the fact everyone seemed to point to attitude/effort as the reason, one good camp may not have been enough to convince the organization on him. So Thompson got the spot.

The point that he kept the spot even though he was not good at what he was doing in the lineup was the issue of the post. Hearing Botterill lament that he would have liked to have seen players like O'Regan or Smith in bigger roles in Buffalo was particularly frustrating since both went on solid runs in Rochester that are easy to reference as a merit recall for such a look. The opportunity to make internal roster moves and take a moment for evaluation was again lost. That's a bad look, especially when the guy who can make those decisions comments on it like he had no power in the situation.

As such, I have a feeling Thompson is a confident kid. Takes his struggles and losses on the chin, with a good attitude and does (or tries to do) what his coaches tell him. Not to mention he's a talented hockey player that really needs to work on his decision making at the NHL level. I'm sure they saw that in him, didn't see his struggles this season as detrimental as the extended look in the NHL was beneficial.

Given the team's comments about doing thing "the right way" and internal competition, looks odd in light of the free pass his terrible play was given. If they'd sent him down when he was sitting out games and he went on even a fraction of the pace he did to end the season with the Amerks, the overwhelming demand from the fans would be to have him back up and in the lineup. They didn't send him down and left him to building frustration which was evident in his play. That certainly doesn't seem like the best environment to develop a key prospect.

Keeping him in the NHL all year may not have been the best decision, but I don't see how it's a horrible one. If sending him down would've been moreso to boost his confidence, I'm not sure that was needed. Tage is doing fine for being a project.

That's the closest I've ever seen you come to criticizing the current front office. That Tage went down and did the right things, said the right things, and more importantly played the right was is a credit to him. That it may have been possible to send him down, get him a confidence boost and time to work out some of his issues and then return him to the lineup late is the point. They did not handle him in the way everyone else was handled (except perhaps Mittelstadt, whose terrible play also meritted a move to the farm to work on his play too).

I think people want it to be a crippling decision for the sake of being "the icing on the cake" for this trade very badly for odd personal reasons. It doesn't all have to go back to the trade... but I get why fans here think it should/want it to.

Which crippling decision are you talking about? Most fans want to salvage what they can from the trade, for them to make the efforts to turn out the best results for Tage and the picks. There is no need to justify the terrible nature of the trade with any icing on the proverbial cake, it was the most lopsided trades this team has made since Dom left.

Seeing Tage round off the edges, to start making better decisions with the puck, learn when and where he should dangle, learn to get inside more, learn how to engage defensively. The part about the trade is trying to find whatever thin logic was being used to maintain his position in the lineup and on the NHL roster, not about seeing him fail as punctuation to Botterill's summer folly. The optics are not good.

 

[Dreakon13]

Pointing out that there isn't much hockey-related that kept him up on the team or that getting practice and in-game reps at the minor league level, which is a proven method of improving someone's game is... "having an axe to grind"?

Saying the only reason that makes sense is Botteril desperately trying to justify the trade/his job by keeping Tage up, is the "axe to grind". Occam's Razor, the simplest answer is that they felt Tage had the most to gain by learning in the NHL.

The point that he kept the spot even though he was not good at what he was doing in the lineup was the issue of the post. Hearing Botterill lament that he would have liked to have seen players like O'Regan or Smith in bigger roles in Buffalo was particularly frustrating since both went on solid runs in Rochester that are easy to reference as a merit recall for such a look. The opportunity to make internal roster moves and take a moment for evaluation was again lost. That's a bad look, especially when the guy who can make those decisions comments on it like he had no power in the situation.

Given the team's comments about doing thing "the right way" and internal competition, looks odd in light of the free pass his terrible play was given. If they'd sent him down when he was sitting out games and he went on even a fraction of the pace he did to end the season with the Amerks, the overwhelming demand from the fans would be to have him back up and in the lineup. They didn't send him down and left him to building frustration which was evident in his play. That certainly doesn't seem like the best environment to develop a key prospect.

I never got the sense of "evident frustration" in Tage's game. At least no more so than any other player this year. We already knew Tage can play at the AHL level, he needs to learn the NHL. Like I said, I don't think confidence is necessarily an issue with him. Everything I've seen, the kid has a good attitude. I don't think the team saw a need to send him to Rochester to fix his shattered psyche.

Whether that's in contradiction to something they've said before in regards to earning spots or open competition or whatever... I dunno. I'm sure they'll do whatever they feel is best for a player, especially a key prospect like Tage, versus going through every interview/presser the last two years prior to making/not making roster moves to ensure they don't contradict themselves in the fans eyes.

Which crippling decision are you talking about? Most fans want to salvage what they can from the trade, for them to make the efforts to turn out the best results for Tage and the picks. There is no need to justify the terrible nature of the trade with any icing on the proverbial cake, it was the most lopsided trades this team has made since Dom left.

The crippling (but not really) decision of leaving Tage up this year.

"Most fans" do, sure. "Most fans on HF" want the trade to be such a visibly appalling failure that Botteril gets fired tomorrow. And the fact that Botteril isn't going to be fired tomorrow just means another layer of icing needs to be added.

 

[Chainshot]

Saying the only reason that makes sense is Botteril desperately trying to justify the trade/his job by keeping Tage up, is the "axe to grind". Occam's Razor, the simplest answer is that they felt Tage had the most to gain by learning in the NHL.


I never got the sense "evident frustration" in Tage's game. At least no more so than any other player this year. We already knew Tage can play at the AHL level, he needs to learn the NHL. Like I said, I don't think confidence is necessarily an issue with him. Everything I've seen, the kid has a good attitude. I don't think the team saw a need to send him to Rochester to fix his shattered psyche.

Whether that's in contradiction to something they've said before in regards to earning spots or open competition or whatever... I dunno. I'm sure they'll do whatever they feel is best for a player, especially a key prospect like Tage, versus going through every interview/presser the last two years prior to making/not making roster moves to ensure they don't contradict themselves in the fans eyes.


The crippling (but not really) decision of leaving Tage up this year.

"Most fans" do, sure. "Most fans on HF" want the trade to be such a visibly appalling failure that Botteril gets fired tomorrow. And the fact that Botteril isn't going to be fired tomorrow just means another layer of icing needs to be added.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

 

[Jim Bob]

I never got the sense of "evident frustration" in Tage's game. At least no more so than any other player this year. We already knew Tage can play at the AHL level, he needs to learn the NHL. Like I said, I don't think confidence is necessarily an issue with him. Everything I've seen, the kid has a good attitude. I don't think the team saw a need to send him to Rochester to fix his shattered psyche.

I would love to know what you meant by this.

Prior to this season, Thompson had 9 goals and 20 points in 46 regular season AHL games and 2 goals and 3 points in 10 AHL playoff games.

Those numbers are on par with what Alex Nylander had put up in the AHL entering this season and I doubt that too many people would have felt comfortable with how Nylander had played in the AHL to that point.

 

[DJN21]

Agreed, unless Oregan criscuolo porter leier are coming back, that forward core is going to be a crater

this is more important than tage...

 

[sabremike]

Saying the only reason that makes sense is Botteril desperately trying to justify the trade/his job by keeping Tage up, is the "axe to grind". Occam's Razor, the simplest answer is that they felt Tage had the most to gain by learning in the NHL.


I never got the sense of "evident frustration" in Tage's game. At least no more so than any other player this year. We already knew Tage can play at the AHL level, he needs to learn the NHL. Like I said, I don't think confidence is necessarily an issue with him. Everything I've seen, the kid has a good attitude. I don't think the team saw a need to send him to Rochester to fix his shattered psyche.

Whether that's in contradiction to something they've said before in regards to earning spots or open competition or whatever... I dunno. I'm sure they'll do whatever they feel is best for a player, especially a key prospect like Tage, versus going through every interview/presser the last two years prior to making/not making roster moves to ensure they don't contradict themselves in the fans eyes.


The crippling (but not really) decision of leaving Tage up this year.

"Most fans" do, sure. "Most fans on HF" want the trade to be such a visibly appalling failure that Botteril gets fired tomorrow. And the fact that Botteril isn't going to be fired tomorrow just means another layer of icing needs to be added.

Here's the thing: by keeping him up and force feeding him into the lineup to be wrecked and embarrassed on a nightly basis all that was acomplished was making our whole fanbase see him as a flop, and he's going to have to work to get rid of that taint. If the minute they saw he couldn't cut it at this level they sent him to Rochester and he had a great season the way he would be viewed right now would be a complete 180. Botts did him no favors by keeping him in Buffalo.

 

[Dreakon13]

I would love to know what you meant by this.

Prior to this season, Thompson had 9 goals and 20 points in 46 regular season AHL games and 2 goals and 3 points in 10 AHL playoff games.

Those numbers are on par with what Alex Nylander had put up in the AHL entering this season and I doubt that too many people would have felt comfortable with how Nylander had played in the AHL to that point.

I suppose I would consider that "playing" at the AHL level.

And I don't think people have a *ton* of issue with Nylander's production, especially for his age. The effort/attitude was always the bigger question mark. Exemplified by him getting benched in the playoffs last year.

Here's the thing: by keeping him up and force feeding him into the lineup to be wrecked and embarrassed on a nightly basis all that was acomplished was making our whole fanbase see him as a flop, and he's going to have to work to get rid of that taint. If the minute they saw he couldn't cut it at this level they sent him to Rochester and he had a great season the way he would be viewed right now would be a complete 180. Botts did him no favors by keeping him in Buffalo.

I think you're holding your opinions, or even that of HF posters, in a little too high of regard. He probably (hopefully) never really see's what we say. From the perspective of confidence, as long as he didn't feel wrecked or embarrassed, and is/was working to get better, and the coaching staff is/was working with him... that's what matters.

It's funny, the people on here posting about putting him in Rochester to shelter him from the negativity are the same ones calling the kid a "flop" after one season and hound him about getting "wrecked and embarrassed on a nightly basis".

 

[Jim Bob]

I suppose I would consider that "playing" at the AHL level.

And I don't think people have a *ton* of issue with Nylander's production, especially for his age. The effort/attitude was always the bigger question mark. Exemplified by him getting benched in the playoffs last year.

There is a big difference between "playing" in the AHL and a player having developed enough at the AHL level to be ready for promotion to the NHL.

I didn't see anything from Thompson's first full pro season last year nor in training camp this year that led me to believe that he was ready for full time NHL duty this season. And I was hardly alone in that opinion.

He should have been treated in much the same way that Olofsson was treated, IMO.